| Author | Message | ||
     Trojan |
I hope Crutchlow is out too. He failed to meet the mark in MotoGP. Crutchlow has a 2 year contract so has his ride confirmed for 2012. He has had a bad year through various reasons including injury, but I wouldn't write him off completely. Simoncelli and others had an equally bad first year  If he fails to perform in his second year I fully expect him to be replaced by Eugene Laverty or Andrea Iannone at the drop of a hat. Edwards is still good but it is about time there was new blood in MotoGP so he and Capirossi simply have to go, either to the CRT teams as development riders or out of the class completely. By next year there will be a huge queue of people ready to race in MotoGP but without the possibility of a decent satellite team ride. Repsol have Marquez in the pipeline for the future and both Stefan Bradl and Bradley Smith have apparently been offered places by current teams (Smith to replace Edwards if rumours are to be believed). There will be one extra Aspar Ducati on the grid next year but that will probably go to a Spanish rider (if he can find anyone willing to ride it!) and less Honda's to go around. The 'old guard' need to move over and that may incluce Edwards, Capirossi, De Puniet etc. other wise the series will stagnate even further. | ||
| Gaesati |
Elias, Edwards, Capirossi et al in WSB would be a sight to behold! At the risk of WSB becoming an old rider's home. | ||
| Gaesati |
It seems to me that 600's are the equivalent of the tz 250/350's of yore. i.e. production based racers. I am old enough to remember when there was a 350 class which was wiped out because 350 yamahas were all you could buy and they were so competitive there was no point in buying/racing anything else. Additionally, bored out to 354's they could beat anything short of an mv and had to be banned to stop killing the 500 class as well. As well, age again, I can remember when modified street r5's and rd 350' s could run with TD250's and TR350's in national series in australia. Not winning perhaps but often with a chance of a podium. And it didn't take huge money to be competitive. No factory involvement but a robust racing climate was the result. I don't know much about moto x bit there seems to be a lot of factory competitive bikes in a very robust racing program. | ||
| Blake |
Matt, you offered a lot of background and other information, but the fact remains that the idea that racing now is less closely contested is tough to support. I just perused the history of some of the 1990's racing. It isn't much different in finishing groupings than what we see today. I think some of us got spoiled. I also find it very difficult to believe that larger grids makes the series much more interesting. You seem to want to blame the rules for the downturn rather than the economics. The economic situation will turn around. Going to spec engines would kill the series. While generating some interest, there is no way that the lesser classes generate as much interest as the premiere class. Not even close. That's like contending that farm teams generate as much interest as their top professional sports series. It isn't true. People will always be most interested in the best, fastest, most skilled levels of sports. The MotoGP support classes don't have near the same appeal in those veins. I still think you're making a problem where none exist. I do agree that going to a spec ECM and on top of that eliminating electrical traction and wheelie control would help the satellite teams and the racing. They should also lower the minimum weight for twins and three cylinder bikes. As the rules are currently written, they are not viable. | ||
| Jaimec |
I understand the switch to four strokes. There is no practical street application for two-stroke engines anymore, so developing them any farther doesn't benefit the factory. But I still say you can cut costs by eliminating two stupid technologies that will NEVER have a production-bike application: 1) Carbon brakes 2) GPS-based traction control | ||
| Gaesati |
How much did Lorenzo hurt himself in his practice crash at Laguna Seca ? He seems to have lost his edge since. | ||
| Trojan |
I also find it very difficult to believe that larger grids makes the series much more interesting. You seem to want to blame the rules for the downturn rather than the economics. The economic situation will turn around. Going to spec engines would kill the series. While generating some interest, there is no way that the lesser classes generate as much interest as the premiere class. Not even close. That's like contending that farm teams generate as much interest as their top professional sports series. Larger grids on their own won't make the series any more competitive or enjoyable to watch. That is the major problem with teh CRT rules being introduced next year as they are designed to increase numbers while not bothering the front of the grid! No point having more 'also rans' in a rce at all. What needs to happen is that we have bigger grids consisting of bikes that can actually challenge the front 5,and that won't happen as long as it is 3 factories supplying ALL of the leading bikes on the grid. I do agree that going to a spec ECM and on top of that eliminating electrical traction