| Author | Message | ||
     Dannybuell |
Blake this entire thread is lust. how are you doing? I was a chevy nut when I was a kid, 69 dz302 RS,69 350-350 roadster. Zora Arkas Duntov aka Mr. Corvette! | ||
| Blake |
Owens, >>> Funny you think I am not who I say I am, thats [sic] nothing but class! Well Mr. Owens, as I recollect you had to be forced to list a name in your user profile here, and you list only "Mr. Owens", no birth year, no occupation, not much of anything, not even the model(s) of your Buell motorcycles. Any other BadWeBrs here know who you are, actually met you in person, posted photos of you? You could be anyone. Who do you claim to be? I have no idea other than "Mr. Owens." Come to Texas, we'll ride, have a beer, some BBQ, some fried okra, then maybe I'll start to know who you are. As it is, I have no idea who you are. >>> So your best answer is 'I know they are different but I cant tell you how'? nice. No. You no read good. Posted by Blake on Saturday, July 16, 2011 - 12:18 pm: | ||
| Blake |
Harlan, >>> I don't see the issue, other than Blake not wanting to admit he might be wrong on some counts. Try again.  | ||
| Blake |
Jesse (Clutchreaper), >>> Let me copy and paste from cycleworld so that we can we can shut this one down. That excellent article lacks some specifics, for instance it says nothing about the high performance professional machining and treatment of the cylinder heads, which is what makes them not the same as 1125 heads. I can see how the issue might be confusing if you expect all the detailed information about the engine to be in the Cycle World article. Another quote from the Cycle World article:
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| Jacob83z28 |
From Motorcyclist "Starting with brand-new, 1125cc Helicon engines purchased directly from Rotax in Austria, Erik Buell Racing builds competition-ready powerplants using the same aftermarket components as May's racebike. Cylinders are bored 3mm and filled with high-compression forged pistons worked by forged rods and a lightened crank to reduce reciprocating weight. Heads are reflowed and fitted with bigger valves and racing cams. The airbox, now twice as big as before, incorporates showerhead-type secondary injectors to improve sustained high-rpm fueling. The end result is a claimed 160 rear-wheel horsepower in EPA-legal street tune-approximately a 35-bhp increase over a stock 1125R" Read more: http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/firstrides/122_1 109_2012_erik_buell_racing_1190rs/index.html#ixzz1 SmQz8qps "Cylinders are bored 3mm" Sounds like they use the 1125 cylinders. "Heads are reflowed and fitted with bigger valves and racing cams."Sounds like they use the 1125 heads. If this is true how are they not the same heads, cylinders. I know they modify them but they are from an 1125. | ||
| Blake |
Kinder, "Using that bizarre logic, a finely crafted longbow is the same as a plank of yew." >>> This comparison is wrong. It implies that the raw materials are the same as the end product. Not so much. A plank is not a raw material; it is mass-produced from raw material by cutting and/or machining processes. A plank is a basic product much like a basic casting. >>> Using the bow analogy this would be like taking that fine handcrafted yew bow and replacing the sinew string with a FastFlight or Dyneema string. Much better performance. Same bow different string/part. The 1190 heads receive precision machining and porting for high performance, new and larger valves, seats, etc... That's much more than merely changing a bow string. The analogy stands quite well. To have a set of existing 1125 cylinder heads transformed into 1190 heads will likely run you upwards of four figures, easily. That ain't no bowstring. | ||
| Blake |
>>> If this is true how are they not the same heads, cylinders. I know they modify them but they are from an 1125. Did you intend on answering your own question? They are not the same, because they have been highly modified, altered, made to be significantly different. | ||
| Blake |
But hey, get yourself a set of 1190 heads and slap 'em on your 1125 and see what happens. The result will be a revelation. One thing I can guarantee, those heads won't be the same once you crank the engine over. Neither will your pistons or cylinders. LOL | ||
| Hotrats |
i know hmp, aka mr. owens. from near my neck of the woods, he is. hey, hmp, come on up in a week or so, and lets ride up to the gap. gotta work this weekend | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
No Andy, you dont know who I am, I didnt list my birthday (which was monday by the way) or what I have  Others on here know me too I wont be in Texas for a while, with this heat - NO THANKS | ||
| Ohsoslow |
