| Author | Message | ||
     Benm2 |
Sport: I hope to reduce my defecit on the front straights this winter. However, money will keep me from erasing it. Personally, I like that you can purchase "race ready" motorcycles, that are mass-produced. You can get far closer to "leading edge" performance with far fewer dollars with a MOTORCYCLE than you can with a car. Also, I don't know that "real" racing motorcycles last any longer than "converted" streetbikes. You don't see many TZ's for sale without "extensive spares". My tube-framer is now "retro", and I get "thumbs-up" attention at the track. And, since its an anomoly, I don't need to concern myself with being at the leading edge of the 600 (or 1000)cc superstock classes, where last years machine fights it out for 25th position. Since that's where I'll be anyway, I might as well have some fun! Ben | ||
| José_quiñones |
Roger, that's not the point I was trying to make. I meant that the MotoGP rules do not allow titanium and other exotic materials to be used in their "racing prototype" bikes & engines, to help keep the costs down. here's the section in the FIM rulebook:
edited by josé_quiñones on December 13, 2003 | ||
| José_quiñones |
So I see Ducati has been testing their 749R, doing 1:38.9 laps with it at Valencia. Ducati's press release says "This was not far off the times recorded by the best Supersport riders in the Valencia championship opener earlier in the year." I guess if Ducati considers a time that would have qualified the 749R 18th in the starting grid last year to be considered "not far off" then more power to them. | ||
| Blake |
JQ, You are hopeless. Reality for you is merely a concept to be argued. The rider of course makes no difference in your mind... Unless of course the debate in favor of your point requires so. | ||
| Blake |
Do you want to bet against Ducati given a 25% displacement equalization? Personally, I think that would be extremely S T U P I D. | ||
| Featheredfiend |
"Do you want to bet against Ducati given a 25% displacement equalization?" They had the same displacement advantage with the 748R. Please check its' record in World SuperSport. feathered | ||
| José_quiñones |
There are some handicaps even the best rider can not overcome. Lorenzo Lanzi is not some chump that Ducati picked up off the street, he finished second last year in the European Superstock Championship on his 999S. However, when the best effort that the FACTORY can produce with a competitive rider is lagging back at the bottom of the grid, you have to question whether the effort is worth it. I wish them luck, they have a lot of work to do. Maybe they can rev it to 16,000 rpm instead. | ||
| Blake |
Feathered, It was not too many years ago that the 748 won the WSS championship. According to Jeff Nash, the 749s, especially their heads, are a huge improvement over the 748. If Ducati takes the 749 racing, you can bet against them if you like. Given their record, that might be foolish, about as foolish in my opinion as betting against HRC. So JQ, Ducati takes their 749 out for a pre-season test, and you spin that into... "the best effort that the FACTORY can produce with a competitive rider is lagging back at the bottom of the grid". Somehow, I don't think that will be the Ducati factory's "best effort." I'd be more inclined to quote what the 22 year old racer, the Ducati man himself said...
edited by blake on December 16, 2003 | ||
| Blake |
Just finished reading the MO Track Review of the new Kawi ZX10R. (To all cheapskates: Please subscribe to MO; I ain't violating MO's copyright.) The thing sounds tough. In stock form it engages a soft rev limiter at 13 grand. It has a stroke of 55mm. They must be lying. That would result in a mean piston speed of 4692 fpm and for a stock street bike. That is well over, specifically 17.3% over, the aforementioned limit of 4000 fpm espoused by some as unsurpassable for a street machine. Is Kawi lying? | ||
| Blake |
Don't know how I missed this one... José presumes to speak for Blake:
