| Author | Message | ||
     46champ |
Want more traction let's spray the whole track less the oval part with VHT that will fix it. | ||
| Bads1 |
The track surface at Indy pretty much killed off any chance of a decent MotoGP 'race' unfortunately, and unless it is addressed better than just a simple resurface I can't see this GP being on the 2013 calendar Who said it was bad?? It was complained of the marbles left from the tires of the prior race (Moto 2) but that was it. | ||
| Blake |
Stoner whined about it after the first practice when Ben Spies was beating him; he said something like it was the worst surface he'd ever seen or something like that. What a tool. | ||
| Bads1 |
Stoner breaking Indy’s outright best lap time during FP3 with a 1’39.552 lap time (the previous “Best Lap Time” was set in 2009 by Dani Pedrosa with a 1’39.790. And that was done during practice.lol Then he posted a 1’38.850 to take the pole and a half a second faster the Spies. The surface was new. They need to get more rubber down. It was improving as more bikes were on it. It was a great time Andrea and I enjoyed the weekend very much. | ||
| Trojan |
The racing between 5th through 8th places in MotoGP was quite exhilerating (Hayden performed some uncharacteristically bold passing, and the battle between him, Edwards, Simoncelli, and Bautista was very interesting) as was Ben Spies' charge after a goofed start and first lap. How many people are that bothered about the fight for 5-8th places in the real world? The only reason we even notice these battles now is that the fight at the front isn't there, so we are grasping at straws to find some excitement! Who said it was bad?? It was complained of the marbles left from the tires of the prior race (Moto 2) but that was it. Almost everybody, or didn't you notice the amount of people in severe tyre trouble during both the MotoGP and Moto2 races. Indianapolis resurfaced most of the track in response to previous complaints regarding bumps and uneven surface changes. Unfortunately just resurfacing a track is only half the equation, and once it has been done the track needs to be 'rubbered in' through prolonged use before it can be used for MotoGP racing. When you resurface a road you end up with microscopic sharp edges in the surface that ruin tyres and affect grip levels. In order to 'smooth' these out and leave a layer of rubber on the track the surface needs to be used. Indy haven't used the circuit for racing since the resurface so they effectively raced on a brand new untested track last weekend, and EVERYBODY complained about it. Stoner whined about it after the first practice when Ben Spies was beating him; he said something like it was the worst surface he'd ever seen or something like that. What a tool. Stoner complains about everything, so that is to be expected, but there were complaints from plenty of other iders in all classes too (Including Hayden, Spies, Edwards, Lorenzo etc etc), and it looks like Indy may well have lost the GP next year as a result of this and falling attendances amongst other things. It would make it far less interesting for me and about 90% of poll respondents here. If I don't care about the machinery, I don't care near as much about the racing. Why is that so difficult to accept? You're in the minority Matt I may be in the minority on this board, but both Aprilia and BMW obviously agree with me, as they state that one of the reasons they went to WSB rather than MotoGP is that MotoGP is more about the rider personailty than the machine. If they moved to a spec engine/ecu I doubt if 50% of the fans would even notice once the action started. If you haven't heard of FTR, Suter etc then maybe you need to look into MotoGP engineering a bit deeper. These people have been making/designing frames for GP teams for years, and are just as credible as Honda or Yamaha in racing terms  | ||
| Jaimec |
There were over 64,000 in attendance on race day. That number would be SRO at Laguna Seca, but makes Indianapolis (with over a quarter of a million permanent seats, and a capacity of three quarters of a million total) look empty. According to Dorna's numbers (Indianapolis never releases attendance figures), there was a total of over 134,000 over the three days. Nowhere near NASCAR or Indy 500 numbers, but damned impressive for a motorcycle race in this country. And you don't set lap records on a track that was "worse than last year's bumps." I'm really getting tired of Stoner's whining. | ||
| Jaimec |
Regarding Moto2 vs MotoGP: I see LOTS of people in the stands wearing "Ducati," "Honda," "Yamaha" and even "Suzuki" shirts. I didn't see ONE person wearing a "Suter" shirt (or any other name than NONE of us here in the States have ever even heard of). Add to that almost complete unfamiliarity of the rider's names and you have a relatively boring field. The only thing we look for is to see if there'll be yet another massive pile-up in Turn 1. After that, it's time to get another beer. Considering how Tony Elias dominated the class last year, and is a back marker in the premiere class, it isn't even a decent feeder class for MotoGP. | ||
| Trojan |