Blake, i have to totally disagree with your view. if i remove the child safety lock on a bic lighter even though it has been modified it is still a bic lighter. if i remove the supercharger off my truck and put a couple of turbos on it, it is still a ford lightning. if i overclock the graphics card in my computer, its still a GTX 570 card, there are no two ways around it. just like the heads for an 1190, they start out on a stock 1125 get ported polished etc etc they are still the same base part they were when the were cast. also your comment about putting the ebr modified 1125 heads on an 1125 motor wont work, are you implying that the stroke of the 1190 engine has been changed? if not what are you implying? | ||
| Jacob83z28 |
Ohsoslow- I would think that the valves may be to big to fit into the 1125 bore. I think they increased the bore just to fit the bigger valves. I think this is as close as your gonna get to him saying "yes they are the same". He says yes then he says no. >>> If this is true how are they not the same heads, cylinders. I know they modify them but they are from an 1125. Did you intend on answering your own question? They are not the same, because they have been highly modified, altered, made to be significantly different. I think most people here know that there modified and just want him to say yes they are the same but they're not gonna get it. They use 1125 cases, cylinders and heads( just modified). I hope someone comes out with high performance engine parts for 1125s (in the US) to do some, if not all, of the wonderful tricks that E B R does to the 1190. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Geez Blake, you are too smart for this. Where is the "digging a deeper hole" emoticon when you need it. | ||
| Jacob83z28 |
Blake- All the things they do to the 1125 engine to make it an 1190, bigger bore, new cams, lighter crank,bigger valves, reflowed heads is hotrodding. These are the same technics used by hotrodders for years, ever since there was an internal combustion engine. It's how many forms of racing came about and the aftermarket industry. So when I say that an 1190 is a hotrodded 1125, thats exactly what the did to it, they hotrodded it. | ||
| Hotrats |
Oops. I forgot. | ||
| Court |
Some of this is fact. Some of this is fancy. The motivation of some of the posts is certainly difficult to ascertain. Some being more concerned with teaching a lesson (3rd grade playground politics) than determining what the facts are. Would it . . . . I wonder . . . make any difference if all the various changes were being carefully evaluated for effect, performance and producability and if Erik Buell Racing hired about 400 folks and moved all Rotax production to an industrial park in the suburbs of Chattanooga I haven't really read most of this . . . . I don't learn anything and it makes me pissy to see grown ups act this way. I think there is a lot of amazing stuff in the chamber . . you may want to conclude this silliness and start focusing on what's right . . . . not proving each others are assholes. Just my personal opinion. | ||
| Northernyankee |
I don't think it is anything to do with proving someone as assholes. I think its just that if someone states something that they say is a fact and does not provide any evidence of this "fact", people are going to question it. Say I told you what the meaning of life is and then you asked how I knew this. And then my response was "It just is". Should you just believe me or would you still question me on how I knew this or what proof I have? I think the people here love Buell's and Erik Buell Racing and just want as much knowledge as possible. If Blake has this proof and can't say for one reason or another(NDA), that's fine he should just say that or just not mention that there is a difference at all. Just my 2 cents. | ||
| Dannybuell |
Hotrodding is exactly why I called this thread 'lust' in an earlier post. Everyone here wants every bit of data. Someone in a position of authority was likely making an assumption. Authority Angst. Piling on 10 yards. | ||
| Tpoppa |
Would it . . . . I wonder . . . make any difference if all the various changes were being carefully evaluated for effect, performance and producability and if Erik Buell Racing hired about 400 folks and moved all Rotax production to an industrial park in the suburbs of Chattanooga Is there any actual information in this statement? or just misdirection  | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
northernyankee is on point | ||
| Ljm |
So, at the risk of hijacking this thread, what does the twin motorcycles stage 2 motor cost, anyone? LJM | ||
| Zac4mac |
I really don't understand how this has gone on this long. This NEW bike is an Erik Buell Racing 1190RS, not a Buell 1190RS. In order to sell THIS bike, Erik Buell Racing has to re-make or modify virtually every part so as to not piss off teh MoCo. What is so Effing hard to understand? If you want your 1125 turned into an 1190, I'm sure it can be done. Now or very soon. Some of you need to change your tampon. Z | ||
| Jacob83z28 |