JQ, you obviously do not understand my criticism of the AMAPR SS rules at all. Simply allow other configurations of machines having comparable performance to race. I don't want rules that revolve around any one brand or any one configuraton of machine. But that is exactly what you have in AMAPR SS. What I want is an end to the unfair displacement limited class definition. In fact the FIM which you hold up as opposing my idea of fair rules in fact allow 750cc liquid cooled twins in their SS class. Why doesn't AMAPR do likewise? My gripe is that ALL comparably performing machines ought to be allowed to race. You know, like FUSA allows? How you could so grossly misintereprete my simply stated opinion repeated so often on this issue boggles my mind. Are you really that moronic? I don't think so. I think instead you choose to twist and spin my words any way you see fit to bolster your own views, and that is unfortunate. Why not let them race in SS? FX is a good start, but why not let the 749R into SS in America? Why the hell not? Could it be that AMAPR executive management are corrupt and are serving the wishes of one select group? Is that possible? Yep. edited by blake on December 16, 2003 | ||
| Featheredfiend |
"It was not too many years ago that the 748 won the WSS championship." 1997, I believe. That's a long time to be away from the hunt. The 749 represents Ducati's first upgrade to a lagard. They have not fielded a factory attempt in WSS for several years. That can have a stifling effect on a governing body's decision. Why should they make allowances for a manufacturer that has not "stayed the course" and shown willingness to compete and improve the breed? It is Ducati's responsibility to prove their mettle. If they are as successful in WSS as you seem to think, then your argument is credible. As it stands now, though, you're only asking for a Head Start program for an under-achieving, under-powered motorcycle. A very liberal idea. feathered | ||
| Blake |
Yep, won it and also took 4th place 1997. The 748 took 2nd in WSS in 2000. That'd be just three years ago. It is not up to Ducati to prove shit. AMAPR is corrupt and refuses to let them race in AMAPR SS. Simple as that. Ducati needs to prove themselves to AMAPR? BAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!! That's a good one. I'm not asking for shit. Just let them race in the class in which they belong. Ducati is underachieving? BAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH!!!!! Fair is fair. Let them race. That ain't liberal. It is simply just. | ||
| Featheredfiend |
Well, I reread my post again to see if it reads the way you have stated. It doesn't. Specifically, I stated the 749 was under etc. The SS class has been around for some time. Why now is it important that the 749 be included? Where is Ducati's role in this? I think you are making an argument for something Ducati does not want on their plate at this time. They haven't fielded a factory team in AMA SBK since Vance/Hines. What past effort has Ducati made to be included in Supersport? I doubt very little. feathered | ||
| José_quiñones |
They belong in FX not SS. If you read the World Supersport rules, you would see that they are very similar to the new AMA FX rules. This makes it easier for Ducati because the can prepare a similar spec bike for both series. Another plus for Ducati is that in AMA FX they can get their bike down to 350 pounds if possible, instead of having to carry an extra ten pounds over the 600's like they have to do in WSS. Ducati will have a full Factory effort in the AMA this year in Superbike. If they were serious about getting in AMA SS they would announce a full factory AMA FX 749R and let the AMA know that they "intend" to compete in SS as soon as the AMA allows them to do so. So far no Factory or Factory Backed Ducati 749R AMA FX team has been presented. Maybe in a few years. Do WSS rules permit air cooled bikes or give them the "allowances" that the AMA has given them in FX? Why not? I think you know the answer. | ||
| José_quiñones |
I said 4500, not 4000. Kawasaki is not the only one to venture into those upper piston speeds, the new R1 and the Aprilia Mille also reach speeds in that range, which were were unheard of on a street bike until this year. However, this is still a far cry from 5317 fpm for a stock based "racing" 749R Ducati. | ||
| Blake |
No, it isn't. 5317/4691 represents a mere 13.3% increase in mean piston speed and a 28.5% increase in the resulting stress levels. That ain't a problem for a group like Ducati Corse racing. Not even close. And there you go again with your "stock based" descripto; you really don't understand the difference between a racing engine and a stock engine. But you believe as you wish. I'm tired of arguing for the sake of arguing. I believe Mr. Nash. Feathered, You didn't say that "Ducati" was underachieving. You said that the "749" was underachieving. I stand corrected.  You know, I'm sick of the attitude and bogus logic that proffers that a potential competitor must first appeal for not only fairness and equity but mere inclusion in the class rules before they should expect due consideration. I guarantee you that if AMAPR allowed 750cc twins in SS, there would be people campaigning 749R's in the class in short order, whether the factory enters their own team in the series or not. Claiming that fair rules and even mere inclusion in the applicable class must be preceded by their demand is like saying that a woman applying for a job must ask beforehand to receive fair and equal compensation. That is bullshit. You don't think Ducati and Ducati racers have asked to be allowed into AMAPR SS? I'd be very damned surprised if they hadn't. | ||
