| Author | Message | ||
     Court |
My point is less to solicit funds than to illustrate that as much as the folks at Erik Buell Racing would like to have everything . . . that they lack the capacity to "raise the debt ceiling" and have a finite well to draw from and a finite schedule of tasks that must be done. Resources have to be closely monitored and metered out. In an ideal world . . of unlimited resources . . Geoff and 2 others would be spending 3 days a week at Blackhawk, Road America or the old AMC track near the plant . . practicing, learning and gathering data. But, as we've discussed, that's a huge expense and has to be prioritized along with one that's near and dear to my heart . . the development of the next Erik Buell Racing street bikes. For a sense of just how difficult it is to develop a street bike . . you need to look no further than the thread here about Motus. Talented group, looks to have a good product, linked with some folks who seem to have the right stuff and they are still trying to get something to the market after over 4 years of development. Imagine eating development costs, without one nickel coming in, for 5 years. I've said it . . in fact written extensively about it . . many times before. Once you get a REALLY GOOD motorcycle . . you are about 3% of the way along toward having a motorcycle COMPANY. Don't take my word for it . . ask the folks who used to work with John Britten . . who started in the business as a multimillionaire, thanks to the gift of BritCo stock his Father gave him while visiting at the races in Spain. Erik wants to win races but, and much more so, he's focused on building a company that builds great motorcycles for LOTS of folks . . not 100 bikes a year for collectors and racers. To that end I expect the racing effort and the development of the company . . as Reep put it . . to emulate a ratchet strap more than a firecracker. Just my PERSONAL OPINION. | ||
| Davegess |
Court has this nailed. Resources are very limited. Choices have to be made. Back in the day, the1950's Mercedes went F1 and sportscar racing. They ran full race distance simulations at private tracks before the showed up at LeMans. They also had unlimited money. Erik Buell Racing does not have much money at all and it has to be used not just for racing but also for building a company. Two races, two top tens, very small budget, brand new bike. Very good results. | ||
| Steeleagle |
Great job, Erik Buell Racing, Erik, Geoff and the Elves. To all the detractors and negative critics: It sounds easy when you SAY it, but if it was so easy to DO, why do you still have YOUR day job and aren't managing a top ten racing team? Sheesh. Tough crowd! Like Dave said: Two races, two top tens = pretty darned good results! | ||
| Crackhead |
Top 10s for the first year is amazing. Heck, they are telling Geoff to make sure you finish the race and not crash. The data from an entire race that is one click away from the edge is far more important then 5 laps that are one click to far. I am perfectly happy to watch top 10s this year as they collect data, in hopes E B R knows where the edge is next year and can attract more SPONSORS. | ||
| Sprintst |
Just watch Ducati struggle in motoGP Long history, resources, factory backing, Rossi and Hayden, and they are still struggling with 6th place finishes | ||
| Mako |
super good. top ten is great. | ||
| Dannybuell |
This is beyond excellent news!! >>>>Once you get a REALLY GOOD motorcycle . . you are about 3% of the way along toward having a motorcycle COMPANY Yes, a REALLY GOOD motorcycle is that shiny hook and lure to attract big fish; sponsors and capital. The next level for any racer and team is the time for both to to bond with the vehicle. Top ten at the earliest of development stages is a home run in anybody's book. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Agreed Court: "In an ideal world . . of unlimited resources . . Geoff and 2 others would be spending 3 days a week at Blackhawk, Road America or the old AMC track near the plant . . practicing, learning and gathering data." Erik Buell Racing is definitely on a prioritized budget to eventually build the best sport bikes out there for the masses and the "race on Sunday, sell on Monday" will be the goal but racing now will get them there sooner or later by exposure and 10th right now and not crashing or doing something stupid is good. After the racing season is over there just might be a little more money to do more practice, evaluating and testing do achieve that ultimate goal. But building the mass manufacturing has to be accomplished also again, to "sell" on Monday. Whatever happends at NJMP it will propel Erik Buell Racing into the off season with vigor and I believe some great things for next year and the future are coming. Maybe slowly.....but SURELY. I'm too old for a new bike now but to see a world class Erik Buell Racing "American" sportbike for sale to anybody is going to be very exciting for sure!  | ||
| Dannybuell |
Any V-Twin competing in a sea of IL4's is an extremely remarkable achievement. | ||
| Avc8130 |
"Any V-Twin competing in a sea of IL4's is an extremely remarkable achievement." I couldn't disagree more. If it is SO difficult to get a V-twin to compete with IL4s...why do it? Start with the right tool if it is THAT difficult to get a Vtwin to compete. | ||
| Jdugger |
> If it is SO difficult to get a V-twin to compete with IL4s...why do it? Well, no one would argue that given equal displacements, twins are on par with an I4. But, most race classes are governed mostly around that metric. ... and, so starts a debate about "what is fair an equitable" that will *never* be satisfactorily answered for all people. Why not just make an I4? Because of the legitimate, personal preference some riders have for the V-Twin. | ||
