| Author | Message | ||
     Avc8130 |
I have been TRYING to research RRs to help unload the stator on my 09 CR as I am past warranty and would like to stave off expensive stator repairs. Here is what I have concluded so far: Compufire: -Widespread use of 55402 model on most bikes. -40A rating -Supposedly reduces heat production on stator, and stays cool itself. -Manufacture says NO application for Buell. -About $175 Cycle Electrics: -Some use of CE605 model. -50A rating -Supposedly reduces heat production on stator, however gets VERY hot itself. -Application for ANY modern 12v bike. -About $165 -Made in USA I am interested in preserving the stator as best as possible so the Shunt MOSFET does not interest me at all. Anyone have any more helpful information to compare these 2 models? ac | ||
| Tbowdre |
my compufire is working great. I think it is currently saving my custom rewind stator. However it is not cool, definitely warm.... boaderline hot. I also have a little computer fan that can switch on/off when sitting at a light or crazy hot days. Overall I would say your summary is accurate. todd | ||
| Sportster_mann |
I would say that either are acceptable, but it would be wise to mount the RR somewhere in the airflow, and not under the seat ... | ||
| Timebandit |
Hopefully it won't be too long before nobody cares about Compufire or Cycle Electric vregs because their technology will be rendered obsolete. Until then, what kind of regulator you really want to have is going to depend upon how much load you place on your electrical system. It's true that all shunt regulators make your charging system work at full output at all times, regardless of how much power you actually want from the charging system. The shunt regulator places 100% load on the charging system at all times. There's already been lots of discussion about how bad that is, so the idea to avoid a shunt regulator is a good one. The idea that a series regulator is a better alternative is gaining acceptance around here. That's good news, but the problem is that the "Series = Better" principle vastly over simplifies the situation. There are some situati.ons where a series regulator offers a marked improvement. There are other situations where a series regulator isn't any better than a shunt regulator. What?!?! It all depends on how much load you place on the charging system. If you're a racer, who runs without lighting, then the only load that you'll be placing on a series regulator would be that associated with running the bike's electronics. That's a GOOD situation. Then the series regulator isn't dealing with a lot of load. both the stator and the regulator will run cool. It's actually pretty easy to design a series regulator to handle low load situations like this one. If you're a winter rider, and you insist on loading the system to it's maximum with heated gear, then there may be no good solution. With a full load you will still be drawing the maximal amount of power through the stator. The series regulator will have to deal with maximal load conditions and it will get hot. From a practical standpoint, maximal load is maximal load, and a series regulator that's maximally loaded is no better than a shunt regulator. Another problem that comes along is that it's hard to design a series regulator that's able to withstand the thermal insult of a fully loaded charging system. Full loads make the regulator get hot, and thermal de-rating markedly shortens the life of the electronics inside. For full-load applications, you're just as well off with a shunt regulator. Most real-world riding / fair weather situations lie somewhere in between these two extremes. In addition to running the bike's electronics, you're running some lights, which are a heavy load, but you're not maximally loading the bike's charging system like you would with heated gear. Most electronic accessories like radar, GPS, iPod, etc. draw a negligible amount of power. This intermediate case is one where you'll benefit from a series regulator. How hot the regulator gets will be directly proportional to how much power you're asking the electrical system to generate -- how much load you place on the system. Under "normal" operating conditions any good series regulator should run cool. If it runs hot, it means that you're taxing the charging system -- both the stator and the regulator. With a heavy load the heat has to go somewhere, and the regulator is where it goes. Even a series regulator will get hot when it's heavily loaded. A better option yet is the switching regulator. It offers the ability to convert high volts / low amps into low volts / high amps. If properly designed it will run pretty cool no matter what the load is on the bike. This is the Holy Grail of regulation solutions. Unfortunately, nobody's making one for bikes yet, but there are some guys who are working on it.  With a true switcher, you won't even need the oil cooling upgrade. By itself it should solve the problem for 2009 charging systems without having to buy the $900 upgrade kit. | ||
| Avc8130 |
Ok, so I need a switching regulator, but none exist.  | ||
| Timebandit |
Kinda reminds me of how I beat my head against the wall trying to locate OEM Accessory Connectors, and being told that I was inflexible and should be willing to accept a different option. | ||
| Avc8130 |
lol | ||
| Timebandit |
