| Author | Message | ||
     Hughlysses |
John- I've been trying to follow this thread today on my Blackberry but I put off posting 'til I got home. Glad Blackstone is working with you, but they are way off on their understanding of these engines: 1. They do NOT share oil between the engine and transmission 2. The engine uses roller bearings on both ends of the crank and on the crankpin/connecting rod big ends so there would be NO lead coming from these bearings. 3. The crankpin bearing does have a silver plated cage which is known to result in higher-than-normal concentrations of silver in the engine oil. 4. The 2006-2007 cam bearings are bronze (see my Terminal Uly thread for photos). I actually saved a decent sized sample of my engine oil when I was tearing my engine down. I may get inspired and spend the $35 to see what turns up in an analysis of it one of these days. Good luck with your analyses. Maybe you'll find some data that will be useful to all of us. | ||
| Luftkoph |
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but oil sampling is a maintenance tool that has to have several samples over time to really tell what's going on in an engine. I had mine done at the end of the riding season last year and I'll do another one in a couple weeks,for the end of this season. I also only change my oil once a year and by the looks of this analysis i could have left it in this season. My copper was 44ppm aluminum 3,silver-113,viscosity was good 92 @210f flash-point was 450f. These labs don't need to know what our engine is made up of they just tell you what they found you have to be the M.D. and make the diagnosis. | ||
| Portero72 |
'Blackstone did fine with the analysis from a content perspective, but didn't put much effort into the interpretation, even after you fed them information.' True, that. WHO IS RUNNING BLACKSTONE?????? Sorry, I mean TREADstone. I am having a Bourne moment. And I have been DYING to say that. My apologies. Good luck with your oil, JB. Carry on.... | ||
| Court |
By the way . . . . I actually HAVE the oil from my last Ulysses oil change. I had no way to get rid of it and it's been sitting here in the quart bottles, it'd be a perfect sample. If you guys need it for anything let me know and I'll get another Amsoil and Blackstone kit and send it in. Is there an "end game" on this Uly crank thing or just our collective curiosity? | ||
| Johnboy777 |
Luftkoph: "These labs don't need to know what our engine is made up of they just tell you what they found you have to be the M.D. and make the diagnosis" Exactly right - but that takes a basic understanding (in order to give us a sound opinion) of our engines - which they don't seem to have at present. @ Hughlysses - thank you, I shot that info off to Blackstone and invited Andy Martin of Blackstone to view this thread. Court: "Is there an "end game" on this Uly crank thing or just our collective curiosity?" Reepicheep said it best, [in effect saying] 'we need a table establishing data points'. The idea here being (with multiple Oil Reports in hand) we can then compare them, to arrive at our own 'Universal Averages'-as Blackstone calls it-(or acceptable norms, as i would call it) but being more specific to our engines. The end game is to simply provide us w/ an understanding of when an Oil Report on our engine starts to show excessive bearing wear. From there, the owner can then decide to do a preemptive rebuild, ride it until it fails or whatever they decide to do. At any rate - that's my take on where we are w/ this ... | ||
| Prior |
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but oil sampling is a maintenance tool that has to have several samples over time to really tell what's going on in an engine. You need a very good analysis if the 'base' oil, as well as a history of vehicle oil, but also need to have some pretty detailed knowledge of the engine/tranmission/system that you are doing oil samples on. We do a lot of oil sampling- engines, hydraulic systems, axles, etc and have spent years determining what constitutes normal 'wear' vs results that indicate a pending failure. One big component that is missing from the analysis that was posted is particulate size- that's the key to knowing if you've got normal wear/breakin or if you've got a problem. Silicone- most of the time this is dirt. The absolute best way to do oil samples is from an actively running system through oil sampling values and clean oil sampling lines. This cannot really be done on a bike though. Another option would be to pull a sample from the dipstick hole immediately after the bike was run using a large, new, just out of the package syringe- otherwise you risk adding contamination. I'd be interested in seeing the original report and looking over this just to see how it was done... | ||
| Andymnelson |
Here is John's report:  | ||
| Luftkoph |
If I remember correctly blackstone asks you to not sample the very first of the drain let it run for a second and then fill the bottle or like prior said use a turkey baster or similar and pull from dipstick hole.I want to do my 450x and as little oil is in those engines I think the syringe method would be the best. | ||
| Court |
>>>At any rate - that's my take on where we are w/ this Well thought out and sensible. | ||
