| Author | Message | ||
     Hildstrom |
Ohsoslow, S21125r, Many automobiles and motorcycles use a wasted spark type ignition system. The ignition coil fires near TDC at the end of the compression stroke and near TDC at the end of the exhaust stroke, which is the unnecessary and unfueled spark. With this mod, the rear plug will operate at a lower temperature than a fueled or wasted spark and hopefully not wear prematurely or become fouled. | ||
| Kinder |
To the OP; I applaud your outside the box thinking. I think it's an idea worth investigating. If you do do this keep us posted. Cheers! | ||
| Ohsoslow |
hildstrom, that makes sense...i should have known this, i had a 4 cylinder ranger at one point that has the 8 spark plug wasted spark set up | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
electrolisis is what where;s plugs out. the fouling is improper tuning or oil. the chemical reactions and heat do play a role but a very minor one compared to the actual arc itself. that's why they make platinum and iridium tipped spark plugs. not really and more power but tons more durable as they are good conductors and resist the electrolisis. | ||
| Hildstrom |
I rode 30 miles today on one cylinder and another 10 miles on two with deactivation at stop lights. I had planned on 300 miles on one cylinder, which is 10% of a 3000 mile oil change, but I have to cut it off at 30 miles or 1%. Riding around on only cylinder is not fun at all; go figure.  It has no torque at low rpm, it is not smooth at low rpm, and it sounds half castrated. Once I was moving, everything was fine and smooth enough. My momentum and the wheel speed functioned as the larger flywheel single-cylinder operation needs. I did some stop and go and some highway at about 65 mph. Starting from a stop is tricky; it requires high rpm, like 3-4k+ RPM, just the right amount of clutch slip, and a lot of throttle. Taking off from a stop on one cylinder, I feel like I will eventually stall it out when I need to get moving, which is not the safest feeling. So, I cut the riding on one cylinder part of the test short. This should still give some good accelerated reliability data for the mod because of the torque and RPM involved. For the 10 miles on two cylinders on my way home today, I flipped the switch at every stop light. Idle RPMS drop for a fraction of a second until the computer compensates. When operated this way, this mod rocks. My coolant temperature was 215 F, at 100+ F ambient, when I pulled up to the longest light. I have to sit through at least 4 light cycles at this one, inching up bit by bit, but it is still the fastest way home. My coolant temperature dropped to 195 relatively quickly. My frame was noticeably less hot. Those of you suggesting that the manual toggle switch is a bad idea are right on the money. A couple of times, I had inched my way up to the light on one cylinder. When the light turned green, I switched the rear cylinder back on and started to move. But, I waaaaay over revved the bike because I had given it too much throttle and too little clutch. Darn muscle memory; and this was when I was paying close attention. My next move is to convert from the toggle switch to a normally-closed relay driven from the neutral light or the neutral wire coming out of the transmission. This will only cut the rear fuel injector when the bike is in neutral. I'll use the toggle switch to enable or disable the neutral light to relay connection. This will be automatic, not require any extra controls, and inching up in traffic will happen on two cylinders. | ||
| Hildstrom |
My AFVs are 110F and 100R after everything today. | ||
| Dannybuell |
Hildstrom - the neutral activation is a GREAT idea. Please keep us up to date on this!!! | ||
| Froggy |
The neutral thing is genius! How did I not think of that? I just hope the bike can still start fine in N, but thats probably why you will have that toggle to enable and disable it. | ||
| Jules |
It's good that a bit of debate is actually helping with the development of this mod  The neutral relay is a great idea and Hildstrom - I'm pleased to hear I'm not the only one who might have struggled with muscle memory LOL As an alternative to the neutral suggestion, might I offer another? How about the clutch switch instead? I tend to stay in gear at the lights with the clutch pulled rather than in neutral. It's just a thought, if you change to neutral at the lights then that's probably a better option for you | ||
| Hildstrom |
Froggy, It will start on one cylinder both in neutral and in gear with the clutch pulled in. Jules, The clutch switch is an interesting idea and it only involves tapping into a different wire to drive the relay, but I'm not sure I want to cut fuel to the rear cylinder every time I switch gears or pull the clutch. If the clutch switch engages when the lever is almost fully released, it's a no-go. Slipping the clutch from a stop is difficult on one cylinder and then two-cylinder mode would kick in right when the clutch has full grip. If the clutch switch engages when the lever is almost fully pulled, it may be a trivial extra step to tap into neutral and clutch wires with diodes prior to the toggle switch. This would cut fuel when the clutch is pulled in or when the bike is in neutral. The diodes would keep the clutch switch from activating the neutral light and vice versa. Another alternative would be to use a 3-way toggle switch to select between off, neutral operation, or clutch operation. I'll know more when I start measuring voltages and tracing wiring diagrams back to fuses. | ||
| S21125r |