Yeah, it kinda sucks that such a great bike came with such a crappy stock charging system. To me it seems that lots of attention was given to making the bike a great performer, and not enough attention was given to some of the "little things" like the charging system. There are design problems in the charging system, and the end user is left to pick up the pieces from a compromised design. Unfortunately, the only choices that you have today are all imperfect solutions. We have to accept that, and the limitations that come with it. So what's the best solution available today? That will depend on how much anyone plans on loading down the bike's electrical system. Unfortunately, load is something that the engineering types keep talking about, and end users don't seem to talk about very often. I don't think there's enough good data to clearly identify one of those series regs as being better than the other. Free advice being worth every penny that you pay for it, here's what I think are the best options available today. (quoted from another thread on this topic): From a practical standoint, I'd use all the technology I could get my hands on. Today, this would mean buying a series regulator and being realistic about the loads you place on it, or the EBR stator kit with the cooling feature, or both. If/when a switching regulator hits the market, I can guarantee that I'll be the first kid on my block to have one. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/659669.html Unfortunately we're still learning what works and what doesn't. So your only options are to do your research, make a choice, pay your money, and take your chances. (Message edited by TimeBandit on November 27, 2011) | ||
| Parrick |
That's one of the best explanations that I have seen to date concerning the regulator debate. Thanks Bandit. Good perspective! | ||
| Avc8130 |
I can be VERY honest about my loads: Summer: MAYBE a cell phone/gps charger (negligible) Fall/Spring: Heated grips, MAYBE heated jacket/gloves Winter: Heated jacket/gloves/grips At this point, being out of warranty, I think my best bet is to pick up a Series RR and put it in the air stream. Then I put my faith in its 2 year warranty if it doesn't like my "loads". If the stator goes...I am out $900 out of pocket. ac | ||
| Timebandit |
It would be quite revealing if you could post the total wattage and/or current draw ratings for each piece of gear that you plan on running in the winter: lights, heated jacket, gloves, grips. | ||
| Avc8130 |
Heated grips: 40W Jacket liner: 90W Gloves: 12W ea, 24W total Lights are stock. ac | ||
| Timebandit |
OK, so far the heated stuff adds up to: 40 + 90 + 24 = 154. Are those the Buell facctory heated grips? No pants liner or seat warmer? | ||
| Avc8130 |
No, those are aftermarket heated grips. They are run through the accessory port so the ECM controls their power supply. No pants/butt warmer yet. ac | ||
| Timebandit |
Heated gear as listed so far is 154 watts. Let's suppose that you might need to turn on the bright lights. Then the "R" bike's lighting circuits uses about 171 watts: 70+70+5+5+21=171. Heated gear plus lights: 154 + 171 = 355 watts. That's a LOT of watts. We still haven't factored in how much power it takes to run the bike's electronics. I don't know that number. Anyone? | ||
| Avc8130 |
We still haven't factored in how much power it takes to run the bike's electronics. I don't know that number. Anyone? THAT has been a question for the ages. No one seems to know. Not sure how to figure it out either. I guess with an amp clamp you could by subtracting out the known lighting loads. That may be a lot of watts, but the Compufire is a 40A system and the Cycle Electric a 50A. Assuming ~13V, that would be 520W and 650W capability respectively. That assumes the stator/rotor is capable of keeping up. ac (Message edited by avc8130 on November 27, 2011) | ||
| Timebandit |
Well, if that question has come up before and it's still unanswered, then I guess the only way to know will be to take real-world test measurements. You ready to press the "hold" button on a clamp-on ammeter while you're redlining the bike at 10,500?  | ||
| Avc8130 |
Need something that logs. I think my Fluke will hold max/min. I don't have a clamp for it though. It can only handle 10A through the unit itself. ac | ||
| Timebandit |
When I talked to the Compufire guy, he told me that they sell their product with a 40A rating for harleys, but that the internals were actually rated for 60A. Maybe neither regulator is going to be the weak link in the chain, but with that much current going through them I'd expect either one to get pretty hot. I think the rotor/stator is going to be the limiting factor. Since we don't know the bike's operating wattage requirement, let's just call it "X". The 2008 stator is rated for a peak output of 432W @ 7000 RPM. In the real world you may not be riding at 7k in the winter. 400W might be a more reasonable number for us to work with. Nightsky generated some useful voltage and current data in one of the other threads. I converted his numbers into watts and plotted the power curve. At idle you only get about 260W out of the charging system, and you're going to be making perhaps 400W at 4000 RPM. Those experimental numbers seem to be in agreement with Buell's published specs for the bike. So let's do some math: To run the bike under the conditions we described, you'll need 355 + X watts, where X is the number of watts required just to run the bike's electronics. That number has to be less than 400W or power draw will exceed charging system output. 