and wheelie control would help the satellite teams and the racing. The factories can decide who gets the best equipment and who gets the worst, so can pretty much decide the order before the race even starts (barring accidents and bad weather of course!). Even if the ban some of the electronics currently in vogue the factories still hold all the cards and can decide who gets what essentially. Another route tp closer racing would be to introduce a tyre that has a lot less grip than the current Bridgestones, in a simialr way to the Pirelli tyres in F1. These were developed to give less grip, a short life and varying characteristics so livening up races. A change of tyre rules would open up different cornering lines and styles much more than the new 1000cc bikes will if they still use the current Bridgestone compounds (and there is nothing to say the tyres will change for next year yet). There is of course no plan to change MotoGP to a spec engine or even a spec ECU ruling, so all this arguing is pretty academic. I'm pretty sure Dorna wouldn't consider anything quite so radical until the class is terminally ill and beyond saving at all unfortunately. While generating some interest, there is no way that the lesser classes generate as much interest as the premiere class. Not even close. That's like contending that farm teams generate as much interest as their top professional sports series. Try telling the fans in Spain and Italy, the two biggest contributors to MotoGP an the support classes in terms of audience, riders, sponsorship and teams. 125 and Moto2 are HUGE in these countries and only a little less so in the UK. The US has been starved of 125 and 250/moto2 action for years because these classes didn't compete at Laguna, but it would be a mistake to say they are not hugely supported elswhere. As MotoGP moves into developing countries such as India/China the 125/Moto3 class will be almost seen as THE class because they are starting to have more machines and riders competing in it and this type of bike makes up a huge proportion of their sales. It is only here in the 'west' that big bore sports bikes are more popular. MotoGP 'should' always be the cherry on the top of the cake in motorcycle racing, but it isn't guaranteed. The organisers need to constantly change in order to keep it at the top or it could easily be replaced. | ||
| Davegess |
Here is some interesting news. The company that owns the MotoGP rights has purchased the company that owns the WSBK rights. http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=45890 (Message edited by davegess on September 02, 2011) | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Edwards joining a CRT team is great news for us !!!!! What a rider !!!!! Great move by Edwards. He gets more and more recognition and respect !!!!! | ||
| Gaesati |
How many poles would that be for Stoner? | ||
| Jaimec |
This was probably the first time I can remember myself rooting for the Spanish midget... | ||
| Jaimec |
Even BETTER news: Indianapolis renewed for the NEXT THREE YEARS!!! http://tinyurl.com/4xswxb8 (I swear that is a legitimate link, NOT a Rick Roll) | ||
| Trojan |
Was there a MotoGP race this weekend? There was a great Moto2 race (best of the year so far) but I must have missed the support parade/race | ||
| Gaesati |
Fitness is the decider amongst the aliens. | ||
| Trojan |
Fitness is the decider amongst the aliens. At world championship level, to blame a relatively poor performance on 'sleep deprivation' is pretty thin really. Why not just admit that you got beat fair and square instead of fishing for lame excuses.... Oh hang on, we are talking about the Stoner book of excuses here aren't we, so admitting getting beat fair n square isn't going to happen | ||
| Jaimec |
At least he didn't blame his crew for a change. I was on the edge of my seat for that whole race praying Lorenzo would stay on the bike... and when the midget started attacking Stoner I was outright jumping for joy. Watching Simoncelli, Dovi and Spies was also pretty exciting stuff. Matt must just be emotionally dead and prefers watching a bunch of complete unknowns in the Honda cup. The only thing interesting about Moto2 is watching the pileup in Turn 1. After that, it's time to raid the refrigerator. | ||
| Trojan |
I was on the edge of my seat for that whole race praying Lorenzo would stay on the bike... and when the midget started attacking Stoner I was outright jumping for joy. Watching Simoncelli, Dovi and Spies was also pretty exciting stuff. Matt must just be emotionally dead and prefers watching a bunch of complete unknowns in the Honda cup. The only thing interesting about Moto2 is watching the pileup in Turn 1. After that, it's time to raid the refrigerator. Horses for courses I think  Lorenzo took the lead at turn one, lap one and that was the end of the MotoGP race as far as I was concerned. Yes there was a bit of a fight for a few laps, and Dovi/Sic/Spies kept us awake for a few laps at the end, but it was hardly edge of the seat stuff. How can you say Moto2 riders are complete unknowns? most have been in 125/250 GP competition for at least a few years before hand and will one day be the replacements for Rossi, Stoner, Spies and the rest of the MotogP brigade. If you don't know