| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
It's no mystery. It's well understood. Repeating: I simply speak frankly. It's not garbage, it's men speaking frankly. Old women with their panties all twisted may be offended. Don't be a crybaby. HTFU. | ||
| Blake |
Bottom line for me is that I hate whining. I have no respect for whiners. BadWeB is a no whining forum. Whiners will be roasted to a fine crisp. BadWeB is also a no fools zone. Fools will be flamed and exposed. Don't whine. Don't be a fool. Most of all, don't whine about being a fool. I'm going for another ride. | ||
| Blake |
It's on again for Laguna. http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?artic le=45371 | ||
| Reepicheep |
Excellent! It will make for a good race! Physics versus Electronics. | ||
| Blake |
Geoff vs. Chris and the factory KTM team's electronics. Laguna Seca is a hard braking technical track. Should be very interesting. | ||
| Bueller4ever |
Geoff vs. Chris and the factory KTM team's electronics. The KTM doesn't have any electronic traction control or ABS, but you knew that right? Sorry, do you consider this whining or are you a fool for suggesting the KTM had electronic gizmos? (Message edited by bueller4ever on July 20, 2011) | ||
| Hootowl |
"The KTM doesn't have any electronic traction control or ABS" You have been grossly misinformed. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Do we have anything published that definitively proves the KTM either did or didn't have the Magneto Marelli traction/wheelie control system? What we do know is that adding that system alone is more than 3x what the entire 1190RS cost. What are the triggers for a post race tear down / tech inspection? Do you have to win? And do the AMA rules allow $150,000 traction control systems to be added to a bike that is supposed to retail for under $40k in order to be able to race? Seems crazy if it does... Two words... Claiming Rule. | ||
| Bueller4ever |
"The KTM doesn't have any electronic traction control or ABS" You have been grossly misinformed. Do tell then, because nothing is on their race spec'd rc8r. | ||
| Bueller4ever |
http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/racing/ama-pro-rac ing-mid-ohio-ktm-erik-buell-racing-comparison/ I see someone in the comments section of this article mention the MM traction control system. Calls himself buell forum. Is that you Blake? The guy writing the article calls bs on any traction control on the ktm. I'll take his word for it. | ||
| Kinder |
Uhm... I don't think these MM systems cost $150k. Maybe for the F1 cars they do but bikes...... http://www.compsystems.com.au/products/2-ecu/42-mm ducatisbk.html I'm gonna go with a Nope. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Why on earth would you take his word for it? The author makes additional factual mistakes in his rebuttal. He indicates the Buell is only 9 lbs over. I saw the weight stuck to the bike, and it was more than 9 lbs for sure. He indicates KTM wouldn't have a home field advantage nor do a lot of testing at Mid Ohio. I saw them start pulling up two years ago after my inside pass day, for a private KTM only set of sessions. And they have "KTM" inside pass days all through last and this summer, and are running KTM bikes with KTM riders the whole time. He also seems to indicate that a twin having a 200cc advantage is the reason for the additional weight. That's simply ignorant. The 200cc "advantage" is actually still significant disadvantage, given the higher RPM's achievable (and the associated higher power potential) of a four relative to a twin. 20% isn't enough to create a level playing field, forget the weight. The wheel sensor point is valid, time to look closely at pictures. The scuttlebut at the track (I was there) was that the traction control guy was there in the KTM pitts and working hard. I wish I could remember if I heard the traction control system working as the KTM's pulled off out of turn 3 (where I was sitting). The KTM was always mid pack, so it would have been hard to pick out anyway. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
holy crap, 20 grand! Thats a lot, but not the 6 figures that some have been screaming about | ||
| Reepicheep |
$20,000 for the hardware... then:
So they won't even sell it to you unless you sign up for a 3-4 day "instructional" session (that sounds more like an engineering session). That ain't gonna be cheap. And 3 to 4 days was to put a proven system on a proven bike, just your particular bike. So I doubt you could show up with a never before seen bike and be out in 3 days anyway.... | ||
| Reepicheep |
Oh, and with regard to "external sensors" required for traction control.. http://www.amazon.com/Bazzaz-Performance-Traction- Control-System/dp/B0052P3NPM Granted that's the Bazzaz traction control system ($1k), not the MM high zoot system, but it specifically says it can be installed with no external sensors. | ||
| Jens |
http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=4 5177 Interesting in the first interview was all there, now the KTM´s are bonestock storewindow bikes. Face the truth, a stock RC8R is never going these laptimes. A Magneti Marelli ECM (like used in german IDM)cost 100K (Euro) each and you need the right engineers trackside. But the competition is at it is. No wining, if these bikes are AMA legal in the condition they raced at Mid Ohio, than this is a challenge. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
Reep - agreed that it probably is expensive to go through the training of the system....but $120k expensive? Or even 80k? Truth is, none of us know. No one here is from the team and can say for sure what they are running and how much they are spending on it | ||
| Hughlysses |
There were a lot of claims 2 years ago that the Japanese factory 600cc bikes had worked out "hidden" traction control systems in the ECMs which didn't require external sensors. Apparently the program looked at the rate of rise of engine RPM and could tell from that if wheelspin was occurring or not and adjust timing or throttle to compensate. | ||