355 + x <= 400 X <= 45 This means that the total requirements of the bike have to be 45 watts or less, otherwise some of the other gear is going to have to be cycled off by the ECU controller of the Accessory Outlet for the bike to generate enough power to continue to operate properly. Bear in mind that we're now talking about running the stator continuously at 100% of it's rated output. When you're running at 100% of your rated output, a series regulator offers you absolutely no benefit in prolonging stator life. You might as well be running with a shunt regulator. This of course, assumes 100% load from the heated gear. The numbers wouldn't be as severe if you used PWM controllers to dial back the power demands from he heated gear. I'm still not too excited about beating the hell out of the stator on these bikes. Heated gear requires a LOT of watts, and we're not leaving much margin for error. If I were going to ride with all of this heated gear in the winter time, I'd leave my 1125 in the garage and ride my BMW. It's got a 750W alternator and could run the loads without batting an eye. | ||
| Avc8130 |
I hear ya, and I follow ya. Those heated gear ratings are at 100% high. I can't ride around like that or I am pretty sure I will burst into flames. I can't imagine the bike itself (ECM/sensors/etc) needs very much power. The sensors are all 5V signal. Firing the injectors is probably the biggest load to running the bike. 4k rpm is not a problem for me. I generally ride around 5k+ for a lot more reason than just the charging system. So let's summarize a tad: WITH the heated gear, I will most likely be well above the threshold where a series RR would be beneficial. In fact, I will most likely be running a large current through the RR. However, both models are designed/rated/warrantied for this loading provided they are placed in a location they can cool. WITHOUT the heated gear, a shunt regulator is NOT ideal. The bike/lights simply do not require a large percentage of the charging capability and it is empirically clear that the stator does not like running 100%. I think a series RR makes sense. In reality, the amount of time the bike is running with the large draws from the heated gear is MUCH less than the amount of time the bike is running with the "minimal" operating draws. ac | ||
| Timebandit |
Agree completely. The shunt regulator is bad, as it fully loads down your stator regardless of how much load you actually utilize. A series reg is worth installing. Without heated gear, a series vreg will markedly decrease the amount of power that the stator has to dissipate, thereby prolonging stator life. With heavy loads (full-on heated gear) you lose a lot of that benefit, and the closer you push the charging system toward maximum output, the more you tax your stator. At the upper limit it approaches the badness of having a shunt regulator. My only reservation would be that loading down the bike with heated gear might have an additive adverse effect on stator life -- especially on a 2009 charging system. But the series vreg still puts you in a better situation than the shunt reg, and your overall situation (stator life) will probably improve. Any condition that involves the series vreg will probably be better than the stock shunt regulator. If you are willing to accept an eventual failure, and your goal is just to put off the unavoidable major repairs as long as possible, while still using the bike however you want to use it, then I think you have a really good plan. Two of my other bikes have the same alternator that's used in a VW Jetta. They produce abundant power output -- so much that I've never had to stop to think about the charging system. I really like that. Things would be so much simpler if this bike didn't come with the type of charging system that you'd expect to find on a riding lawnmower. It's definitely a weak point in an otherwise fantastic machine. | ||
| Duphuckincati |
SO I just ordered the ebr kit, and would like to get a series r/r, but I'm not getting a sense of confidence in anything I'm reading here about any currently available. Any specific advice on which? Is the FH0012A unit worth tracking down vs the CE605? I have an email into Roadstercycle who sells these things. I'll get back to you all after I hear from them. (Message edited by duphuckincati on November 28, 2011) | ||
| Avc8130 |
The FH0012A is a SHUNT RR. ac | ||
| Jdugger |
> We still haven't factored in how much power it takes to run the bike's electronics. Not much. On my race bike, I've left it switched on all day and the battery was still at 13v. | ||
| Jdugger |
> If you're a racer, who runs without lighting, then the only load that you'll be > placing on a series regulator would be that associated with running the bike's electronics. Race bikes aren't having the stator failures. I know the shunt regulator *should* put gobs of heat back into the stator, and high revs should make it worse, but the reality is the stators don't fail on race bikes. Instead, it's just not been an issue at all, and that's with the tiny electrical loads race bikes present, which should make the problem worse. But it doesn't. | ||
| Timebandit |
