| Author | Message | ||
     Jules |
Yeah that's "Parade Mode", which i guess is all that Hildstrom is suggesting as a mod. It is entirely possible that there's no reason why this shouldn't be a good idea, the fact that I personally don't like it doesn't detract from the original intent. I'm certainly not going to give anyone a hard time over some latteral thinking. I see there are some thermal image shots of HDs with Parade Mode on and off - it certainly seems to make a difference to them... but they're old air-cooled lumps, i guess i have higher expectations of the 1125...perhaps misguidedly | ||
| Rogue_biker |
I think running on one cylinder, in a state of "limp home mode" is not a good idea to help the engine stay cool. If it were, don't you think Rotax/Buell would have done that? YOu don't get something for nothing and every action is met with an equal and opposite reaction. That is basic physics right? So you may get a cooler running engine per your temp gauge but what else is not going right? Nobody really knows. HOnestly, if it's a good idea it would have been used by all other manufacturers. Yet, it is only used to "limp home" in case coolant runs out. That in itself says a lot. These sportbikes were just not designed to run well in stop and go traffic. I have never owned a sportbike that runs cool in stop and go. Most of them will keep their coolant temps at 225-230 deg in traffic, not at the ideal max power producing 170-180 deg. | ||
| Hootowl |
So what have we learned here? If you figure out a cheap, simple, benign way to keep your bike cooler while stuck in traffic, whatever you do, don't tell anyone about it. Does that about sum it up? You guys are killing me with the negativity. | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
negativity? definitely cautious. being in floriduh i can def see the appeal to a cooler bike in stop and go. no of course these bikes and all the others like them were not designed to do what most of us do with them. however because they aren't handing out new engines like lolipops it's something that should be approached with due caution and concern. see my thread about no start..... | ||
| Hootowl |
Greg, Suggestion: Use a momentary-off type switch. Attach it to the handlebar somewhere, such that you can keep your hands on the controls and still hold the switch open. That way you don't have to think about turning the injector back on if you need power, you just go. Just a though. | ||
| Jules |
If you figure out a cheap, simple, benign way to keep your bike cooler while stuck in traffic, whatever you do, don't tell anyone about it. So honest debate and differing opinions is an issue to you? If everyone thought the same about everything life would be incredibly dull. Someone suggests an idea they have had on a forum - there is bound to be some debate about the positive and negative aspects of the idea, that's kinda the point of a forum... | ||
| Ohsoslow |
from what i have experienced the 1125 actually runs about the same temps maybe even cooler in most cases than any other sport bike, its the heat transfer to the rider that make it seem like the bike runs hotter than other bikes. my good friend has a 06 cbr600rr when stuck in traffic his coolant temps most of the time are 10-15 degrees hotter than mine, thing is you wouldnt be able to tell sitting on my bike in traffic feels like sitting in the middle of a volcano to where his isn't nearly as bad. | ||
| Ducttguy13 |
"Honestly, if it's a good idea it would have been used by all other manufacturers." yeah, because all good ideas currently exist and no new ones will ever be imagined. i'm still laughing at those dumbies who thought computers would be available to most homes. | ||
| Hildstrom |
Boogieman1981, Even gasoline is a lubricant when compared to something thinner or nothing at all. It is a matter of viscosity. Jules, The video on my page shows the mod reducing coolant temperature at 105 F ambient. Rogue_biker, Harley's EITMS is not used for purely "limp home" operation. The notion that something is bad just because every other engine does not have it is a logical fallacy. For example, gasoline direct injection is not a bad idea because Rotax did not put it on the 1125 engine. Incorporating every good idea into a product is prohibitively expensive and licensing patents from others is not free. Also, Froggy pointed out that the 1125 already includes skip-spark for overheat conditions, so Rotax did do something similar. They chose to do this when the mechanically-safest course of action may be to kill the engine. Hootowl, Criticism and other points of view are good. If an idea still seems good after that, confidence increases. There is no reason to believe that I have thought of everything. Good suggestion on the momentary switch, but I think I can manage the toggle switch and it's already wired up. What would be relatively easy is a relay wired into the neutral light with a toggle switch. This would allow you to manually turn the feature on and off, but it would only cut fuel to the rear cylinder when the transmission is in neutral. Ohsoslow, I agree. I had a Yamaha FZR600R and it did not transfer nearly the amount of heat to the rider. I noticed that even when the needle got up toward the red a few times. It has everything to do with the engine, radiator, air flow, and frame layout. The 1125 seems to cook me, but the 600 discharged its hot air up and out the sides below where your forearms would be. I'll definitely do some header wrap and frame insulation when it comes time to do the valves. | ||