| José_quiñones |
According to Amasuperbike.com the redline of the ZX10 is "only" 12,500 rpm, so with a 55 mm stroke you get 4511 fpm. Check you numbers. | ||
| José_quiñones |
Look, the reason Ducati is not allowed in AMA SS is the same reason that air cooled bikes are not included in TT races or in the World, Brittish, Japanese, Italian or Spanish Supersport classes: the people making the rules don't feel like including them, for whatever reason. Ducati and Buells are allowed in AMA FX, Buells are totally unrestricted engine and chassis wise, yet you still complain about not being allowed in SS where they would be severely restricted and rendered completely uncompetitive. Let's wait to see what happens when racing starts, if the Ducati/Buell FX bikes do lap times that are competitive with the leading SS lap times, you have a point. I don't think they are there yet. | ||
| José_quiñones |
And since you like conspiracy theories, why did the 748 get allowed in to WSS in the first place? Well, let's see what we know: 1. The owners of WSBK just decided to go with a spec tire for everybody next yar, they chose Pirelli, and Italian company. 2. They have set up the rules so that a certain VTwin from a Certain Italian company has dominated the series since it began. 3. The owners of WSBK are named FLAMINNI, they're ITALIAN, if you didn't know. Coincidence? I don't think so... | ||
| Benm2 |
You think so? Maybe a few rich guys. The non-factory riders fighting it out for 13th place probably don't have the free cash to support a Ducati racing effort. Honzukasakihas are much cheaper. | ||
| Blake |
"the people making the rules don't feel like including them, for whatever reason." DUH! And it is the motivation behind that "reason" that is simply wrong and flies in the face of what the AMA is supposed to be all about. Your logic is laughable... The 748 was included in WSS racing long before the current tire issue reared its head. So much for that point, whatever it was. Funny, I thought Colin Edwards was riding a Honda when he won the WSB championships in 2000, and 2002. Then Honda dropped the series in 2003. Duc had the best rider in Carl Fogharty. That said, I'd also say that Ducati caught the competition sleeping with the entry of their 996 into the fray. They proved so in AMA SB as well. I do agree that the IL4s needed some help in getting up to speed with the twins. Gee, they just adjusted the rules to do just that. And they dont' exclude IL4s in either WSB or WSS. Imagine an Italian arranging the rules so that Italian motorcycles can compete in all the classes offered in the premiere Italian racing series. Imagine if AMAPR would do likewise with some aim towards continuity and integrity. Maybe they are heading that way with the new FX class. I sure hope so. The AMAPR SS class is the only one that I know that excludes all other configurations of competitive machine. Basically if it ain't an IL4, it ain't gonna be racing in AMAPR SS. They need to update the rules to allow all comparably powered machines to race. Ben, I agree, there won't be many 749s being campaigned by privateers, but I bet there would be a few. Isn't that sufficient to allow them to race. Let them battle the other privateers. There's some good racing in that pack. Too bad we don't often see it. You should hear some of the stories about what goes on back there, some real intense and sometimes dirty competition. | ||
| Blake |
JQ, Did you see the statement recently that the 600 SS machines are hitting over 170 mph on the banking at Daytona? What kind of HP would that take I wonder.  yep, those are "stock based" racing machines. Not street bikes. | ||
| José_quiñones |
I thought that was all about aerodynamics like you were claiming about Thunderbike, Blake? A stock CBR600RR goes 162 mph, so with lighter weight, more horsepower (not as much as you think) and proper gearing 170 is no problem.