You bring up some interesting points. I wonder if the race bikes are getting the kind of miles/hours put on them that the other bikes are getting. The effects of heat on the stator are cumulative. I don't know how many thousands of miles are logged on a typical race bike. I also wonder if race bikes experience better cooling. I imagine that you aren't lugging it around at low speed, or idling at a stoplight, stuck in slow moving traffic, and retaining heat. At speed you've got plenty of airflow for cooling. That is a MAJOR difference between street and race applications, and I'm sure that effective cooling plays a HUGE role in stator life. You're probably also using water instead of ethylene glycol. Water is a better coolant. Tiny electrical loads would NOT make the problem worse for the stator + series regulator combination. In fact, the results would be exactly the opposite. A race bike with a series regulator should have the longest stator life of any application; low charging demand, minimal dissipation of power through the stator and regulator. Minimal power demands for race applications are why the original bikes were designed with the low output stator. The only case where a race bike's light load would make things worse would be for the lifespan of a shunt regulator + stator combination. Because the race electronics consume so little power, the shunt regulator would have to shunt the majority of the stator's output. Shunt regulation is a really, really inefficient paradigm that is best avoided. (Message edited by TimeBandit on November 28, 2011) | ||
| Duphuckincati |
Avc, thanks for that clarification. Here's what I've heard from http://roadstercycle.com/ when asked about what's best for the 1125... 2 wire or 3 wire stator? If it's a 3 wire either Mosfet or series will work great. The series though is more for track day bikes as the headlights get unplugged and all that current has to go somewhere and the series deals with that better. The mosfet can be used with a 2 or 3 wire system and has no problems with any of the Buell setups. I probably have 10 to 15 Mosfets on the Buells within the last few months. Sounds like what has just been said here, but seems somewhere the Mosfet was not well regarded? (please know that I'm still of the Lucas electrics era so that's why all the questions for me. Thanks for all the help!) | ||
| Avc8130 |
I spoke to Jack from Roadster Cycle for quite some time about this. Sure, the Mosfet is PERFECT, if all you are trying to do is prolong the service life of a RR. On most other bikes, the shunt regulators are deemed "unreliable". Switching to the Mosfet shunt appears to be a permanent solution to a failing RR. HOWEVER, on a bike like ours, where we are trying to prolong the STATOR, switching to a Mosfet does NOTHING WHATSOEVER to help the stator. Switching to a series MIGHT. ac | ||
| Timebandit |
If that response came from a factory rep then I would question his competence. Maybe he's a sales guy and not an engineer, so he doesn't really know what he's talking about. Either way, some of the things that have been said would give me pause and make me lose confidence in the company. 0. Some shunt regualtors use MOSFETs instead of SCRs. They're still shunt regulators, and as AVC said, no shunt regulator will help us with the stator problem. 1. MOSFET is a type of semiconductor, not a type of regulator. They are purposefully using MOSFET as non-specific term to create ambiguity in understanding among the customers when it comes to knowing what they're buying. 2. MOSFET tells you nothing about what you're getting (series vs. shunt). He needs to come clean and tell you that what he's calling "MOSFET" is actually a shunt regualtor. 3. He's doing himself a disservice, because his series regulator undboubtedly has MOSFETS in it too. He's just purposefully mis-using the term MOSFET to make his shunt regulator sound more glamorous than it really is. 4. He is using "MOSFET" to try to dress up his shunt regulator. It's like putting lipstick on a pig. You don't want that. 5. When he's talking about putting his "MOSFET" (read:shunt) regulator on Buells, he's not being clear about whether he's talking about the 1125 or not. 6. When he says that "the series is more for track day bikes" that makes me wonder how well their series vreg is built. Here's why: Track bikes need less power -- So much less power that it's easy to design a series regulator with low power handling capabilities that will work well in track applications, but burn up in heavy-use street applications. The real test of an engineer's mettle is to design a series regulator that can handle large amounts of power (full stator output) without getting hot, overheating, and burning up. The fact that they're telling you that their series regulator is best for track use, and suggesting their shunt regulator for non-track use, makes me wonder if their series regulator will last in the high current street applications like AVC is talking about with heated gear. A series regulator would get pretty hot under those circumstances. I would pin him down on all of these points before sending them my money. To be fair, at least the Roadstercycle guy is answering your questions. When I asked these same questions of the Compufire guy, he stopped answering emails. (Message edited by TimeBandit on November 28, 2011) | ||
| Jdugger |
> I wonder if the race bikes are getting the kind of miles/hours put on them that the other bikes are getting. > The effects of heat on the stator are cumulative. Well, in general I'd say less, but it's worth noting I have more miles in the seat of an 1125r than nearly any other customer of Buell I know about (in excess of 75,000 at this point), and about 2/3rd of that is street. With 2 bikes having 09 motors, I also had vastly more miles on the original stator than almost anyone here experiencing failures. We know riding type has something to do with it. Sitting in traffic on one of these things is baaaaaaaad news. |