Jules - I think in that scenario you'd also have to run a toggle to activate/deactivate in addition to the clutch switch. Otherwise you'd drop into 1 cyl mode when clutching for upshift/downshift at speed. For me personally, I sometime just clutch it at a stoplight, but for really long lights I like to drop it in neutral and unkink my back. I suppose the perfect set up would be to look for either clutch or gear state. | ||
| Jules |
+1 I think as Hildstrom suggests, a couple of diodes is the the ideal. I rarely use the clutch for upshifts so wouldn't worry about that (personally) and besides, I'd (try to remember to) switch the mod off when moving and just back on when stationary. The more I read about this the more I like the idea and I was initially sceptical. Well done Hildstrom (or do you prefer Greg?) | ||
| Jules |
Slipping the clutch from a stop is difficult on one cylinder and then two-cylinder mode would kick in right when the clutch has full grip. And that's a REALLY good point.... it'd turn the mod from a cooling aid to a "how to flip your motorcycle" device in one fell swoop.. | ||
| Dannybuell |
Clutch state would make for herky-jerky up and down shifts in all gears. Neutral state would be herky-jerky going from second to first. A combination of variables will likely lead to the best answer. Perhaps a Neutral state with throttle position or speed at zero? This is GREAT stuff! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_displacement http://dev.sandbox.green.autoblog.com/2006/09/26/h onda-variable-displacement-motorcycles/ | ||
| Musclecargod |
We could go a step further and use the output from the speed sensor, which is probably a voltage that varies based on speed (is this correct on the 1125?). Use a zener diode to provide a baseline voltage to a voltage comparator IC, and then use the speed sensor with a trim pot to engage/disengage the circuit. In this way the cylinder cannot be deactivated except under a certain speed, which would be adjustable with the trim pot. This should eliminate the cylinder being deactivated during shifts, etc... | ||
| Hootowl |
Pretty sure it's a hall effect sensor, so the output are pulses which the ecm counts. Now, the output to the speedometer from the ECM may very well be an analog voltage. | ||
| Musclecargod |
That makes sense I wasn't sure what was being used. Output to the speedometer could be difficult to access though... How about using the throttle position sensor? | ||
| Hootowl |
The voltage read from the TPS is dependent upon how much current is flowing through it. If you try to 'read' that with another circuit, you could increase the current, and screw up the voltage, which would cause fueling issues. The input impedance of the monitor would have to be very high. Not hard to do, just something to keep in mind. | ||
| Ohsoslow |
im pretty sure the speed data along with just about everything else from the ecm to the inst cluster is transmitted on the data link. if you could tie coolant temp and vehicle speed into the equation would be a neat way of achieving this. | ||
| Musclecargod |
Hootowl, I do not know the particulars of these sensors (maybe another Hall effect sensor). If that is how these work then impedance would have to be high indeed. Good call. Ohsoslow, that's a good point as well. Coolant temp would be another good item to tie into. This is an interesting topic. I think there are lots of interesting solutions to be had. | ||
| Hootowl |
The TPS is a potentiometer. An arm sweeps along resistor material and a voltage from 0 to 5 volts is supplied to the ECM. The TPS 'reset' tells the ECM what voltage zero throttle is. It isn't actually a reset of the TPS, rather a reset of the voltage offset stored in the ECM. Don't quote me on the 5 volt part. | ||
| Tmchcrk |
A slow release relay would work fine too. Using this off the clutch a two second slow release relay would give u ur gear changes without any issues. | ||
| Tmchcrk |
Maybe go all out. Use an Arduino, that way u could use all kinds of variables, and conditions to turn off or on the injector. Just a thought | ||
| Stevek1125r |
Use a latching relay combining the clutch and neutral switch... Neutral switch or clutch by themselves does nothing, but if you have the clutch and kick it to neutral, now the relay is latched to keep it closed/open (how ever you wire it). you wire the latching part of the relay to the neutral switch. now you can release the clutch and the engine is on single cylinder, as soon as you kick the bike out of neutral, the relay releases and boom full power. Basically it takes the neutral light and clutch together to activate, the neutral light on, to hold it, and in a gear to deactivate the cylinder skip.. just a thought | ||
| Dannybuell |
Stevek1125r - that sounds completely feasible. | ||
| Dennis_c |
How about a time delay relay say 1 second that will give enough time to shift gears. | ||
| Zac4mac |
Steve - ever program PLCs? looks like "ladder logic" to me.. If you're playing with the programmable ECM or Tuner Pro, you should be able to do this with the ECM. I was thinking of a one second delay on the clutch switch... Froggy - this is a good one to keep accessible... Z | ||
| Stevek1125r |
PLC? Nope.... Heck i had to look that up. lol I figure if the OP is just using a switch, a 5 dollar relay and a some fancy wiring could meet his needs. | ||
| Froggy |
I'm going to be sending my ECMs back to Erik soon to get upgraded to the programmable versions, this is among my list of things to screw with. | ||
| Dannybuell |
Froggy - This is right up your alley 'Mr. Mileage' :-) |