That's exactly what happened with World Superbike, and the choice of an Italian tire company supplying spec tires further proves the point. The Italian Owned WSBK series is by Italians, for Italian Companies. Therefore the rules were set up so Vtwins were allowed 250 extra cc's in Superbike, and 150 extra cc's in Supersport. Gee, who is the only company that sells both of these bikes, Ducati, an Italian company, what a coincidence! Meanwhile, those same Italians EXCLUDE air cooled bikes like the all-american Buells from racing in World Supersport. In any other venue that would be called favoritism or at worst racial discrimination. You want to call it "integrity" then that word loses its meaning. Meanwhile the AMA has just created a class that includes the 600's the 750 twins and unrestricted 1350cc air cooled bikes and all you want to do is complain about Supersport. BTW, the reason Honda won was because they didn't like the rules, so they built a better Ducati than Ducati, proved their point about the rules, then left. Just like they did in AMA Dirt Track in the 80's. | ||
| Benm2 |
I wonder if Colin Edwards would take issue with that. The final race of World Superbike for that season will remain in my mind as some of the finest racing I've ever seen. That 2002 season was what world-class racing should be, an epic battle between (at least two) superpowers, bikes & riders alike. That's currently missing from the top classes. Rays of hope for this year? Eric Bostrum on a 999R, Rossi on a Yamaha, Edwards on an RCV, and yes, Buell's in FX. | ||
| Henrik |
The final race of World Superbike for that season will remain in my mind as some of the finest racing I've ever seen. I agree - simply outstanding. It had both me and Melissa jumping up'n down screaming (and I'm usually pretty laid back and relaxed  ) Now, if we could get a rule book that would ensure racing of that caliper, we'd be all set. Henrik | ||
| Blake |
I thought that was all about aerodynamics like you were claiming about Thunderbike, Blake? Of course aerodynamics affects the top speed of a motorcycle, so does its power. A racing motorcycle with less drag will be faster than one with comparable or even less power but more aerodynamic drag. If rider/motorcycle-"A" has 10% less aerodynamic drag than rider/motorcycle-"B", but they each have the same rwhp, how much faster will "A" be compared to "B" wrt peak speed? Answer... 3.2% faster (cube root of 110% or 1.11/3). But that is not germaine to our current duscussion... what kind of HP would be required to push a 600 SS racing machine/rider to speeds of 170 mph on the banking at Daytona? You see the RWHP required to reach peak speed is proportional to the velocity cubed. So if a stock CBR600RR will peak out at 160 mph with 105.4 rwhp it would take (170/160)3*105.4=126.4 rwhp for it too peak out at 170 mph. Considering that the bikes at Daytona never have a chance to reach their ultimate peak velocity, it can be stated with confidence that they are putting down power in the 130 rwhp range or better. See how logic and rational thought can bring resolution to an otherwise unresolvable heated debate? (An Italian arranging the rules so that Italian motorcycles can compete) is exactly what happened with World Superbike, and the choice of an Italian tire company supplying spec tires further proves the point." That is one huge leap. Not sure how a decision to go to spec tires indicts the class rules of WSS? Oh wait, the WSS class is dominated currently by Japanese machines. I think your logic is grossly lacking if you are trying to contend that FIM is biased in favor of Italian racing machines. "The Italian Owned WSBK series is by Italians, for Italian Companies. Therefore the rules were set up so Vtwins were allowed 250 extra cc's in Superbike, and 150 extra cc's in Supersport. Gee, who is the only company that sells both of these bikes, Ducati, an Italian company, what a coincidence!" No, actually that is simply even handed and fair rules making that allows different types of engine to compete with parity. As you well know AMA SB rules also allowed a 250cc advantage to twin cylinder machines. How many of the AMA SB championships between 1999 and 2002 were won by IL4 750cc machines versus 1000cc twins? In each case (AMA and FIM) the class displacement rule giving twins an additional 250cc's displacement was not enacted to provide a competitive advantage to the twins. It was enacted to bring parity to two differently configured racing machines so that competition on the track would be as even and fierce as possible between two differently configured racing machines. In your mind you define "fair" wrt class displacement rules as "equal displacement" when in reality "fair" means "towards achieving parity in performance." "Meanwhile, those same Italians EXCLUDE air cooled bikes like the all-american Buells from racing in World Supersport." That sucks I agree. I'd like to see rules more along the lines of FUSA. I do agree however that all entrants would need to be subject to the same rules wrt stock bodywork and such. I appreciate the efforts of AMAPR to give special consideration to Buell, an American motorcyle, so that they can field their current model sportbike and be competitive against other more stock