| Author | Message | ||
     Htekwo |
How can I improve the extreme lever travel and poor initial bite on the stock brake system? I'm sure pads will cure the initial bite issue, but I'm not sure how to go about fixing the travel issue (already adjusted as far out as it will go with shorty levers). Will a new radial MC help this? Does anyone else have issue with it? I've bleed the brakes, but it didn't improve. | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
Use a screwdriver to push the pistons back into the caliper. Tha will reward you with a firmer lever for at least a few hundred miles. I'm guessing there is some air in the caliper that is forced out by doing so. As far as pads, get the Dunlopad SDP993 part number. That's the HH+ compound, which I've also got on my CBR F2. Initial bite and stopping power are much improved over stock. Don't listen to anyone who suggests EBC pads. | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
lol flesh i am happy with my ebc pads thus far | ||
| Americanmadexb |
My EBC pads are HH+. Work fine for me! | ||
| Nuts4mc |
I use a Hayabusa MC..see here (scroll down) http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/633593.html it has a bigger MC - pushes more fluid thru sooner - you can pick up a used one for less than $100 - also have the EBC pads ...working very well or rebuild your MC - not too much$$$ | ||
| Avalaugh |
It's a Buell thing, some are worse than others, I even bought a new calliper as pads, line, fluid, MC all didn't leave me with a consistent lever feel. Ended up swapping the front for a twin disc set up from an R1, never looked back since  | ||
| Jdugger |
I've never felt a ZTL2 system that wasn't at least a little spongy, so it's a bit of the nature of the system. Once the brake is engaged, a fair bit of the sponge and play in the lever is just caliper and caliper mount flex. You can actually see it with the naked eye by looking closely at your caliper while you squeeze the lever. Replacing the MC does help to a degree. I use a Brembo RCS19, and there are other good options. If you like the "brick wall" stop, you will want a 19x20 ratio instead of the stock 19x18. But, it's not JUST the MC that's the issue. We actually put a Buell MC on our endurance racing Honda 600 (because I had it as an extra) and I'll say the brakes there feel great to me, without the sponge of the ZTL2 system, and they have a very grabby, progressive feel, too. Pads will make a big difference, and it's my opinion the ZTL2 system is more particular about matching the right pad to the rider than other systems I've used. I don't agree with the comment about EBC pads, as I've used the Extreme Pro composition with some degree of success on the racetrack and for trackdays. I'm less fond of them now than I used to be, but to suggest they are a terrible choice and to not listen to anyone who recommends them is just silly. What kind of riding you do and your skill level on the brakes makes a big difference in selecting the right pad for the ZTL2 system. | ||
| Jaimec |
It IS odd. Almost like there's a rubber brake hose, not a stainless steel one. I never had that sensation with my old Cyclone, brake response was just FANTASTIC with that bike and even more importantly, brake FEEL. I never felt that the ZTL on the XB12Ss felt as good and I was disappointed that the ZTL2 on the 1125R wasn't any improvement in feel. I know my bike STOPS as well as any non-ABS equipped sportbike out there, but every time I swap bikes with a buddy and then back onto mine I feel a little disappointed in the front brake. | ||
| Smoke4ndmears |
2010 ZX-10 MC works as well. Changing the MC is a good starting point, but like Jdugger says the rest of the system matters. I run the ZX10 MC, Erik Buell Racing performance friction pads and use the newer mounting hardware from Erik Buell Racing as well. From that I get a firm, linear brake feel with acceptable initial travel. Recently I installed the 6mm finned rotor and didn't notice and difference in feel. Works great for me at the intermediate track day level. | ||
| Reepicheep |
To get a really good bleed, also use a velcro strap or something to keep pressure on the brakes overnight. The effect fades after a day or so, but ends up better then where you started. So after 5 or 10 repetitions, you have a really tight brake system. I think what happens is the pressure makes the bubbles smaller. They will expand again when the pressure comes off, but while they are smaller they work their way out of the system better. So after a few cycles, it gets nice and firm. | ||
| Dcmortalcoil |
It's the OEM m/c. It has too much free play for my taste in comparison to other m/c, like Ducati's, which appears to be at the other extreme (rock hard, with almost no play). | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
