| Author | Message | ||
     Bads1 |
Blake that info is from the 4th. The one I posted was fresh from yesterday. | ||
| Blake |
It provides more detail and insight into the issue for those interested, like me. ![: ]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif) | ||
| Jaimec |
Good thing they renewed Indianapolis: http://www.autoweek.com/article/20111116/FREE/1111 19900 | ||
| Trojan |
It would appear that Bernie Ecclestone is playing games and is more interested in the New Jersey race than Texas now. The contract seems to be a lot more convaluted and complicated than at first thought and there are far more parties involved thanj ust F1 and the track owners. I hope it comes off and they get their race, although if the track owners need F1 just to be viable then maybe they didn't do their sums properly before they started work. Donington Park suffered under the same illusion adn they went under. F1 is notorioulsy fickle and just because they race there one year doesn't guarantee future attendances. Just look at Turkey, and Ecclestone owns that track himself! F1 will always go to the highest bidder and is more interested in emerging markets than in traditional 'western' venues these days, and the likes of India and Moscow can pay what Bernie wants. The Texas track needs to be able to stand on its own two feet and then an F1 race there would be a bonus rather than a deal breaker. | ||
| Jaimec |
I don't follow those odd racing series where the competing vehicles have too many wheels but... from what I've heard on the sidelines, when dealing with Ecclestone, it always pays to have two or THREE contingency plans "just in case." Guess they didn't do their homework in Texas. | ||
| Bads1 |
http://moto-racing.speedtv.com/article/motogp-aust in-race-in-jeopardy | ||
| Trojan |
Back to MotoGP...... Suzuki definitely out until 2014 (if they return then remains to be seen). Bradl signs for 2 years with LCR  Aspar sign Aleix Espagero and possibly De Puniet for their CRT based MotoGP team (With Toni ELias allegedly ready to sign for their Moto2 outfit). Aprilia apparently building 'complete' CRT bikes for teams to lease? How does that possibly fit in with the CRT ethos and will Dorna allow it? 20 confirmed bikes/riders so far (with the prospect of 23-25 ultimately) looks like being the biggest grid since 2004 Now all we need to do is ditch the factory bikes and it get entertaining again | ||
| Jaimec |
What? You don't think the factory Hondas and Yamahas making fools of the CRT riders won't be entertaining? I predict TWO "races within races." Yamaha vs. Honda vs. Ducati, and EVERYBODY ELSE. The lead riders having to deal with a huge mass of lapped riders ought to make the finish interesting too. Can't wait to hear Stoner moaning about that in 2012. (Message edited by jaimec on November 18, 2011) | ||
| Trojan |
What? You don't think the factory Hondas and Yamahas making fools of the CRT riders won't be entertaining? About as entertaining as shooting fish in a barrel or hunting animals that don't fight back. In other words....no. Having been responsible for almost killing off the series by greed and by pricing everybody out, I am looking forward to seeing the factories having to toe the line and follow the rules set by someone else in future Now THAT will be entertaining 2013 looks to be the best year in a long time for MotoGP, so we just have to endure one more year of factory dominance. Moto2 will of course continue to be as entertaining as ever and give us something thrilling to watch until then Stoner will moan regardless of the rules or how much advantage he has. He has though threatened to pack it in if they do away with the factory teams, so at least that is something to look forward to | ||
| Jaimec |
I think Moto3 has the potential to be MORE entertaining than Moto2, simply because it WON'T have a spec engine. I just hate the entire thought of that. Means there will be NO development at all of the engine. Remember, the first part of the word "motorcycle" is MOTOR. Although technically, the only REAL place you see REAL "Motorcycles" racing is in the new electric racebike series popping up all over the place. Everybody else races "Engine Cycles," but that's neither here nor there. | ||
| Jimidan |
"I think Moto3 has the potential to be MORE entertaining than Moto2, simply because it WON'T have a spec engine." It is the spec engine that makes Moto2 SOOOooo entertaining (read: close, competitive, exciting). I guess as a purist that the lack of engine development in this class could be a sticking point, but remember that just leaves more money available for development of everything else on the bike. The spec engine allows the participation of all of those non-factory teams that would not be in there competing if they had to shoulder the massive expense of engine development. If there was not a spec engine, then Honda would buy that class championship just like it did in MotoGP...i.e., he who spends the most money wins. As it is, Moto2 is almost as exiting to watch as Daytona Sportbike...almost. | ||
| 46champ |
As it is, Moto2 is almost as exiting to watch as Daytona Sportbike...almost. And the key word is almost and Daytona sportbike is done without spec engines. | ||
| Blake |
Matt, Are you really expecting factory dominance to disappear because of a change in rules? Since when has that ever happened? The factories that choose to compete will always have the best riders and the best performing machines. Look no further than WSBK and AMA SBK for confirmation of that. Is this MotoGP or club racing? I don't understand the dim attitude towards factory efforts in general in MotoGP. That is the ONE series where they should be able to flex their money and tech. I don't get it, on one hand you argued against the AMA adopting more street oriented tech rules, but then on the other are eager to see MotoGP do the same. Arguing is fun, but geesh. It wasn't MotoGP that lost the grid, it was tough times and not so much excess cash on hand for some of the teams. That hopefully won't last forever and all will be good again. Besides, from what I read, the biggest concern is the racing at the front. If Ducati hadn't gone wrong and if Honda hadn't nailed their machine, we'd have had PLENTY of competitions for race wins. It's racing mate. Sometimes one machine or one team finds the magic formula and has the rider or riders to prove it. Sometimes, it's more equitable. I think the preoccupation with rules is baloney. Let the teams race. Two wheels and anything goes. You want better parity, assign cumulative weight to the racer/bike that wins. Freedom is best. | ||