| Jens |
Hybrid, right, we don´t know it. From Europe I can tell you that the KTM´s in the IDM are close to WSBK standart. They go in front of factory S 1000 RR and let japanese Inline 4´s with a rider from a quality like Karl Muggeridge, look like beginners. Not bad for a good old V-Twin.... As somebody who work with an rider, who got a Sound of Thunderchampionship in 2009 on an KTM RC8, it would surprise me if a KTM rider is able to go these laptimes without Traction and Wheeliecontrol. The bike is very very difficult without and the KTMshow at mid Ohio must be very impressing with all theses big slides and wheelies. I am very busy at moment but if I find some time I will try to find out how the pickups on the IDM bikes look. Shame, 6 weeks ago Smrz and Martin Bauer stand beside us in the paddock... (Message edited by Jens on July 20, 2011) | ||
| Reepicheep |
Thanks for addding facts Jens! Pretty damn clear, IMHO. From: http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=4 5177
| ||
| Bueller4ever |
I'll take his word over someone that calls themselves buell forum or someone on here that is just repeating something he saw post anonymously. At any rate, their race ready bike you can purchase for $19,999, does not have any electronic gadgets. | ||
| Bueller4ever |
Truth is, none of us know. No one here is from the team and can say for sure what they are running and how much they are spending on it You are grossly misinformed, because Hootowl knows. | ||
| Bueller4ever |
So are you guys whining because the ktm has sophisticated electronic controls? Isn't that against Blakes rules, unless he's doing the whining? | ||
| Jgarner99 |
Bueller, You are a twat and a troll. Everything you've posted on this thread has been complete and utter drivel, but you just keep changing the subject, trying to stay one step ahead of your own tripping feet.... You just don't know when to shut up, do you? | ||
| Trojan |
I can't see what everyone is getting so hot under the collar about. If the AMA allows traction control/electronics then it really doesn't matter if KTM has spent millions of dollars on it or not. It is legal and it is allowed. If a bike/team does NOT have TC/electronics then they probably need to get some if they want to be competitive at the front in pretty much any superbike race format these days. Racing without electronics may appear as the brave underdog but is actually racing with one arm behind you back these days. Riders who say they ride with the TC switched off are probably not being entirely truthful. Many riders turn the TC down to limit wheel spin out of corners or over bumps, but that doesn't switch off the rest of the sophisticated electronic system now found on most race bikes. He would probably still have the very bespoke mapping information for each circuit and wheelie control etc if it is part of the system. | ||
| Notpurples2 |
I really do hope that TC is something that Erik Buell Racing is working on. Not just for racing but for future street bikes. TC and ABS are the new arms race in superbikes, with Europe leading the way and now Japan is jumping in with Kawasaki's new bike. Honda already has ABS, TC should be right around the corner for them. Once Erik brings an affordable streetbike to market the lack of a TC option will be seen as a downfall since all of the competition will have it as an option or as standard equipment. I'll be tough though since the competition has been working on their systems for years. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Who's whining or getting hot under the collar? I think I started it, and all I said was that i think it will be a great match up. Erik Buell Racing is showing up with a new bike fresh off the drafting board (well, SolidWorks workstatino, but you know what I mean). KTM is showing up with a bike they have been sorting for a couple of years. Both Rotax powered VTwins, both interesting and compelling bikes. Erik Buell Racing took a pure physics approach to the problem. Radical reductions in unsprung and rotational weight. A radically light bike. Completely new braking systems. KTM took a fairly standard trellis frame and standard (but top notch) brakes and suspension, and added an incredibly sophisticated electronics package. It's all well proven and well sorted stuff. Both bike have very good riders. KTM has apparently dumped a fortune in money into the bike and team. Erik Buell Racing has spent a fortune in time and passion, but operated on a shoestring. It sounds like a GREAT match up to me. I don't just want to see the race, I want to see the movie! And at the end of the day, I am an Erik Buell Racing fan because I think they got it right... 1) Good Physics trickles down to a bike I may someday own better than good electronics (which, AFAIK, must be specifically tuned to the corners on the specific track you are racing on). 2) From a racing standpoint, I'm guessing it is easier to add good electronics to a bike with good physics, then it is to add good physics to a bike with good electronics. But of course I am biased. Regardless, I'm looking forward to Laguna! | ||
| Court |
I'm biased also. I am thrilled KTM is at the party. Nothing elicits stellar performance like keen competition. The story teller in me loves watching a large corporation, with a bike years in development and millions in testing ..... Challenged by a 61 year old using his retirement funds. Who prevails ? ..... Stay tuned. | ||
| Hootowl |
"You are grossly misinformed, because Hootowl knows." Nice jab. I'm not sure what it added to the conversation. I got a little peek at your character though, so that's something. | ||
| Jens |
The mechanical traction of the E B R is miles ahead of the KTM, it is just the better constructed motorcycle. |