| Reepicheep |
LOL! I was going to call you and ask for advice! If I was Harley, I would be mortified, and I would be quietly and quickly settling these issues. I also wonder if it wasn't a factor in closing Buell. Harley screwed up the motors they supplied to Buell, and looked at the cost to replace cranks for much of the 2006/2007 year run. Not the only reason, but another nail in the coffin. Personally? I bought my Uly embarrassingly cheap to start with. Then got it paid for it by the insurance company for the young lady that tried to kill me. So my net investment in the bike I am riding is about $1500 at this point (though thanks to the accident, it has a nice "patina" at this point  ). So if I have to put $3000 into my Uly, I'm still only $4500 out of pocket for a Uly. A bargain at twice the price (literally). A reasonable compromise would be for Harley to supply new cranks and bearings free, even if I have to pay for the labor. Then I get an engine refresh at 30k miles with a proper crank design, and I am good to go for another 70k. Seems like the least Harley could do, as the cranks were clearly defective, and Harley clearly knew about it, as evidenced by the 2008 redesign. But who knows. Right now I am just collecting data, and my crank hasn't failed. The data looks pretty damming to HD thought... so if and when my crank fails (which looks like a 60% chance with the admittedly biased data we have at this point), I'm gonna at least have enough information to make somebody at HD squirm, and probably draw attention to it from other significant entities if they don't make it right. But at the end of the day, I love my Uly, and when it breaks, I'll fix it. My main hope right now is that my crank holds together until the Erik Buell Racing AX is available... then the Uly will be "the other cool bike in the garage" and I can fix it at my leisure. Ironically, this may be yet one more case where HD's incompetance gives Erik Buell Racing a really nice boost... Lots of 2007 uly owners, screwed over by HD again, with cranks failing right as Erik Buell Racing rolls out the adventure bike that they would have built if only Harley hadn't been "helping" them... :/ | ||
| Reepicheep |
And great info Alex. Any rigor you could bring to our process and data would be very welcome. And you are welcome to feel smug about buying the later model in the process... it was a good call! | ||
| Court |
That's as much accurate information as you can pack in one post. Don't loose that thought. By the way . . . you'll be good to go . . . your AX will be ready long before your crank goes. Save the data. | ||
| Prior |
Reep, The oil analysis might be a bit tough with the data we've got and my knowledge- I know diesels and hydraulic systems, but will see what I can do. I've kept my nose out of the crank failure thread just to see where that went... There's some good data there- the next thing to do it to put the data we have into some formulas and get a predicted failure rate at a given hour level- Weibul analysis. To do this- we'd need at least the total numbers of Ulys built in in 2006, 2007 etc and do an analysis on the failures based on build month and hours at failure. Even more interesting, if one of the Elves could provide it, would be to compare the failures based on build month (would need to know build rates for the given months of the 2006 and 2007 model years. That would really give us a picture of expected failure rate in %, as well as what hour level one may expect a failure at. Yep... Time to do some homework folks. | ||
| Johnboy777 |
Andymnelson, thank you for posting my report. | ||
| Kenm123t |
Court When do we get the AX pic in front of a hardware store? One more remind me to tell you story Court and we are sending Kate Beckinsale boots and all to torture AAh Question you! | ||
| Reepicheep |
Thats EXCELLENT news Court! Thanks Alex... I'll keep gathering data... I'm sure this will be years to unwind. | ||
| Court |
>>>Court When do we get the AX pic in front of a hardware store? Gads. . . .that WAS embarrassing. Hey . . . I was only 7 months early. | ||
| Johnboy777 |
Thanks Froggy. . | ||
| Bike_pilot |
I wouldn't hold your breath for HD to supply any help re the cranks. These bikes are out of warranty and I don't see them doing a thing. Heck they wouldn't even replace my cracked ECM and that was within the emissions warranty. Seriously useless company as far as supporting their product. | ||
| Court |