And you don't set lap records on a track that was "worse than last year's bumps." I'm really getting tired of Stoner's whining. If it was only Stoner I would agree, but it was most of the leading riders complaining about the state of the surface so there must be something to it. The bumps were bad in previous years and that was improved, but you can't just put a new surface down and hope that it works without testing or use. I see LOTS of people in the stands wearing "Ducati," "Honda," "Yamaha" and even "Suzuki" shirts. And you still would, simply because people have brand loyalty and probably own those bikes. I see plenty of people wearing Kawasaki, Harley, BMW, Aprilia and even Buell caps/shirts too but they don't race in MotoGP and probablnever will, so isn't really relevant I didn't see ONE person wearing a "Suter" shirt (or any other name than NONE of us here in the States have ever even heard of). Add to that almost complete unfamiliarity of the rider's names and you have a relatively boring field. The only thing we look for is to see if there'll be yet another massive pile-up in Turn 1. After that, it's time to get another beer. There is obviously something missing in the transatlantic crossing then, because most people in Europe think that Moto2 is very exciting and know who the riders are (We follow 125 GP a lot closer probably so know most of the riders from there or from WSS). becaue nobody in the US has heard of them it doesn't mean that the rest of the world hasn't. The US has 2 GP's out of a total 18 (?) and is only a small audience in comparison with even Spain or Italy, where race day attendance alone will regularly top 120,000 and TV audience measured in the tens of millions. Audiences in both Spain and Italy are well aware of riders in 125, Moto2 and MotoGP, and Andrea Iannone, Marc Marquez and Maverick Vineales probably have bigger fan clubs than many MotoGP riders. If you put the top MotoGP riders on Moto2 bikes (or 1000cc equivalents) then of course people would still follow it because they would know the riders concerned. It really wouldn't matter about the make of the machine they were riding once people got used to the new format. Toni Elias was something of an anomaly simply because his riding style suits the Moto2 bike/tyres perfectly yet couldn't be further from suiting the Bridegstone MotoGP tyre style required. As winner of the inaugural Moto2 series he was basically parachuted into the LCR MotoGP team at the insistence of Dorna, even though they already knew he probably wasn't the best candidate for the job. Some people are more suited to one class than another (Carlos Checa for example?). I'm pretty sure that if you put Marc Marquez/Stefan Bradl/Bradley Smith on a MotoGP bike they would be competitive in very short order compared to Elias. It really boils down to this. Do we continue to see MotoGP shrink to the point where it is no longer viable as a separate series, or do they make some fundamental changes now to boost numbers and cut costs? If it is the latter then it needs to be something more radical than just a change of bore/stroke and crossed fingers. Already we hear that teams selected for CRT entries such as Marc VDS are reconsidering their MotoGP entires for next year, and with factory teams cutting back by 30% or more how entertaining will it be with only 10 or less bikes on the grid? (Message edited by trojan on August 31, 2011) | ||
| Gaesati |
"Whining" is an interesting word! | ||
| Blake |
Indy hasn't been on the schedule for 2012 since Austin, Texas stepped up has it? >>> It really boils down to this. Do we continue to see MotoGP shrink to the point where it is no longer viable as a separate series, or do they make some fundamental changes now to boost numbers and cut costs? Your premise is highly suspect, and I for one could care less about the back third of the field of non-factory entries. I'm interested in seeing the cutting edge technology and massive factory efforts to win the premiere motorcycle roadracing championship in the world. I can watch close racing among spec type series races from club level up through any number of national and world superstock and supersport IL4 parades. Mainly, I think your premise is wrong. On one hand you offer massive attendance figures in Europe, then on the other imagine the series is in trouble. Backmarkers don't matter. Most folks don't pay to watch the racing on account of the backmarkers, and the closeness of racing has never been assured throughout the history of the series. Pick any period and you'll find intervals where the finishes were not so close as optimal for excitement. The simple truth is that some sports competitions are closely contested, what fans hope for, but most are not. We still watch. Turning MotoGP into a spec engine series would be a disaster for it. Superbike would become THE premiere series and MotoGP would rightly become a joke. Your premise, that MotoGP is doomed to continue shrinking in grid size and as a result lose fan interest is wrong on both counts. I don't see evidence that grids will continue to shrink significantly, but even if they did, I don't see evidence that smaller grids will harm fan interest. I see HUGE evidence (see the poll here) that turning the series into a spec engine class would destroy interest in it. How many Americans watched the MotoGP race this past Sunday? (Message edited by blake on August 31, 2011) | ||
| Gaesati |
Stoner obviously does set records on a track that was completely green. Oh I forgot, he sets records everywhere these days. I like Spies' diffidence but I als tend to like Stoner's willingness to say what he thinks no matter how distasteful others people might find it. | ||