| Avc8130 |
Well precisely. Vtwins get more displacement, but more weight in AMA Superbike. I realize the rules are set to be "fair". My point was you can't sit around and complain or pat yourself on the back if you bring the wrong equipment to the battle. Don't bring a knife to a gun fight just because the knife can be 2'longer than the gun... I'll tell you what: 2 years ago that Vtwin looked pretty competitive against 600cc IL4s... (please note this is tongue in cheek and not meant to incite any nightmares) | ||
| Jdugger |
My read (worth what it costs you, BTW) on it is Erik Buell Racing wanted to bring an ultimately successful, modern V-Twin sport motorcycle to market, and sees racing competitively as a way to prove the bike's merit. They value this vision of their motorcycle over winning outright in the AMA, thus making the V-Twin choice viable. If they can put that bike in the top-10 consistently, maybe into the top 5-7 a few times next year or even (gasp!) a podium, that's been a huge success for the 1190. (Hell, it's a very respectable success already.) I'm not personally confident the guys at Erik Buell Racing sat around the conference room table telling themselves "we are going to build a V-Twin that wins an AMA championship." My gut is much more along the lines of the conversation being "we are going to build a premium V-Twin motorcycle that holds its own against world-level competition." Arguably, they are either there or within a C.H. of it. ... and that, boys and girls, is all the kool-aid I'm pouring this evening.  | ||
| Avc8130 |
Yeah, I think at this point they are playing the hand they were dealt. Erik said he "settled" on the 1125 vtwin as the "perfect" street bike motor. It would be very interesting to see what Erik would choose if he was starting from scratch to build a RACE bike. Historically he has chosen Vtwins...but I wonder if that choice would be the same with the current culture/rules. ac | ||
| Jdugger |
For the ordinary jerk-off doing track days and club racing (say: me), I find the V-Twin motor simply easier to ride. So, I have to say the fact they can produce one (reasonably) competitive with the Japanese is a major selling point to me. Though I really enjoy endurance racing our 600 i4 (it requires dramatically less physical effort to ride), I find it challenging to get what I can easily get out of the Buell from that machine. It requires a lot more skill to optimize that motor -- even if cc for cc it's more powerful -- than a twin would require. Perhaps that's the thinking? Whatever the reasons, I'm really happy to see a V-Twin option out there other than Ducati. | ||
| Court |
>>>They value this vision of their motorcycle over winning outright in the AMA, thus making the V-Twin choice viable. I think that is a keen, and well thought out observation. The fly in the ointment, which you as a racer would understand, is that Erik Buell . . . can't get the racer out of him. I consider it somewhat of a victory, on behalf of his family and friends, that he's not riding a bike. You thinking is sound . . but Erik begins to froth when he talks about racing. Trying to do anything OTHER than win may be sound strategy but you'd never convince him. | ||
| 98s1lightning |
And to sum it up.....If it were up to Erik, he would build a two stroker I'm sure. While we all want our beloved Buells to dominate each race the facts remain the same......No one team or person EVER dominates any one sport. Disregarding the 72 Dolphins. Has any outside group ever really tested the 1190 against a litre bike? HP numbers, 1/4 mile ET, top speed? I guess my point is this, does the 1190 have an advantage or a disadvantage? We can blame the rider all day but if the machines are not equal whats the point? I feel there should be a second rider on a second bike, its NOT that much more money with twice the feedback. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
I do not blame the rider for anything, I think May is a great talent | ||
| Ratbuell |
its NOT that much more money with twice the feedback Wow. Love to know where that math comes from... | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
another crew to feed and house another crews salary another set of tires for each session another $40k bike If they cant afford track days at 20k each (at least that is what court says), then they probably cant afford another rider | ||
| 98s1lightning |
Its NOT that they cant afford it, Erik is not poor. The Bike already exists, a deal could be made on an unsigned rider "Cameron Beaubier" to just ride the bike, your already going so haul two bikes, same pit crew ect ect ect. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
same pit crew? I am not sure that they could, might be too much work for the guys to maintain two different bikes with different riders etc. What if someone got confused on the setup and put Mays changes on the other persons? Or vice versa? As for the crew thing - I was talking to a BadWebber recently who works for some AMA teams (BJ), he was telling me about AMA racing costs - its 100 bucks per member for each weekend (after you buy your membership for a hundred bucks per year). Now thats not THAT much money, but if you tack on another 5-600 bucks for getting in extra guys. Then maybe the same, or more, on feeding them. Then more than that on getting them a place to rest their head....youve added 2k or more before even talking salaries for the extra people (couldnt even guess on what they get paid) I look forward to more information on how you think it'd be so cheap for them to add another team | ||
| Court |