Marc Marquez, Stefan Bradl and Andrea Ianone by now you will certainly hear of them in the next couple of years when they move up to MotoGP. I recognise all the riders in Moto2 execpt for the wild cards so find it far more entertainingf than a parade of MotoGP bikes where only 4 or 5 people are ever capable of winning. In the Moto2 race there were 6 people all capable of taking the win right down to the last lap, along with hugely variable cornering lines (something else that is lacking in MotoGP). The top 6 finishers were within 3.4 seconds at the flag, compared to a gap of 18 seconds back to 6th in MotoGP and a 7 second gap between 1st and second (YAWNNNN). In fact, the gap between first and last (15th) in MotoGP was 1'20" whereas the gap between first and last (29th!) in Moto2 was only 1'30". That is another 14 finishers in the same time frame! If you didn't see the Misano Moto2 race you really did miss the best race of the year so far, even if you don't recognise the names involved | ||
| Jaimec |
It's simple, Matt. If I don't know the rider, I can always cheer for the brand... but there aren't any recognizable brands in Moto2 beyond Honda... and it'll be a cold day you-know-where when I root for ANYONE on a Honda. Glad Nicky is racing for Ducati now... I felt bad rooting against him. And I'm hoping Dovi gets a decent ride next year with a team I can feel good about too. | ||
| Simond |
You only get to know the riders by watching the racing. I think I counted 16/17 GP winners in the Moto2 field and 5 World Champions. I kind of get the Honda thing, I've never really got their products or racing attitude but the engine supplier in Moto2 is academic. The Honda brand is not visible, the bikes are only distinguishable by their bodywork and chassis design - it could be a diesel in there. I suppose the lack of US riders doesn't help. We've got Bradley and Scott Redding to shout for but there is such quality in depth in the Moto2 field. Only time will tell whether this or Superbike will be providing the MotoGP champions of the future. I sincerely hope that Tony Elias' experience is not a sign of things to come. Many said before he got his second shot at the top class that his riding style was not suited to the 800s but I don't really understand why. Matt? | ||
| Gaesati |
"Root" has an interesting colloquial meaning for Australians... | ||
| Gaesati |
Stoner said that he wasn't prepared to push as hard as Lorenzo in the first half of the race. In the second half, when he wanted to push he said he didn't have the physical strength to catch or stay with Lorenzo or to fend off Pedrosa. By way of explanation he mentioned his lack of strength as being due to lack of training and sleep. When he spoke to Wayne Rainey about it he was smiling and said "I was knackered" So tell me, how "I got beaten because I wasn't strong enough" qualifies as whining. Maybe as Blake says you no listen good. Perhaps your bias means you listen selectively and negatively. Apropos my comment about the aliens, Pedrosa has spent most of the year recovering from injury and is only now getting his strength back, Lorenzo himself admitted he was badly shaken by his practice crash at Laguna and is only now showing the form and commitment he had earlier. Steve Parrish in his commentary said that Stoner injured his neck at Assen and has not been able to train properly since. Similar comments have been made about Spies and his difficulties with his trapped nerve which is what I believe is stopping him from rising above the second tier riders with good equipment: Simoncelli and Dovizioso. The other three second tier riders, Bautista, Aoyama and Barbera either have inadequate equipment: Bautista and Barbera or have been riding injured most of the year; Bautista and Aoyama. | ||
| Gaesati |
And my respect for Stoner doesn't mean that I don't think Spies is the class act of the new generation. | ||
| Trojan |
So tell me, how "I got beaten because I wasn't strong enough" qualifies as whining. Of course it is whining. If he had said something like 'I got beaten by a better rider today' or 'I simply wasn't fast enough' that would be an admission or recognition that he wasn't fast enough to win. To say 'I wasn't strong enough' or Iwas too tired' doesn't wash at World championship level. Tony Elias' experience is not a sign of things to come. Many said before he got his second shot at the top class that his riding style was not suited to the 800s but I don't really understand why. Matt? From what I understand, Elias doesn't load the tyres enough to generate the required heat to make them work. This is a result of his extreme 'hang off' riding style apparently (Something that Scott Redding really needs to look at too if he is to make the jump up to MotoGP). If you compare Stoner/Lorenzo to Elias you'll see that they get the bike further over in the turns than he does because they don't hang off the side so much. This loads the front tyre and gives it heat so that it works more effectively. If MotoGP were on Dunlop or Michelin tyres Elias would be laughing and probably in the top 5 or 6 every week. Unfortunately the Bridgestones are so heat dependant that there is no room for different riding styles any longer. Similar comments have been made about Spies and his difficulties with his trapped nerve which is what I believe is stopping him from rising above the second tier riders with good equipment: Simoncelli and Dovizioso. Second tier riders? have you checked where Dovi is in the championship recently? | ||