The problem is that EBC pads are widely advertised and widely available, so many people buy them and, since they are an improvement over stock, people who use them then recommend them to others. EBC pads aren't BAD pads, they are just not nearly as good as other pads out there. I've used EBC HH and I've also used Galfer 1370, Dunlopad HH+ and Vesrah SRJL-17. Each of those other compounds offer better initial bite, better modulation, and better stopping power, with less dust. Anyone who recommends EBC pads simply hasn't experienced any of the better pads out there. I'll put money on that. | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
flesh they are also very affordable compared to other brands i've seen | ||
| Torquaholic |
I picked up some "DP BRAKES HH BRAKE PADS SDP993HH" on Ebay recently. Have to say I love them. Those are the ones thefleshrocket is suggesting. They sure worked for me on Eagles Canyon Raceway. Can't wait to upgrade the stock rotor now too. (Message edited by torquaholic on July 20, 2011) | ||
| Htekwo |
I wonder if this product will help! http://www.twinmotorcycles.nl/webshop/artikel.asp? guid=YXHFSC&aid=3389&cid=153&s=&a=&aname=Galfer_co mplete_Brake_Caliper_product_line | ||
| Captain_america |
Ehhhh. I love my front brake. No complaints! | ||
| Jdugger |
> I wonder if this product will help! Right now, it's vaporware. I am curious to see what the develop. Once the 1190 is in production and has a dealer network, you could just buy an 1190 caliper. It will fit up with the 1125r. | ||
| Dcmortalcoil |
The travel issue is with the m/c and not the caliper. You will notice that the brake lever moves a quite a bit even before the m/c piston moves to engage the brake. Changing the m/c (like Brembo) solves the problem. | ||
| Mountainstorm |
Keeping the pucks clean and the pivot point greased helps but there is definitely a little lack of feel compared to a conventional set up. | ||
| Blake |
>>> It has too much free play for my taste Maybe you're too particular?  I'm joking, but there is a valid point there. I'm too lazy to fret about such things. Much easier to get accustomed to each motorcycle. I mean as long as the brake works and the lever isn't close to hitting the grip, it is all good, especially on the street, no? Even on my fourteen year old Cyclone, I can easily apply around ten times the braking force needed to endo. Maybe I'd feel differently after riding a really slickly set up machine. It's kind of like the scrutinizing of gear shifting that is all the rage of various motorcycle reviews. I'm used to the Cyclone. Every time I ride a snickety-snick shifting Japanese or other bike, it is very disconcerting. I can't tell if I've shifted the thing. LOL. I do like the Uly shifting better than the Cyclone. Feel in braking is pretty much all in the pads from what I hear. Interesting topic. | ||
| Jdugger |
> Feel in braking is pretty much all in the pads from what I hear. Based on my experience, I'd not agree with that. I'd say pads are a significant contributor to the feel for sure -- maybe even half of the overall contribution -- but the MC, MC specification, caliper flex, lines, fluids and even rotor mounting hardware all contribute as well to the feel and feedback you get at the lever. I'd not underestimate rider comfort and preferences, either. A lot of riding well is in one's head, and making the bike a comfortable place to do one's thing is important. The ZTL2 system does, for whatever set of reasons, have more "give" in the lever once the pads are on the rotor than probably most other systems I've tried. If one is used to the way a Ducati feels where it's literally a brick wall, I can see finding the Buell a bit disconcerting. | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
Boogiman, yeah, EBC pads ARE usually cheaper than the other compounds I mentioned. I got my SDP993HHs from Ebay for about $100 shipped, and I bet EBCs are a good bit less than that. | ||
| Skntpig |
I bled mine and got less free play before initial bite. Motul RBF600 | ||
| Jdugger |
> I bet EBCs are a good bit less than that. EBC makes a couple of different compounds. The Extreme Pro race pads run about $100/set. The street pads (HH) are closer to $50/set. | ||
| Htekwo |
"Maybe you're too particular?" I have some Racing gloves that have the plastic knuckle vents, and between my fat fingers and the vents, the lever runs out of travel! That is NOT a good feeling! There is a delicate balance between Lever pressure, and Pad initial bite, and increased braking force once the pads heat up. The personal preference usually is between wanting good initial bite (better for street riding. Nothing like grabbing the brake and getting nothing until the pads heat up!), and fade as the street pads overheat, and the lever goes soft. I would prefer to be able to 'modulate' that even without having to worry about initial lever travel adding another variable to the braking equation :-( . My personal preference is for a 'hard lever with little travel, and a progressive pad that bites harder after it begins to heat up. This combo gives me the most confidence :-)} | ||