If you need a sense . . . and some of you have raced before so I'm not telling you anything you don't know . . of what's involved. . . Try buying JUST the truck and trailer. Don't pay a rider, buy no tires, pay no entry fees, no overtime, no insurance, no employee benefits, but no tools, no generators, no laptops, nothing . . just take your truck and trailer and wander around the country for 6 months. Try being in Ohio one week and in Laguna Seca a couple days later. If it becomes too much fun . . . drive the truck from Ohio (don't forget that as an ICC regulated business you have to comply with the rules regarding how many hours you can drive a day . . . so while only one person is driving you may have 3 folks in that truck making overtime 24/7) get to Laguna Seca 3 days later and then buy everyone round trip tickets from San Fran to Milwaukee so they can work for 5 days and then go back . . . remember the taxi to and from from the airport. You get the point . . . . "rich" falls apart FAST when you are talking about racing. A developer friend of mine, a guy worth well over $100M, decided years ago to buy the Penzoil Indy Car . . . . even him, in his Boston Whaler and G4 glory days was like a baby drenched in ice water when he started seeing what his new hobby cost. Racing is serious business and seriously expensive. . . . eclipsed only by Arabian horses. (Don't ask -  ) | ||
| 98s1lightning |
•••••• people, Have you never had to tough it out? Look, YOU MAKE DUE! There are no rules stating you need to feed the CREW outlandish meals, no need for 5 star hotels, you get the pic right? There are several crew members who pay there own way, riders as well. I know that I have NEVER been paid to race in any class but if its what I truly wanted to then NOTHING would stop me. | ||
| 98s1lightning |
Trust me I know, a wise man once told me the secret to making a MILLION Dollars, start with two Million. I never said racing was meant to gain profit, the profit is what we learn in development or what we get from the rush. Some people race there entire lives out of pocket and NEVER earn a dime. | ||
| Jdugger |
> Racing is serious business and seriously expensive. You have a gift for ridiculous understatement. Even at my level, it's roughly $1,000 for a race weekend. Tires, fuel, brake pads, and other basic consumables. This is for my home race track just one hour from the house. I usually race 3 classes. At 6 laps per sprint race, it costs me somewhere in the neighborhood of $50 PER LAP to race. And, that's for a bottom-half, club level, novice hack. | ||
| 98s1lightning |
Trust me I know, a wise man once told me the secret to making a MILLION Dollars racing, start with two Million. I never said racing was meant to gain profit, the profit is what we learn in development or what we get from the rush. Some people race there entire lives out of pocket and NEVER earn a dime. | ||
| Father_of_an_era |
Some of you nay Sayers are amazing! We are Buellers and as such, we should provide our support, not our negativity. None of us even have a clue of the diverse complexity involved in what E.B.R is attempting to do. Personally, I have high hopes for E.B.R and May and every week I hope to see a top 5 or better race position but we have to patient. Have any of you taken your experiences and personal finances and developed a successful business by developing a top level product in only a couple of years? More than likely, probably not. Come on, wake up and give Erik Buell Racing a chance....... | ||
| Reepicheep |
I spent a few years designing and building data acquisition systems for jet engines, and have made it a hobby ever since playing with various analog and microcontroller circuits. For complex systems like an 1190 ridden in anger, you don't want more data, you want the right data. Overloading the crew and engineers (especially when your crew *are* your engineers) with trying to run simultaneous tests with multiple bikes and multiple riders would be a recipe for disaster... not only would you double your burn rate for $$, you would pretty much guarantee you end up down a rabbit hole somewhere. Erik Buell Racing and Geoff are doing it smart. Bring the bike back alive first and foremost... Geoff deserves a huge amount of credit for this so far. Meanwhile, prioritize what you fix in what order to maximize your gains. Then tune one thing at a time and lock in those gains before you move on to the next thing. Up front, I suspect you will see limited visible improvement. One thing gets tuned, and it exposes the need to tune the next thing, which you tune, and that exposes the need to tune the next thing. Its like finding weak spots in a chain... you fix one, the chain breaks somewhere else, you fix that, and it looks like you are getting nowhere. Until, suddenly, you have found and fixed all the weakest pieces. And poof, your chain, with that last little tweak, just got 10 times stronger. Here is the part that really gets me excited about Erik Buell Racing... the same engineers that are doing this testing and tuning are annoyed by the problems, and challenged to be intellectually curious, and designing my next bike. They are going to find these problems, and instead of solving them like a normal race team (throw $$$ in special materials or unaffordable machining or software that only works on a pre-mapped track with a good GPS signal) they are going to try and find "production" solutions (like hubless rear wheels and powerplants that produce more tractable power). It's a recipe for something revolutionary, which is something we as a country really need right now. | ||
| Fast1075 |
Reepicheep...(this is high praise)...you have what it takes to be a ProStock crewchief...you should be at the drag strip. |