| Jaimec |
Matt: With regards to Moto2, I liken it to watching Little League baseball here in the States. Great fun if your kid is in there playing, or your best friend's kid. But if you don't know any of the players, you probably can't get into it (unless, maybe, one of the teams playing is YOUR old team when you were growing up). Without that kind of connection, however, you just CAN'T get into it. Same goes for the 125s. | ||
| Jaimec |
More griping from "Stoner the Moaner:" http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/sport/sportresul ts/MotoGP/2011/September/sep0611-casey-stoner-defe nds-criticism/ Perhaps he isn't aware that when F1 ran on the track, they ran in the OPPOSITE direction, so the decreasing radius turns he complains about were INCREASING radius turns for the cars. That layout was deemed "too dangerous" for the bikes, hence the decision to reverse direction for the track. You'd think that, as a member of the "Safety Commission," he'd KNOW that. | ||
| Trojan |
But as has been said before, unless you watch it you will never know the participants. Moto2 is full of VERY talented riders and a few world champions, so is hardly little league. In the next few years the guys now at the top in Moto2 will be the guys in MotoGP, so surely it is beter to get to know thenm now rather than when they arrive at the 'top' as unknowns? I was very unsure if Moto2 would work when it was first announced, especially as I was a great fan of the old 250 series. But I was wrong. It is the most competitive class in GP racing and almost always gives close exciting racing every weekend. The best apsect is the depth of talent in the class, with the prospect of different podium finishers most weeks (although of course there are always the cream of the crop that will be at the top most of the time). Chassis technology is pretty similar across the field and almost anyone can buy a 'factory' spec chassis from Suter, FTR or Kalex (amongst others) and go racing at world level. The 'Honda' angle isn't a factor either. None of the bikes carry any Honda badging as such and the engines are actually built and provided by an outside company (Geo Technology) so although based on a Honda CBR600 motor the Honda company have no direct involvement in Moto2. The contract for the engines was open to tender so anyone could have applied. As it happened Honda were the only applicant, but that may change in future. Once you get into the close and exciting racing it really doesn't matter who provides the engines. I have watched Moto2 since it started and now know the riders adn teams involved, so find it just as interesting..in fact more interesting, than the MotoGP class which is shrinking every year. Maybe if JD Beach or Jake Gagne got a regular ride and started to get near the front in Moto2 there would be more interest in the US, but with only one race a year in America I can see why it isn't seen as popular now. | ||
| Gaesati |
Dovi still isn't good enough to win. Or good enough to hang onto his Honda contract. A really good rider but not first tier yet. Stoner gets asked a question and says what he thinks is the truth. Mat Oxley, Steve Parrish and Michael Scott as journalists in the loop seem to agree. | ||
| Jaimec |
Stoner just isn't happy unless he's got SOMETHING to bitch about. Unless, of course, it is all of the OTHER riders complaining about Philip Island (and the time of year they run there). THEN he's the first to comment about all of the other riders bitching... | ||
| Trojan |
Dovi still isn't good enough to win. Or good enough to hang onto his Honda contract. A really good rider but not first tier yet. Dovi has already won a world championship (125 World Champion 2004), finished second twice in 250GP (behind Lorenzo in 2006 and 2007) and won a MotoGP race (Donington Park 2009). He is also third in the current championship, so is hardly what i would call a second tier rider. However his problem is that he is overlooked by Honda because of sponsorship issues and perceived lack of personality. He was due to be dropped by HRC last year in favour of Stoner, but fought to invoke a performance related contract clause that had promised him a factory ride this year provided he was thrid in the championship by half way through 2010. Although he is in the Repsol team he is pretty much 'persona non grata' as far as Repsol Honda are concerned. They didn't want him this year and have frozen him out of all development work and testing for next year. Having been loyal to Honda throughout his career they are yet again dumping a perfectly good rider for no reason. He is a much better rider than many people give him credit for and deserves to have a top ride and be recognised as one of the top riders today. | ||
| Jaimec |
And there you have the reason I will NEVER root for Honda, nor do I have any interest in any of their products no matter their quality reputation. They pulled the same crap with Nicky Hayden after he won them the World Championship in 2006. A--holes... all of them. |