oriented machines. It is an American series, and if necessary, American motorcycles should be given special consideration to allow them to compete, NOT to give them an undue advantage, just to allow them to compete in relative parity with the other types of machines on the track. You know, like FUSA does. Set the displacement limits according to each type of engine and it's capacity to make power. Pretty friggin simple ain't it. "In any other venue that would be called favoritism or at worst racial discrimination. You want to call it "integrity" then that word loses its meaning." BAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!! "Racial discrimination"????!!! BAHAHAHAHA!!! It simply is not favoritism to enact rules to the best of your ability towards achieving racing parity among different configurations of engines. It is not unfair to allow all willing competitors to race while enacting rules to keep each competitor within a narrow envelope of performance so that none have any significant advantage over the others. That is not bias, that is diversity and fairness. "Meanwhile the AMA has just created a class that includes the 600's the 750 twins and unrestricted 1350cc air cooled bikes and all you want to do is complain about Supersport." I actually have a LOT more that I want to do than "complain about Supersport". Again, I simply call it like I see it. The AMA SS class rules are restrictive and exclusionary. WSS class rules are 100% better in that respect. Both could use improvement in the mold of FUSA class rules. How cool would it be to see 600cc IL4's, 750cc twins, 1000cc desmo air-cooled two valve twins, and 1200cc air-cooled two valve pushrod twins all mixing it up at the same time? "BTW, the reason Honda won was because they didn't like the rules, so they built a better Ducati than Ducati, proved their point about the rules, then left. Just like they did in AMA Dirt Track in the 80's." So Collin narrowly came from behind and won the 2003 WSB championship because his motorcyle was better than Troy's? BAAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!! Newsflash for the egregiously simple minded race fan... Bikes don't win races; HP doesn't win races; tires don't win races. Teams and a combination of all the above is what wins races and above all championships. You know that. I know you know that. Why are you being such a bitch? Do you hate me or something? LOL! Dang man, this means nothing in the scheme of things. Chill out. It's all good. edited by blake on December 19, 2003 | ||
| Featheredfiend |
"How cool would it be to see 600cc IL4's, 750cc twins, 1000cc desmo air-cooled two valve twins, and 1200cc air-cooled two valve pushrod twins all mixing it up at the same time?" Those desmo air-cooled two valve twins will mixing it up by themselves in the back. You know, this debate doesn't make a blip on the Duc forums. Ducati's in WSBK, WSS, AMA SBK, MotoGp. All this from a company that sells one bike for every ten Harleys. I still contend they have no interest, at the moment, for contending AMA SS. Blake, both you and JQ make valid points, but the only way to ensure companies, like Ducati, maintain a high profile in motor racing, is by doing what some us have done - buy the product. You have only invested your emotions. Get off the fence. Get that 999 to move your big rear end and enjoy the fun. That's what it's all about. | ||
| Featheredfiend |
"BTW, the reason Honda won was because they didn't like the rules, so they built a better Ducati than Ducati, proved their point about the rules, then left. Just like they did in AMA Dirt Track in the 80's." So the CX boys and the RC boys can form a "lonely hearts club"? feathered | ||
| José_quiñones |
Of course the rider is the most important ingredient, but Colin's excellent riding was helped by the fact that he had a 1000cc RC51 Vtwin that took advantage of the rules instead of the 750cc V4 RC45 he had ridden previously. John Kocinski and his RC45 was the last 750cc bike to win the Superbike Championship in 1997. It's been 1000cc Vtwins ever since. | ||
| Blake |
Feathered, Variety is the spice of life and racing rules for any series sponsored by the AMA should be "fair and inclusive" or "American" one of the two. José, I certainly agree that the IL4's needed some help to regain parity with the twins. No argument on that point whatsoever. I had hoped that they would simply get a 50cc displacement boost. Time will tell if the approach taken by AMAPR and WSB will achieve the desired parity between twin and four cylinder superbikes. I sure hope it does. I'd hate to see Ducati be forced into developing a four cylinder street bike just to remain competitive in racing. Let's look at the big picture though. Yes, in WSB the twins had their way with the 750cc IL4s. Not so in AMA SB though right? Would you not say that as far as their skill in racing a motorcycle that Fogarty, Edwards, Bayliss and their teams all outclassed the field in WSB? In the meantime did not B. Bostrom, Mladin, and Hayden do likewise in AMA SB? Mladin did so on a 750cc IL4 machine as recently as 2001. I just don't see a long term conspiracy of bias wrt twins over four cylinder machines. Have a great Holiday. Consider taking your bike to the track next year. Too much fun. |
