| Author | Message | ||
     Trojan |
Have you taken into account the newest belt technology. The newest belts are much improved and much more resistant to abuse and damage. I broke a 'new technology' belt in less than 600 miles on a Ulysses (without sprung tensioner). No stone damage or other FOD, it simply delaminated. I sent it back to H-D UK and never even received a reply from them. If you can say how many of the spring tensioners have been installed and how many miles on average they have accumulated, versus how many belt or bearing failures and the miles on the belts or bearings, we might be able to have a meaningful comparison. We'd also need the same data for late model belts. How on earth would I accumaulate that information? I know how many I have sold since 2002 and that runs into thousands. I know roughly how many people have contacted me to say they are not happy and that the tensioner didn't work (less than 10). Of these some had installed it incorrectly. I know roughly how many have contacted me to say how much better their bike was after fitting it (hundreds). | ||
| Andymnelson |
Matt- Please don't take this question as me challenging you...I'm just curious as to how many you have sold over the years. In your first post in this thread you said:
and then in your last post you said:
Just curious, do you know how many are out there? | ||
| Blake |
You kinda ran into my point Matt. We're going on gut feel. With around 80,000--I'm guessing--of the XBikes out there we naturally see a number of belt failures. Do you think the spring tensioner would prevent a defective belt from failing pre-maturely? That's the only point I was trying to make. That we really have a tough time stating with any certainty anything concerning belt durability with or without the tensioner. I think the wheel bearing issue is much more clear. | ||
| Treadmarks |
""is it a good thing or a bad thing i've read mixed reveiws i really don't see what it would hurt but i would think it would take a lot of pressure off the rear wheel bearings"" I can't speak for others, but on my Uly the FST is a good thing because it will reduce belt tension and drive line shock if adjusted to do so. Likewise, it can also increase belt tension if that is the goal. For example; Imagine you're traveling, hundreds of miles from anywhere, with your old and folded spare belt and changing tools stowed in your gear as you normally do on long trips. You pop your new fancy belt and need to install the old and folded spare. With the FST you have the option of reducing the belt tension to the bare minimum needed to get you to safety. Without the FST you subject your old and folded spare belt to the same like new full force tension that your fancy new belt just failed under..and hope it doesn't pop on your way to safety. The adjustable feature designed into the FST provides an element of versatility that the factory unit is simply not capable of providing. With the factory design you have NO method of tension adjustment, period. An additional plus, for me, is that it is so much easier to remove the rear wheel and or replace the drive belt with the FST. By simply adjusting the belt tension to loose on the FST, you remove ALL preload on the belt, making axle removal and installation much easier than the factory design will allow. When adjusting the belt preload (tension) on my Uly, I adjusted towards the loose end to decrease rolling resistance of the belt and cog assembly. I did this by moving the preload adjustment nut towards loose until slippage was observed. Once slippage is observed, add 2 turns of positive preload. No slippage was ever observed after adjustment (believe me-I tried) and my Uly is much easier to roll by hand (push) than it was with the factory fixed tension device. Maybe this short video of the FST installed on my Uly over ten thousand miles ago, will help others who are truly interested in learning about the benefits and options that the FST does indeed provide. Notice the amount of deflection of my drive belt with just a two finger squeeze. Also notice how the FST is busy taking up the slack and maintaining the preset preload (tension) as adjusted by the operator (me). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FblWbvAKh9c Quantification of Drive Belt Deflection at Current Set Preload: A average belt deflection of 1.95" was observed on top belt side at midpoint between engine pulley and rear wheel pulley when drive belt was subjected to a constant 10 pound downward force from a recently calibrated Chatillion DFE II Series Digital Force Gauges. A recently calibrated Mitutoyo model ID-C112CE was used to measure belt deflection. I am not an anal yst, but I did stay at the holiday inn express last night. (Message edited by treadmarks on August 23, 2011) | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Terry, Nice video. Your bike is too damned nice and way too damned clean. | ||
| Ourdee |
How could it be overloaded? The stuff fit on there.   | ||
| Trojan |