| Rogue_biker |
....all good ideas currently exist and no new ones will ever be imagined... That's jumping to conclusions in the same way that some people are jumping to conclusions about running one cylinder to keep an engine cool is a good idea. The ICE has been around a while. It's approaching the twilight of its life. So its operating parameters are well known in the engineering world. Running cylinders one at a time on a multi-cylinder ICE has been proven to work adequately enough to continued forward motion on a vehicle if/when coolant is depleted. Many automotive engines use this "limp home" mode so you don't melt an engine that has no coolant. But it's designed to do that only in desperate circumstances. So this idea, about running on one cylinder to keep the whole engine cool, is NOT new. The idea has been around for ages. I'm not being negative. I'm simply pointing out that this is not a new idea and it is not a proven method of keeping an engine cool without any repercussions. Can anybody in here present evidence to suggest it does NOT do the engine harm over a long term use? Show us that and the naysayers will shut up. Otherwise, don't be so defensive! YOu are asking people to take your word without any proof! That's a big pill to swallow. | ||
| Rogue_biker |
from what i have experienced the 1125 actually runs about the same temps maybe even cooler in most cases than any other sport bike, its the heat transfer to the rider that make it seem like the bike runs hotter than other bikes. Modern engines usually produce the most power around 170 deg. They are most efficient at steady state cruising around 180-190 deg. They produce the best emissions at idle at 220 deg. At 230 deg it approaches danger zone. Most thermostats will open to cool an engine around 220-225 deg. On the 1125R, the radiator fans go on at 170 deg and suck air into the pod intakes and pushes it back and upwards through the triple clamp. Result: heat towards the rider when sitting still.} | ||
| Rogue_biker |
You guys are killing me with the negativity. Kicking an idea around is not a bad thing. Listening to pros and cons is actually a sign of a good decision maker. It pushes people to do more research rather than taking something at face value. | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
Wouldn't cutting fuel to one cylinder in a vehicle with only two cylinders result in a very low and lumpy idle? I've had cars with 6 cylinders or more have a miss on just 1 cylinder, and there is a noticeable decrease in idle speed and smoothness. This may be a good idea but it's not something I'd be willing to do to my 1125. IMO, my 1125 can get a little warm for the rider but it's nothing excessive. I've spent a fair amount of time idling in traffic and I've never felt overly uncomfortable or hot. Definitely not enough to want to modify how the engine runs to make it cooler under some conditions. | ||
| Hildstrom |
Rogue_biker, You said this idea is "not a proven method of keeping an engine cool without any repercussions. Can anybody in here present evidence to suggest it does NOT do the engine harm over a long term use? Show us that and the naysayers will shut up." Check out page two of this link I posted earlier: http://www.harley-davidson.com/en_US/media/downloa ds/safe_riding/extreme_conditions.pdf?locale=en_US &bmLocale=en_US Which states: "EITMS is purely for rider comfort. When it activates and “shuts off” the rear cylinder, it’s not because the motor is overheating. It’s designed to reduce the heat radiating from the rear cylinder to the rider." This system is not designed for purely "limp home" scenarios. Also, MDS and similar systems are designed to operate continuously and not in a "limp home" scenario. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-Displacement_Sy stem These two links are evidence that cutting fuel to one or more cylinders in multi-cylinder engines probably does not harm the engine over long term use. However, these two links are not proof. Obviously, I would like to see a reliability study on the 1125 with a post-test tear down of the control engine and the engine running this mod, but I'm not going to hold my breath. The wear metal count in my next used oil analysis should be a good reliability indicator. | ||
| Hildstrom |