| Blake |
>>> Daytona sportbike is done without spec engines. What???  Care to explain that logic? | ||
| Jaimec |
I think he was pointing out that Daytona Sport Bike doesn't use spec engines, but still has close, exciting racing. Jimidan was saying the reason Moto2 was so exciting was BECAUSE of the spec engine. 46champ put the lie to that statement. | ||
| Fuzzy |
generally stay out of these things, and didn't have time to watch more than one this year, but have to agree with blake here. motoGP (and F1, daytona prototypes, etc) is about development not close racing, whoever can put the best package together wins. i love watching somebody running away from the field because they figured out something nobody else did. next year everyone else is doing it or it gets outlawed. oval pistons, big bang, vacuum cleaners, turbines, 3 rotor rotaries, even hanging off! faster is better, then figure out how make the money back in production! rules should allow some room, shouldn't even have a min. weight, should be a min. strength or something. "if it breaks when the elephant sits on it, you can't ride it" ought to work for that | ||
| Blake |
Thanks Jaimie, "done" as in "accomplished", not as in " "finished". | ||
| Trojan |
Are you really expecting factory dominance to disappear because of a change in rules? Since when has that ever happened? It happened throughout the 1960's and early 1970's (with the exception of MV Augusta) after Honda pulled out of GP racing in the late 1960's. At that time a privateer could buy an 'over the counter' TZ250/350 or even 500 and expect to compete at the front if the rider was good enough. It wasn't MotoGP that lost the grid, it was tough times and not so much excess cash on hand for some of the teams. Wrong. The decline for MotoGP started well before the current recession, and has only been excacerbated by it. The factory monopoly of good bikes and their vice like grip of th erulebook has ensured that racing has become far to expencive for private teams to even hope to compete on anything near level terms. Aprilia single handedly killed the 250 class (much to the delight of HOnda) by forcing private teams to pay millions of Euros in lease fees if they hoped to get close to teh front of that grid, adn now Honda/Yamaha/Ducati have done the same to the MotoGP grid by pricing everyone out of the game. I am all for factory teams in racing provided they filter the technolgy down at realistic prices to other teams, but this hasn't happened at all during the 4 stroke era. Honda agreed to supply engines to Kenny Roberts for a few seasosn, but they didn't want to do it and soon found a way to get out of doing so, and no other factory has offered or tried to resolve the situation since by supplyingt engines at reasonable cost. All of the big factories have been happy to watch MotoGP reduce to a farcical event where every race starter can score world championship points so long as they can stay upright, which is ridiculous. I was a 'purist' until a few years ago and was one who bemoaned the loss of the 250 class when Moto2 was announced. However I and plenty of others have been converted to the Moto2 format simply because it allows so many different teams and riders to fight for wins, something that 250 or MotoGP cannot hope to claim in recent memory. I truly hope that CRT is the way forward, although Aprilia seem to have found a loophole and will ruin the whole concept if allowed to lease complete bikes to private teams. Hopefully Dorna will put a stop to that. Jimidan was saying the reason Moto2 was so exciting was BECAUSE of the spec engine. 46champ put the lie to that statement. Moto2 is 120% more exciting to watch than MotoGP at the moment, and has been for 2 years. The engine involved doesn't even enter into the equation and once you start watching the racing nobody really cares. I don't get it, on one hand you argued against the AMA adopting more street oriented tech rules, but then on the other are eager to see MotoGP do the same. My argument against the AMA was more to do with moving away from World Superbike rules so that domestic superbike championships were no longer 'in step' with WSB. However they have pretty much all done it now, so I have to wonder who or what will bring everyone back into some kind of conformity in the future. Personally I think that the WSB series will die out and be incorporated into MotoGP before long if the new owners have their way. There is not enough money at the top of the sport to support two separate world championship series for much longer. That would leave domestic superbike series to do their own thing. I certainly don't want to see MotoGP more 'street' oriented, and that isn't going to happen with CRT chassis rules or even spec ECU's. The bikes will still be prototypes and engineers can soncentrate on chassis development rather than spending millions on engines that nobody can afford to buy. | ||
| Jaimec |
Instead they'll spend millions on chassis, suspension and electronics that no one can afford, right? | ||
| Blake |
Repeat: Are you really expecting factory dominance to disappear because of a change in rules? "Except for MV"...  MV won every championship from 1956 through 1974. "Except for MV"? Please. The idea that a rules change will eliminate factory dominance is just incredibly improbable. | ||
| Jimidan |