Do you think the spring tensioner would prevent a defective belt from failing pre-maturely? If the belt was already defective then it is impossible to say. Maybe it would depend on th enature of the defect. It would certainly put the belt under less stress, so maybe it would last longer before breaking........who knows? The product was never desined to prlong the life of an already defective belt of course, but to give the drive train an easier life and reduce belt tension at critical points. Another grey area of course is that people fit new tensioners onto bikes and belts that have already covered X thousand miles, so it is impossible to say how much the belts/bearings are already worn prior to fitment. | ||
| Treadmarks |
Terry, Nice video. Your bike is too damned nice and way too damned clean. Thanks Craig  She is so clean cause I use a high pressure hose to wash off the rear wheel bearings!  | ||
| Blake |
I can see very clearly how the spring tensioner would reduce rear wheel bearing stresses and output shaft bearing stresses in cruising type scenarios, and I can see how the spring tensioner would be very effective in allowing debris to pass between belt and sprocket and be shed with leittle or no damage to the belt and sprocket compared to the OEM scheme. Those are two valuable attributes. I don't see any evidence that supports the ideas that a spring tensioner "will reduce belt tension and drive line shock if adjusted to do so" or that "it would certainly put the belt under less stress". Those appear to be rather bold assumptions that some proponents are making. I don't see it. In fact, I can imagine at least two cases where the tensioner may increase belt tension and/or stresses. The preloaded tension (~100 LB) of a properly fitting OEM final drive belt system pales in comparison to the tension imparted by engine loading; picture a clumsy but aggressive upshift into 2nd gear that abruptly lofts the front wheel or a hard downshift that makes make the rear tire chirp. We are talking about thousands of pounds of tension in those cases. The preload tension is negligible insofar as the belt breaking stress is concerned in non-debris scenarios. In those cases, as the loaded (tension) run of the belt elongates, the opposing run of the belt likely goes slack or nearly slack. The less the belt is preloaded in tension, the higher the stresses in the belt's teeth when subject to high loading. Matt & Terry, Can you please explain how you see the spring tensioner reducing peak belt tension and/or driveline shock? I just don't see it. Terry, That's a very interesting bit of belt deflection versus lateral load data you've shared, almost 2 inches from 10 LBs at midspan on top run of belt. That would seem to contribute a significant amount of driveline lash. Do you notice it? How much tighter can you adjust the tensioner? Will a pencil travel around the rear sprocket between belt and sprocket with ease? How much does that deflect the tensioner. Very interesting stuff. (Message edited by blake on August 23, 2011) | ||
| Ourdee |
OK, I'll pipe in. The last belt (#3) I installed was way too tight. I barely got the threads started on the axle while pulling like a mad man on the rear wheel. Then I screwed the axle in. That was an over tight belt. I will probably get an FST prior to the next belt install for that reason alone. | ||
| Od_cleaver |
There is another video on youtube that you should watch>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZA0eBHjSjvk&NR=1 At about 38 seconds into the video the rider runs thru some dips. Maybe if Abe Askenazi allowed his "aggressive" tester to get out of 1st gear, we would have had a factory fix for the belt tension. | ||
| Blake |
Please explain what negotiating dips or actuating the suspension aggressively in any way has to do with the drive belt tension. Only thing I see is that for whatever reason (belt or bike) some belts installations may be excessively tight. | ||
| Treadmarks |
That would seem to contribute a significant amount of driveline lash. Do you notice it? How much tighter can you adjust the tensioner? I haven't noticed any increase in drive line lash, as the idler takes up the slack on the loose side of the belt. Man, you sure have a lot of questions about a pretty straightforward design.  I liked the concept enough to purchase one to see if it did indeed perform as advertised. That was ten thousand miles ago, and my experience has been more than pleasant without any additional maintenance or follow up adjustments. I am not in the business of selling or designing them, although I do recommend you try one out, then maybe you will have enough experience with the design to answer a few of those questions for yourself.  <--friendly face. Time for my evening sunset Uly ride.  | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