Thefleshrocket, Yes, it idles and runs rougher because of fewer power strokes per revolution, but the interval is regular unlike a misfire on a 6-cylinder. The idle speed does not change because the idle air valve, controlled by the computer, compensates. If I am sitting in traffic at 105+F ambient air temperature long enough, the frame gets hot enough to burn me through my jeans. I literally cannot put my knees against the frame for more than a few seconds. When things get moving again, I ride knees out for a bit until the frame cools off to a bearable level. | ||
| Hootowl |
"So honest debate and differing opinions is an issue to you?" No, but I've seen no honest debate here. I have seen people say that it's a good thing there are people like the OP though, because it keeps motorcycle mechanics employed. No evidence has been offered that it may damage the engine. And while no evidence has been offered that it won't, several examples have been put forward that show other manufacturers doing effectively the same thing with their engines. If you think it will hurt the engine, fine. Tell us why you think it will. "Because Buell didn't design it that way" isn't a good answer. | ||
| Jules |
I'm really not sure why you are on a forum if all you want is people to agree with your opinion. It's a debate, at the moment it's a theoretic debate as there is no evidence for either case. There's some comparitive evidence based on dissimilar applications but no evidence to either support or otherwise the point in question. If you're disappointed that there are opinions other than yours in the world then that's a shame but just because we don't all share the same opinion doesn't mean the viewpoint is automatically wrong. If you don't think there has been any honest debate on here then IMHO you're wrong - but then again I suspect you'll disagree with that too.. You may have seen some people say some negative things about the possible impact on the engine but don't tar everyone witht he same brush. As to the last point: If you think it will hurt the engine, fine. Tell us why you think it will. "Because Buell didn't design it that way" isn't a good answer. Why? Does someone here owe you something? Are you the person we have to explain everything to? And who is the arbiter of what a good answer is - you? Once again - it's a forum, open to debate. There has been some debate here and that's a good thing. Questioning people's rights to an opinion is NOT a good thing nor is demanding they back it up with facts. It's perfectly fine for me to say "I don't like that idea" - if i don't, and i don't feel the need to explain my opinion to anyone. The OP is being VERY balanced in stating his opinion and responding to queries, in fact it's quite a compelling argument and he's doing fine without your support | ||
| Hootowl |
"Why? Does someone here owe you something?" Nope. You indicated that debate was good. So, debate. Unless you just want to debate whether you owe me something. I've already indicated that you don't. Stating an opinion is not debating, it's just stating an opinion. Debating involves facts. The OP states what he did to his bike, and got jumped on by folks short on facts, and long on condemnation. If anyone has facts about whether this will damage the engine, bring them. Otherwise, this isn't an "honest debate". | ||
| Hootowl |
And you're certainly entitled to your opinion, of course. I don't believe I ever stated otherwise. And not all folks expressing their opinions here were being rude to the OP, so if you read my comments and took them personally, I apologize for being vague. | ||
| Rogue_biker |
Check out page two of this link I posted earlier: http://www.harley-davidson.com/en_US/media/downloa ds/safe_riding/extreme_conditions.pdf?locale=en_US &bmLocale=en_US Which states: "EITMS is purely for rider comfort. When it activates and “shuts off” the rear cylinder, it’s not because the motor is overheating. It’s designed to reduce the heat radiating from the rear cylinder to the rider." This system is not designed for purely "limp home" scenarios. Also, MDS and similar systems are designed to operate continuously and not in a "limp home" scenario. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-Displacement_Sy stem Good support Hildstrom. I did think about cylinder de-activation on today's modern cars. Although this is done to conserve fuel I'm sure it also lowers operating temps. They even do this during steady state cruise. Careful reading of how the manufacturers are doing the cylinder de-activation reveals that they do shut down the valve opening and closing to trap air inside the cylinder and prevent any pumping losses. The article does state: “Two issues to overcome with all variable-displacement systems are the unbalanced cooling and vibration of variable-displacement engines.” I’m reading that as unbalanced cooling means there is more wear on the cylinder that is running continuously, while the cylinder that is shut down stays cool. The added vibration also taxes engine mounts. If you guys remember, Buell installed the cooling fans on the XB series to move hot air trapped around the rear cylinder in order to equalize the cylinder head temperature, and thus improving long term engine reliability. Perhaps the long term reliability of the Helicon engine won’t be affected because it’s liquid cooled and/or you only use it during “parade mode”? I don’t really know that unless someone actually performs an accelerated long term test of cylinder de-activation to keep the Helicon engine cool. That is the major resistance for the naysayers like me. Perhaps if the cylinder de-activation alternated between the two cylinders? (Message edited by rogue_biker on August 30, 2011) | ||