| Blake |
It's less what he says as how he says it, most often coming across as blaming others. If for instance he'd offered that "the new surface is one of the most challenging for grip that I've seen" no one would have batted an eye. There's a decided lack of class in his presentation of opinion. | ||
| Blake |
>>> Stoner obviously does set records on a track that was completely green. By the time he set the record, I don't think it would be accurate to call it "completely green." | ||
| Davegess |
Blake, you may be interested in those cutting edge factory bikes but we are down to two factories now that can compete, how long before it is only 1? Right now we have exactly 5 cutting edge bikes on the grid. I don't think it can continue to attract the TV viewers with this number. | ||
| Trojan |
Mainly, I think your premise is wrong. On one hand you offer massive attendance figures in Europe, then on the other imagine the series is in trouble. Backmarkers don't matter. The attendance figures in Europe (expecially Spain) are very high partly because of massive interest in 125 and Moto2 as well as MotoP. If you were to remove the support classes and just have one MotoGP race then I think the figures would drop significantly even if replaced by some other class. I don't see evidence that grids will continue to shrink significantly, but even if they did, I don't see evidence that smaller grids will harm fan interest. The evidence is there every weekend for all to see. We now have a MAXIMUM entry list of just 18 bikes. With injuries this is often reduced to less at the start of the race and a lot less by the end. Honda have already stated that they are looking to cut their investment in MotoGP by around 30% or more for 2012 and have already said that they will supply Gresini and LCR with only one bike each unless the team stumps up the budget necessary to lease a second full factory bike (unlikely in the extreme!). Suzuki may not race at all next year in MotoGP, and if they do it will be with their current 800cc bike for the forseeable future. Yamaha have run their bikes unsponsored and unsupported all this year (and look what happened to their WSB team in similar circumstances) and Ducati must be getting to the point where they start to question their involvement in MotoGP at all. CRT is not the panacea that some people think it will be, and I don't see more than 4-6 new bikes next year at most. These will be relatively uncompetitive even with the 'privateer' teams and will probably number just enough to offset the reduction in factory supplied machines. If numbers continue to drop and the performance differential between the few factory bikes and satellite/privateers continues to grow then fan interest may wane pretty quickly as it has done in the past many times. Worldwide bike sales are down by around 35%+ and bike manufacturers will not continue to throw more money at GP racing unless the class gets some much needed restructuring. Factories have pulled out of GP racing in the past and we really shouldn't be relying on Honda and Yamaha to prop up a series that could not survive without them  Some fans will go to watch GP racing so long as it is in existence, but that doesn't mean that everyone will or that there is nothing wrong with it and it doesn't need changing. One of the reaasons for the introduction of 4 stroke GP's was to make the sport more accesible for teams (which it has not) and allegedly to bring costs down (which it plainly has not) although this was always a bit of a red herring put forward by Honda of course. Now that Honda have got what they wanted who is to say they won't leave adn take their ball with them? Some people said that when GP's went 4 stroke thatGP racing was dead in the water and that WSB would take over as the number 1 sport worldwide. It didn't happen. Other said that Moto2 would be a disaster and that it woudl never be as good as 250GP (Me included!) and that has proved tobe completely wrong. If GP racing went to spec engines I think that there would be lots of hot air and moening to start with, but the bigger grids and better racing would win people over in no time at all. | ||
| Trojan |
I don't think it can continue to attract the TV viewers with this number. That is the bottom line...TV revenue. If TV companies decide that GP racing is no longer spectacular or doesn't generate enough ratings they will surely drop it for cheaper sports. It won't matter what 'genuine' fans think or want and it won't matter what engines they run or what format the series runs. I think we would all like to see a full on fire breathing 'run what you can build' style championship, but it ain't gonna happen and we need to be realistic on what is the best way to continue running a worldwide racing spectacle. If that means losing a few manufacturers and ruffling some feathers short term than so be it. | ||
| Jaimec |
Changing the spec from two-stroke to four-stroke didn't "kill" the series. Honda's insistence on changing it from four-stroke 990s to four-stroke 800s did. All because they thought their Spanish midget would enjoy a big advantage with the decreased displacement (no matter what they claim otherwise). Edit: This is why I HATE seeing them being so successful this year (even if it isn't Pedrosa doing it for them). I'd prefer they were completely shut out for forcing this stupidity on the rest of the grid. Want to blame someone for the current "boring" series? Blame Honda. (Message edited by jaimec on August 31, 2011) | ||