One thing I believe is for certain. Abe Askenazi and his boys didn't exactly do their due diligence on the 06 thru 09 rear wheel and bearings. It took many thousands of dollars of warranty work and replacements to get them to put their pride aside and design a more robust rear wheel assembly that showed up on the 2010 ULY. At the same time, maybe they could have provided an easier method of installing the $240 Lifetime Belt  . I don't expect freebies but a Lifetime Belt claim should be backed up with a Lifetime belt warranty or they shouldn't use that term so loosely. | ||
| Johnboy777 |
Wow EG, I'm gonna start calling you Mr. Sunshine. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Don't you remember that lifetime belt brag when the ULY first came out. Other than my belt loss at 24k miles my 06 ULY has been exemplary. But I take the time to maintain my bearings and the like. And a dirty bike is a happy bearing bike. | ||
| Treadmarks |
Electric Sunshine.....me likey!  | ||
| Blake |
>>> One thing I believe is for certain. Abe Askenazi and his boys didn't exactly do their due diligence on the 06 thru 09 rear wheel and bearings. How so? That is a wildly outrageous statement! What makes you think Abe had anything to do with that issue, or that it was not properly investigated? The wheel bearings are a mechanical item. Abe was a structures/stress man. On bearings, you characterize the loads and service duty and pull out a catalog and choose the one that meets it and fits as required. That's all. If the problem is due to some belts being too tight, that is not on Abe. The ease with which some are willing to badmouth others while lacking any real understanding of the issue is bewildering. Shame on you! Just another day on the internet. | ||
| Johnboy777 |
EG & The Sunshine Band  | ||
| Blake |
Terry, You claim that the spring tensioner reduces belt tension and driveline shock. I don't see either as being an obvious conclusion, and am wondering how you arrived your conclusion. That's all. If you have no reasoning to support the claims, that's fine. I'm just wondering is all. I am an anal yst after all.  My decades long professional career has been spent objectively scrutinizing and analyzing information to find the facts so I could ensure that airplanes don't break apart and crash and that large structures don't blow over in a hurricane or shake apart in an earthquake. I tried to explain my unique perspective on such things earlier by offering my credentials. I'm not trying to impress anyone, just trying to explain the difference in how I might look at an issue versus most other folks. I'd hoped you might appreciate it rather than react negatively. My bad. Yeah, VERY "anal ytic"!  | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Blake, Now it is time to quit bs'n a bs'er. I'm an engineer and know there is more to being a good engineer than pulling out a book and picking a bearing and calling it good. A diligent engineer would of gone the extra mile and made comparisons to what other bikes were using for the required use. None of my examples to follow are even Adventure use bikes but they are bikes made by the much maligned Harley Davidson Corp. For instance, the rear bearings on my Wife's Sportster are monstrous in comparison and it's not even close to being a so-called adventure bike. My brother's 2001 Harley Low Rider has double row ball bearings in his stock rear wheel and they have over 80,000 miles on them without a problem and he lives on a gravel road in the sticks. You can bet the engineers involved with designing the rear wheel on the XR1200 that uses the ULY tension wheel didn't source their bearings from the same bearing catalogue that the ULY engineer used. I've gotten by just fine with my 06 ULY rear bearings but only because I maintain them and make them extra sealed with a layer of Permatex anti-seize. I'm positive they would of called it quits many miles ago except for my diligent intervention. I really don't know how you characterize a good engineer but I always knew us good engineers were the ones in the trenches ruining our clothes with grease, making sure our designs worked. When you screwed up with something that wasn't working quite right you manned up and fixed it. But, not the engineers with a lab coat on, a flat ass and a permanent coffee cup welded to their soft hands basing all their decisions on theoretical BS without the required real world follow-up analysis. Those were the guys at my old company that were shiitcanned when layoffs happened. It's the follow through that counts because you can hardly hang your hat on failures just because theoretically it should work. Theoretically speaking, the bearings your type of engineer picked, created a whole lot of rear wheel bearing failures and quite a few grenaded rear wheels and for sure a whole lot of pissed off ULY riders.  (Message edited by electraglider_1997 on August 23, 2011) | ||
| Froggy |
Last time I checked it was covered under warranty. It is a lifetime belt, previous years did not have a lifetime belt and required scheduled replacement. The lifetime belt does not have a scheduled replacement, it should last the life of the bike, like headlight bulbs, wheel bearings, and cranks. If it breaks, you replace it.