| Blake |
Sounds like air in the system. Try a reverse bleed. | ||
| Sprintst |
Just found this: Accossato PRS System Adjustable Ratio Brake Master Cylinder 19x17-18-19 with Folding Lever For use with single front calipers Patented PRS system allows you to move through 3 different settings with the same master cylinder Unlike other products that only offer 2 options, our PRS system allows to move from 16x17 up to 16x19 Folding lever minimizes damage in case of unintentional rider separation Item Number: AMAG030 {http://www.pashnit.com/pics/products/galfer/accoss ato/image963.jpg | ||
| Mountainstorm |
Unintentional Rider Separation (or URS) is a source of some anxiety for me. That happened to me when I over applied the ZTL2 front brake. I was used to my X-1. | ||
| 1324 |
I've been through several iterations of brakes on my XB's and I owned a stock 1125R for comparison. My 03XB9S always had the ZTL1 on it; never upgraded. I did however change out to Lyndall 'gold' pads per the recommendations of many Buellers on here. I was happy with this set up for the street. My 05 XB12S was never 'right'. The PO likely baked the rotor, because it always skipped. I've had luck with the rotor hone tool that Al sells, so I tried it to no avail. After much discourse back and forth with Erik Buell Racing, we decided the rotor was beyond it's useful life. Radial and axial run-out were still within spec, so we concluded by method of trial and error, that the rotor's flatness was out of spec. I took that opportunity to upgrade to the 5 mm finned rotor and Erik Buell Racing hardware. I also mounted a ZTL2 caliper with stock pads and RBF600 fluid. A 19mm Nissin radial m/c from a GSXR1000 was fitted. In the mix of fitting, I destroyed a stock set of 1125 pads on the bad rotor, but I did get about 100 miles on them before they were shot. As compared to my stock 1125R, I can say that the m/c did a LOT for a firmer lever. The pull was much more linear with less dead 'slop' in the initial range of travel. I found the stock 1125 pads to be excellent, but non-linear; I replaced the stock pads with EBC HH454 pads (street pads). These provided good linear braking at the expense of initial bite. If I had to summarize what I found, I'd say: Stock brake feel: 4-3-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9 Radial m/c and EBC: 0-1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9 In other words, the stock brake felt great when it bit, but then relaxed a bit before ramping up. The modded setup had little initial bite, but was blessed with great linear feel. I had the modded setup at the track, but I'm just a novice...no heat issues whatsoever. Based on my trials (there were many), I'd say that the radial m/c did the most for the lever travel and feel. The pads did the most for the braking feel. Notice I separate lever and braking feel as I find them both to be somewhat independent and exclusive of one another (for the purpose of this conversation anyway). | ||
| Mrbuell |
I had a spare Hayabusa master cylinder and it works freaking great. Lines and aftermaket levers all fit. Now I have a lever and not too sensitive | ||
| Htekwo |
1324, your analysis of the separation of the two issues is correct to my novice opinion. My biggest issue is with lever travel, which is not correlated to brake 'feel' which I also attribute to pad compound and the need for initial bite versus a progressive increase in braking force with no more lever pressure (a pad that increases in force as it heats up, but does not fade because of said heat). I always assumed that a different combination of components would solve the problem, but I'm at a lose to understand why Buell/HD couldn't fix this in Series Production, rather than an aftermarket fix. | ||
| Jdugger |
> I'm at a lose to understand why Buell/HD couldn't fix this in Series Production, > rather than an aftermarket fix Until the Eslick era, I'm not convinced they really knew. Up until then, the XB bikes didn't have the extreme braking issues the 1125 and not 1190 present simply because they were not that fast. The XBRR probably foreshadowed a number of issues, and it certainly used a unique (compared to production) mounting strategy. Wheels for that bike had to be SPOT ON because there was essentially zero float in the rotor. It's my understanding the mounting kit that Erik Buell Racing sells today was what was to essentially be the 2011 OEM spec. It's vastly better than the OEM kit with the springs for heat dissipation into the wheel. |