46champ sez: "As it is, Moto2 is almost as exiting to watch as Daytona Sportbike...almost. And the key word is almost and Daytona sportbike is done without spec engines." Without spec engines in production bikes where the major corps (not individual race teams) have shouldered the massive expense of engine development. | ||
| Jimidan |
Blake sez: "You want better parity, assign cumulative weight to the racer/bike that wins." Great point...check mate. | ||
| Simond |
How's that parity? You give a lighter bike to bigger stronger riders.  | ||
| Trojan |
The idea that a rules change will eliminate factory dominance is just incredibly improbable. If you actually read the proposals from Dorna you would see that factory dominance is not only unlikely under future rules but would actually be discouraged, penalised and financially discouraged. Until now Dorna have paid substantial amounts to 'satellite' teams to help them with the ridiculous lease costs of 'factory' bikes and without these paymenst thet teams would not have been viable. This has meant that Honda/Yamaha and to a lesser extent Ducati have been subsidised to stay in the series as a factory team carrying sponsors that actually don't go anywhere near paying their full costs (Only Ducati manages to get its race dept fully funded by Philip Morris, all the others lose money). The factories have been leading development down blind alleys since the introduction of 4 stroke GP rules, despite Dorna and others pleading for the supply of engines to private teams, cheaper lease costs, lower electronic aids etc (all of which have been ignored completely by the factory teams that effectively ran MotoGP in recent years). The factories have nobody to blame but themselves that they are in this position now. After 2011 Dorna will only financially support CRT teams and will give NO assistance to teams running factory bikes or satellite teams running leased factory equipment. This means that the factories will have to pay the full cost of their own race teams and will not recoup any money from leased bikes. Dorna then go further by saying that they expect leased factory bikes to disappear altogether and that EVERYBODY (including factories) will have to run under CRT rules. Effectively this will give everyone the same level playing field so long as the rules are observed and applied vigourously by Dorna/FIM. The Japanese factories are in dire straits and cannot afford to fully fund large and expensive MotoGP teams any longer. Even HRC has had to slice 30% + from its race budget for next year and more will follow. If they think that they don't have a significant advantage then they will leave the series just like they did in the 1960's, and that will open the series up to closer competition and more potential winners. MV may have won every 500 championship for years on end, but look at the racing behind them (I did say that they were the exception during that period). Privateers could and did get podiums and GP wins while MV dominated the 500cc class, and in the 250/350 class privateers actually won world championships. Without spec engines in production bikes where the major corps (not individual race teams) have shouldered the massive expense of engine development. Actually Honda just provided CBR600RR engines to Geo Technolgies in Switzerland. They did the development work and the engines are not even classed as Honda in Moto2. The advanatge in Moto2 is that teams do not have to spend huge amounts in engine development, because they are simply not allowed to. Actually this is not a lot difference to the engine tuning rules that DSB teams are supposed to abide by - the difference is that in Moto2 this can be firmly regulated by the organisers because they control engine allocation adn teams cannot tamper. Most spectators enjoying close racing in Moto2 have completely forgtten about the single engine rule and would agree that it not only provides cloase racing but allows more teams to compete at the top. | ||
| Jaimec |
This somehow reminds me of the "Little League World Championships" when I was growing up. Year after year, the teams from Japan cleaned our clocks in the Championships. Finally, the decision was made to EXCLUDE Japan from the Little League World Championship so American kids could win an American sport. It was BS then, and its BS now. You want to win? BE THE BEST, PERIOD. | ||
| Jimidan |
Trojan sez: "Actually Honda just provided CBR600RR engines to Geo Technolgies in Switzerland. They did the development work and the engines are not even classed as Honda in Moto2." I was not aware that Honda did not modify these engines themselves, but that does not really matter. The engines are merely modified using well established techniques that were incorporated by the old Formula Extreme teams. It really isn't all that hard to get 150 HP out of one of these CBR600RR engines with its Dual Stage Fuel Injection (PGM-DSFI) taken directly from Honda's MotoGP bike. The stocker turns out just under 110 HP and 45 ft/lbs of torque. They are virtually bullet proof because of the perfection of the basic design. | ||
| Jaimec |
Funny stuff: http://www.allaboutbikes.com/motorcycle-sports/mot ogp-racing/motogp-racing/6388-rossi-launches-twitt er-challenge-lorenzo-accepts | ||
| Blake |
>>> EVERYBODY (including factories) will have to run under CRT rules. And as always, the factory teams will dominate. All you've argued is that all of MotoGP will turn to CRT machines. How will that prevent factory team domination? It won't. The market today is not your father's motorcycle market of the 1960's. | ||
| Jaimec |
Another interesting read: http://tinyurl.com/7bmadje My favorite line: "Every rider who moves to Honda, nobody speaks really well about them." | ||
| Jaimec |
Blake: I suspect once the factories no longer have MotoGP to test new technologies, they'll pull out. What would be the point of competing, then?? The whole point of MotoGP was to prototype new technologies under the most demanding conditions, and maybe turn a profit at the same time. Take away the development angle, they'll leave... probably to concentrate more on Superbike (production-based) racing. |