$240? How did you get shafted by paying at least $60 over full retail? Easier to install? What can be done to make it easier? Short of magically installing itself, I don't really think there is much. At least you don't need to remove the swingarm like many Harley models. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
American Sports Bike. A sponsor here. That included the fast shipping. This belt failure happened, as I recall, was one week before the 2010 Homecoming so I was not able to order from my local dealer. Yeah, I thought it seemed a tad steep at the time. I paid the piper so I could make the East Troy trip. My memory of the price may be off but usually when it comes to money my memory isn't too bad. (Message edited by electraglider_1997 on August 23, 2011) | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
My warranty has long run out on my ULY. Not sure what you mean by scheduled replacement on a drive belt since no one is going to replace a belt unless it is broke. Show me a lifetime belt warranty. | ||
| Treadmarks |
You claim that the spring tensioner reduces belt tension and driveline shock. I don't see either as being an obvious conclusion, and am wondering how you arrived your conclusion. Yes, I claimed that the adjustable spring tensioner allows me to adjust, and thereby reduce (if I desire) the drive belt tension on my Uly. It does work, and thats a fact jack. But it only works in Terrytown! It will not work anywhere else in the world. But it does work for me.  Why am I not surprised..... that you just don't get it. Maybe if you just pretended to drink the kool aid, things will start making sense.  | ||
| Froggy |
http://www.americansportbike.com/shoponline/ccp0-p rodshow/17176.html $182, was 175 last time I looked. Still don't see how you got over $200, even with overnight shipping, but I don't know the going rates to your zip code. I'll post up the 05 manual, it says you need to change belts after a certain mileage. Your 06 has the lifetime belt. | ||
| Trojan |
Please explain what negotiating dips or actuating the suspension aggressively in any way has to do with the drive belt tension I can't explain the science of it, only the facts. Even the factory admitted that under certain circumstances such as sudden suspension extension (when riding over humps/potholes etc) the shock loads created can break belts. In our experience and talking to lots of custonmers who have suffered broken belts, this seems to the major cause of breakages rather than the usual foreign object damage theory. The sprung tensioner just has enough movement to absorb/deflect these shock loads and prevent the belt from getting to the critical point where it breaks. It won't save a defective belt or stop a stone getting in (although it may stop the stone causing more damage). Pretty much everyone I speak to says that the suspension moves easier and bearings last longer using these tensioners, and after 10 years of selling them we have spoken to lots of users believe me If you want an easy but unscientific demonstration of the difference between stock and FS tensioner you only have to push the bike by hand across the garage floor. The bike fitted with the FS tensioner is easier to push than the stock one, and this has to mean that there is less strain/tension on the driveline. | ||
| Treadmarks |
Here is another method, just not so easy. When I installed my FST, my bike was down for the fan anyway. It was on my table lift, supported by the frame (not the engine). My rear wheel assembly, rear shock and fan were out for several days while I waited on the fan to arrive. With the rear wheel (mine actually had no tire on it at the time) installed and the belt installed and everything properly torqued, lift the swingarm up into the fender area and just let it go! When I let mine go IT DID NOT FALL! The belt tension was so high that around mid travel the belt would hold the weight of the swingarm and wheel against gravity. With the belt and and rear shock off the swingarm would travel the entire range of travel unrestricted. The belt actually got tighter as the swing arm was pushed down for a few inches, then the belt began to get loose again. Basically as the swingarm travels from it's upper limit downward, you can feel the belt get tight and then loose again as the geometry is changed by the interference of the fixed idler within it's path. Now put on the FST, belt and rear wheel assembly, hold the swing arm high to it's upper limit and drop it. It will hit the deck like a ton of bricks....totally unrestricted through it's travel. That was more than enough proof for me. But then again, maybe gravity intermittently ceases to exist in Terrytowne. | ||
| Schwara |
Sorry for the slight hijack and I don't mean to sound stupid (sorry again), but if the Uly belt is a "lifetime belt" and if there is only one manufacturer (no aftermarket) does that mean that any time that we have a broken belt it can be sent in to the manufacturer for replacement? To me that would warrant a lifetime claim. If that is not the case then using the word "lifetime" is very misleading. They should just say that there is no warrantee and leave it at that ... which is actually worse than the previous belts that have a specified scheduled replacement. I would assume that most of us will only replace a belt once broken, but if there is a suggested replacement schedule that makes it a little easier to safely plan & budget. If you don't end up actually needing to replace it you stick the new one on the shelf to wait. If we in fact have a $182 “lifetime” belt with no real warrantee then there is 1) an inaccurate claim on the product description and/or 2) a design problem … either the belt or the Uly or both. I do plan on putting about 5K on my brand new belt while saving for a replacement so that I can then pull it off early and keep it for an emergency spare, but this whole “lifetime” claim along with the seemingly random breakages seems suspicious … not enough so that I would replace the bike, but suspicious never the less. I am not a belt drive engineer, but I do know at least a little about engineering products that wear. You build indicators into the design that give feedback prior to a catastrophic failure. Many pressure vessel are designed to leak as opposed to bursting under full load … tires have tread wear indicators & etc. | ||
| Froggy |
You bring it in to your local Buell dealer, it will be covered under your bikes warranty. |