| 46champ |
Matt we will finally get around to one of the biggest but not only reason most of us don't want to see a MotoGP version of Moto2. MOTO2 HAS HONDA ENGINES!!! We know Honda will be the engine supplier and I will not cheer for a Honda. I did that once when Nicky had his world championship year never again. There is a reason even riders of other Japanese bikes call them the evil empire let alone people like me that rode Harleys. | ||
| Bads1 |
Almost everybody?? Actually Matt yes.... I was there and even in the Paddock during a rider Q@A. Thing is they weren't complaining. They knew and said it would be a Challenge but all said they liked the new surface much more then the old bumpy surface. | ||
| Blake |
Dave, >>> we are down to two factories now Honda, Yamaha, Ducati, Suzuki? Two? BMW joining the mix next year? | ||
| Crusty |
Dave said two factories who can compete. When was the last time any marque other than Honda or Yamaha was on the podium? | ||
| Blake |
Matt, Again, you predict gloom and doom for MotoGP events, yet the attendance is good. Can't have both. Which is it? Now you're contending that attendance is only good because of the support classes (125 and Moto2)? Mate. I've edited your comment following to correct it:  I think we would all like to see a full on fire breathing 'run what you can build' style championship, but it ain't gonna happen, and we need to be realistic on what is the best way to continue running (Message edited by blake on August 31, 2011) | ||
| Jaimec |
Blake, BMW will be providing engines for at least one CRT team, but it's still a far cry from a full factory effort. There is a rumor Aprilia MIGHT be considering... heck, their RSV4 Superbike is a thinly disguised MotoGP bike that they put into production just so they could campaign it in World Superbike! I hear Norton is also considering a run, though (as a factory) they CAN'T be a CRT, so they could only be involved in a peripheral way (like BMW). | ||
| Blake |
Crusty, Ducati can't compete??? They may be struggling at the moment, but anyone who counts out Ducati and Rossi and Hayden is not being logical. Suzuki has even shown some excellent progress. You won't find very many seasons past where more than three brands were in the mix for race wins. I think the idea that racing now is less closely contested is tough to support. I just perused the history of some of the 1990's racing. It isn't much different in finishing groupings than what we see today. I think some of us got spoiled. | ||
| Blake |
Bad news for the Texas Tornado. I wish he'd come home and race Superbike for Graves instead of get stuck on a grossly non-competitive MotoGP ride. http://moto-racing.speedtv.com/article/motogp-edwa rds-goes-crt-for-2012 I hope Crutchlow is out too. He failed to meet the mark in MotoGP. | ||
| Crusty |
Just an observation; have you noticed that Yamaha seems to treat their riders better than Honda does? Edwards gave Honda the World Superbike Championship; and in return, they barely gave him a Moto GP ride, and treated him like a red headed step child. Nicky Hayden won the Moto GP championship (in spite of the little rat-weasel taking him out), and in return, they gave him a bike designed for a Rat-Weasel, that was two sizes too small for him to fit on. They seem to like that little jackass Pedrosa though; even though he hasn't given them what they expected. | ||
| Jaimec |
Crusty... I made that observation a looooooong time ago. I worked for Yamaha for three summers years back (they hired local MSF Instructors to run their demo ride programs around the country and I got hired three years in a row to help them at the Lake George Americade). They DEFINITELY took care of me. In fact, I was their only repeat hire all three years so they must've liked me. They also arranged with a local dealer to get me a SCREAMING deal on a 1993 Venture Royale that I had for years (until BMW introduced the K1200LT in 1999). If they treat their racers anywhere near the way they treated me, it's no wonder Colin would like to stay with them in some capacity. It's also one of the reasons that I am continually rooting for Yamaha despite the fact I haven't ridden one in years; they're good people and they treat their people right. | ||
| Blake |
Honda gave Colin a GP ride? Not even. And he won two WSB championships, yes? ABBH | ||
| Amafan |
Colin raced for Honda in 2004. | ||
| Trojan |
Changing the spec from two-stroke to four-stroke didn't "kill" the series. Honda's insistence on changing it from four-stroke 990s to four-stroke 800s did. All because they thought their Spanish midget would enjoy a big advantage with the decreased displacement (no matter what they claim otherwise). It was the beginning of the end unfortunately. Part of the reason that Honda insisted that 4 strokes would be better was that they would be cheaper for teams to run, which was always patently untrue. Even before the introduction of the 800's the only engines available were factory supplied (except for the WCM team who tried to race a modifed R1 engine in their own frame and were promptly banned at Honda's insistence!). The 800's and the current Bridgestone tyres made the racing worse but the nails were already in the coffin purely because of costs and the difficulty of developing engines and electronic packages to go