| Hildstrom |
Rogue_biker, I agree that the increased vibration will change the strain on the engine mounts. The different strain results from a change in crankshaft speed and torque per revolution compared to two cylinder mode at a given RPM. We certainly have no idea how the engine mount strain compares to something like spirited two-cylinder riding without doing strain gauge measurements or some interesting calculations. I like the idea of alternating between active cylinders. That's a bit more complex than a toggle switch and it would produce more heat out of the rear header, but at least it would wear both cylinders the same. | ||
| Ohsoslow |
i cant figure a reason why this is a bad idea unless like others have mentioned do an accelerated long term test to what will happen. i would be interested to see difference in coolant temp in the heads individually running this setup. i would also be curious to see what the effect of repeatedly "dry firing" the spark plug would be. | ||
| Mcrbuelligan |
hildstrom - filtering through traffic is one of the benefits of having a bike And i'd rather replace my switch gear than do a engine rebuild | ||
| D_adams |
For the days that it's too hot to ride, I'll go this route. This one is from Monday.  This one was today.  | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
filtering through traffic is one of the benefits of having a bike " Not legal everywhere. Not sure where he is or if it is legal there | ||
| Sprintst |
Agreed. I think the burden of proof is to prove it DOESN'T do harm Now, the OP has an idea, implemented it, and shared it. If the OP wishes to continue testing it, fine. But to expect people to blindly accept this as a viable thing is unrealistic. There is no proof it is safe Can anybody in here present evidence to suggest it does NOT do the engine harm over a long term use?} (Message edited by sprintst on August 31, 2011) | ||
| S21125r |
Hildstrom - any difference in rear AFV after an extended run in 1 cylinder mode? Just wonder if the ECM is going to continually try to compensate for an always lean condition. I'm sure short term trim probably goes up, but I think closed loop learning is further up the RPM/Load scale. Something to test/consider anyway. | ||
| Rogue_biker |
i would also be curious to see what the effect of repeatedly "dry firing" the spark plug would be. I believe the spark and fuel is disabled, hence nothing happens except moving air in and out as the cylinders and valves continued to function as normal. The the current "Displacement On Demand" automotive engines, in addition to cutting fuel and spark, they stop valve actuations as well to reduce pumping losses. | ||
| Hildstrom |
D_adams, That is a compelling suggestion, but how am I supposed to maintain 60 at the traffic lights that motivated this experiment?  Sprintst, I don't expect anything of anyone. I agree that reliability data will support or debunk this idea better than conjecture and debate. I plan to ride on one cylinder for about 300 miles. Then I will only use the switch at stop lights for the remaining 2700 miles until my next used oil analysis. I can compare the wear metal counts to my last oil analysis prior to this mod. I don't expect the numbers to be identical because of usage variance and different oil, but I'd expect them to be within about 40% judging by the oil analysis results from our Rovers. If the counts are beyond that, either this mod causes excessive wear, SYN3 really sucks, or my bike just happens to be developing an unrelated problem. http://hildstrom.com/projects/oil/ S21125r, Our garage door should be fixed by this afternoon and I can start really using this mod. The ECM detects the error, so hopefully it is smart enough to not update any learned values for the rear cylinder. I've added it to my list of things to check. Rogue_biker, My toggle switch only cuts the rear fuel injector. I believe that the ECU continues to spark the rear cylinder because it fires up again immediately when I turn the rear injector back on. Maybe I can take pictures of the plugs and measure the gaps at the next oil change, but I won't have "before" data for this. | ||
| S21125r |
No expert here, but I would think most plug erosion is caused by heat or chemical reaction with fuel additives. Neither of which should be present in the OP's configuration. |