>>>>I wouldn't hold your breath for HD to supply any help re the cranks. Ok. I'm opened minded. Tell me your qualifications to make that statement before I rely on it. Have you had prior dealings with Harley-Davidson Customer Service? Are in in the Customer Service industry? I'm just getting a sense of the basis for the hopelessness before I surrender. I'm not picking on you . . . but sometimes, on the internet, folks will say something like that with no basis in fact and it improperly influences others. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I agree on one level... I wouldn't hold my breath either. So instead of holding my breath, I am participating in the gathering of data as part of a community over the course of a couple years. May not be relevant to me, may not be relevant to anyone, but we don't know if we don't measure. Then, if it does happen to me, I would calmly and professionally explain exactly what my concerns are (supported by data gathered from the community and data gathered from my specific bike), and explain what I believe a fair solution would be (making sure it involves both me and the company taking some pain) and directly ask for the solution I want. I agree with you on another level as well. The degree to which my transactions with Harley Davidson have been great seem directly related to (a) the degree to which Buell has been in control and (b) the degree to which a good local dealer has been involved. The closer I get to the core Harley Davidson, the worse things get, but I will always give somebody a chance to do the right thing. (Message edited by reepicheep on September 18, 2011) | ||
| Johnboy777 |
Here we go. After correcting Blackstone Labs on our engines (thanks Hughlysses) this was their email to me this AM w/an amended report, as follows: COMMENTS (Blackstone Labs) 9.19.11 JOHN: Amended report. The copper and lead together probably shows wear at the bronze cam bearings, since this engine does not contain any traditional babbit bearings. The excess silver is likely coming from the crankpin bearing cage, though it is not far enough out of line to indicate a problem in that area. Aluminum normally comes from the pistons, but could also be from any other aluminum part. The low flashpoint shows that a bit of fuel may have been present, but that's pretty normal for a motorcycle engine. Resample at your next oil change for more information. Once again, the Copper content in my oil was 2 1/2 times their normal average and the Aluminum was 3 times their normal average, or as they term it, their 'Universal Averages'. .. (Message edited by johnboy777 on September 19, 2011) | ||
| Danair |
I've been doing oil tests on air cooled aircraft engines for 30 years. They normally advise not to get too worked up over a single test. Multiple tests and a trend is what they focus on. Be sure to give accurate info especially miles on oil and how much added since last change. | ||
| Blackstone_analyst |
I just wanted to add more information on how we interpret the results. First off thanks for the correct information about some of the internal parts of this engine, that will be very beneficial in future analysis. One post mentioned not needing to know what the engine is made of. In fact we would love to know exactly what each part is made of as this would make our job that much easier and the interpretation that much more accurate. While the report shows higher than average aluminum and copper, you need to know a couple things. One these are parts per million. As an example that would be 12 lbs of aluminum out of 1,000,000 lbs. What that means at the end of the day is that this engine may or may not wear out sooner than the next guys. Second, this engine isn't one we have tested a lot (less than 5 samples), so these levels may be normal for this engine. Hope this information is helpful | ||
| Court |
Blackstone: Thank you for your participation here. Your credentials and reputation precede you. I've just purchased (and used this morning on my new 2012 car) my first Blackstone sample kit. We have access to a great deal of information on this engine and will attempt to provide you with anything that is helpful to you and your team. In addition, it may be more useful to you in the future since this is a Harley-Davidson motor that is nearly identical in composition to the Sportster. That puts well over a million potential customers out there for you. Thanks again for your helpful information. Court Canfield New York City | ||
| Johnboy777 |
""In addition, it may be more useful to you in the future since this is a Harley-Davidson motor that is nearly identical in composition to the Sportster. "" Court, Is there any way to determine if 2006 - 2007 Sportsters are having this same crank issue? Thanks . | ||
| Reepicheep |
If so, I expect they will come to us before long. Google knows all.... Racers like Slaughter found the crank problem first. Buell riders were next (with stock motors making power the screaming eagle harley sportster team can only dream of) were next. The average Sportster 1200 owner, making 20% less HP than an XB9 on a GOOD day, and lucky to be ridden 1500 miles a year, are going to show up a LOT later I expect. But boy is Harley in trouble if they have to replace 10% of all sportster cranks made in 2006/2007. (Message edited by reepicheep on September 19, 2011) | ||
| Reepicheep |
Oh, and Blackstone, good to have your help here, we appreciate it! We appreciate your patience as we start to understand how to use your tools... we are pretty mechanically sophisticated, but most of us aren't maintaining a fleet of corporate vehicles, so we will likely need a bit of support as we figure out how to use the great information you can provide. Thanks! | ||
| Johnboy777 |
personally, I think we 2007 owners just need a new approach to this crank situation:  yeah, now that feels better. . | ||
| Reepicheep |
You have it backwards Johnboy, that's Harleys approach right now. Head in the sand and hope it goes away. We are smarter than that!   |