with them. Since then we have seen Aprilia and Kawasaki leave the series (in addition to various privateer teams) and now we face Suzuki leaving and Honda drastically cutting back. Matt we will finally get around to one of the biggest but not only reason most of us don't want to see a MotoGP version of Moto2. MOTO2 HAS HONDA ENGINES!!! That doesn't mean that Moto1 would have Honda engines at all. In fact it would be the perfect opportunity for the series to run a non motorcycle manufacturer engine from a manufacturer such as Cosworth, Rotax or any of the skilled engine builder around the world. It could be an engine based on a Honda or Yamaha but that isn't necessarily a given. Moto2 actually offered the engine contract out to tender, but Honda were the ONLY applicant, hence they got the gig. It is rumoured that Moto2 engine rules may be relaxed either next year or in 2013 to allow Yamaha, Kawasaki and Suzuki based engines to compete as they did in the SPanish series. Again, you predict gloom and doom for MotoGP events, yet the attendance is good. Can't have both. Which is it? Now you're contending that attendance is only good because of the support classes (125 and Moto2)? Mate. Attendances outside the 'core' countries of Spain and Italy are actually falling, not growing. TV audiences are holding up and are increasing in the core area, but not elsewhere. MotoGP is actually pretty stagnant outside Europe, and without the support classes it wouldn't be as popular here either. You have to remember that Europe has a different view of GP racing than the US. Over here the 125 and 250 world champions have traditionally been just as important and famous as their 500 right up until Dorna tried to make MotoGP into F1 by diminishing the importance of the lower classes. This hasn't stopped the suport for 125, 250 and latterly Moto2 over here at all. Blake, BMW will be providing engines for at least one CRT team, but it's still a far cry from a full factory effort. There is a rumor Aprilia MIGHT be considering... heck, their RSV4 Superbike is a thinly disguised MotoGP bike that they put into production just so they could campaign it in World Superbike! I hear Norton is also considering a run, though (as a factory) they CAN'T be a CRT, so they could only be involved in a peripheral way (like BMW). BMW will NOT be providing engines or getting involved at all as a fatory. They have basically said that if anyone wants to use theri S1000RR engine they can, and they will of course monitor progress but won't get involved. Aprilia have pretty much said the same thing, and if anyone wants to buy and modify an RSV4 engine they are free to do so, but with no factory assistance. Norton are almost certainly NOT going to enter next year now and may not even bother in 2013 if rumours are to be believed. Their bike is nowhere near completion and is expected to be way off the pace for MotoGP. If they build it at all it will be focussed towards the Isle of Man races rather than GP. Ducati can't compete??? They may be struggling at the moment, but anyone who counts out Ducati and Rossi and Hayden is not being logical. Suzuki has even shown some excellent progress. Ducati cannot compete at te moment and it remains to be seen how deep their pockets really are (and those of Philip Morris who fuinds the MotoGP project). It may be that they decide to scrap the MotoGP project and concentrate on WSB again before long if costs don't fall or they don't getmore competitive. Rossi has always said he would like to end his career in WSB and this would seem the ideal opportunity. Suzuki are nowhere near competitive and certainly have no chance of a podium unless at least 5 people fall off in front of them. They are being made to look better than they really are by the uncompetitiveness of ALL the Ducatis in the class. Suzuki haven't even built their 1000cc GP engine yet, and show no signs of doing so. They have already stated that they will either compete next year with their current 800cc bike or not at all. If they do run next year with the 2011 bike it will be woefully ineffective against the new Honda/Yamahas. I think the idea that racing now is less closely contested is tough to support. I just perused the history of some of the 1990's racing. It isn't much different in finishing groupings than what we see today. I think some of us got spoiled. 1990's racing was dominated by a few riders, not by a few teams. Almost everyone was riding a Honda or Yamaha and satellite teams were capable of running at the front and even winning races. However look at the size of the grids in the 1990's where there were 30+ starters at times. Compare that with today where the satellite teams have no chance of winning or even getting on the podium unless people crash ahead of them such as happened at Silverstone this year. I could go back to the 1960's when 500cc GP racing was dominated by just one factory (MV Agusta) after Honda pulled out. This was probably the most boring era ever in terms of GP racing and led to a dramatic fall off in spectators (and indirectly to the idea of production based WSB because nobody saw any relevance or entertainment in GP racing any longer). The series was pretty much saved in the and early 70's by the introduction of 2 stroke 500's from Yamaha and Suzuki, which were available to buy over the counter for priovateers and were competitive enough to win races straight from the box. |