"Rotax – builder and co-developer of the 1125R motor - bought back the rights to the engine from Harley, and it supplies Erik Buell Racing with a core unit that is then fitted with new cylinders, pistons, crank and cams." http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/buell/2011- erik-buell-racing-1190rs-preview-90439.html If this is true wouldn't E B R be able to build 1125 powered bikes and not piss of the MoCo. Oh and this is the first time I've seen an article say "fitted with new cylinders". So maybe they're not the same cylinders. | ||
| Kinder |
This is the paragraph in full from the article. 'Power for the 1190RS comes from a modded Buell 1125R engine, enlarged to 1190cc via a 106mm bore job. Rotax – builder and co-developer of the 1125R motor - bought back the rights to the engine from Harley, and it supplies Erik Buell Racing with a core unit that is then fitted with new cylinders, pistons, crank and cams. Ports are smoothed out with CNC machining. Titanium valves replace steel poppets to allow for higher revs, somewhere in the high 11,000-rpm range, according to Buell. The engine in race tune can spin up to 12,500 rpm. The 1190 motor recently passed EPA testing.' Note the first line. If I send Erik Buell Racing my CR engine and paid them to build me an 1190 one the engine I get back would have the same serial numbers on it as the one I sent them. Just like they do when they get them from Rotax. SAME CASES. SAME ENGINE BUT WITH NEW AND VASTLY IMPROVED PARTS. Rotax doesn't build an 1190 engine. Erik Buell Racing is not having custom cases built. I'm bored and done servicing the trolls now. :P | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
Erik Buell Racing is not having custom cases built. I'm bored and done servicing the trolls now. :P Broad statement to call the board owner a troll | ||
| Court |
And just when you thought you were ending this insanity you find out that ......... | ||
| Blake |
Ohsoslow, It doesn't sound like you understand my view. My view, and what I originally stated was that the 1190 heads are different compared to those on the 1125. They are not the same. They are different. That is irrefutable fact. >>> just like the heads for an 1190, they start out on a stock 1125 get ported polished etc etc they are still the same base part they were when the were cast. They are not still the same base part, as that part has been greatly modified. The 1190 heads get a heck of a lot more than what you describe. They are precision machined and have larger valve seats and valves installed. Only in bizarro world would anyone consider 1190 heads the same as 1125 heads. They are different, meaning not the same. Are the 1190 heads derived from stock 1125 heads? Yes. Are they the same? No. If you tried to swap them onto an 1125 engine, they and the engine would likely be destroyed. I said that they were different. That's all. That is 100% accurate. Rob (Northernyankee), >>> I think its just that if someone states something that they say is a fact and does not provide any evidence of this "fact", people are going to question it. What declared "fact" are you talking about? Michael (Kinder), >>> the engine I get back would have the same serial numbers on it as the one I sent them. You've invented a new straw man point of debate, one that I don't think anyone will challenge. Congratulations! You win that one! If you can focus for a minute, the point that some seem intent on challenging is my statement that the 1190 cylinder heads are different from those on an 1125, an irrefutable fact. Bizarrely, some disagree. For some reason they think that because they start out as 1125 cylinder heads, that no matter how they might be altered, reworked, or modified, they are and will always be the same as 1125 cylinder heads. It's truly inexplicably bizarre. As Court said so astutely and on the button... The motivation of some of the posts is certainly difficult to ascertain. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
Blake What declared "fact" are you talking about?" More than likely speaking of you stating that the cases were different, but unable to back up the claim. I do agree with you on the heads and cylinder stuff. Sure, the outside might be the same, but if the insides are different then it is a whole different animal. Its like stating (using cars for an example) that a base model v6 mustang is the same as a blown v8 shelby - starts the same, which everyone agrees with about heads and cylinders, but the end result is nothing like where it started. | ||
| Northernyankee |
Blake, >>>What declared "fact" are you talking about? I believe that this thread was started in response to your post on the 10th at 5:46pm where in response to the statement >>> Engine cases are the same are they not? No So people asked that you knew that the cases were different and there hasn't been a response. I am not trying to stoke the fire, because I agree that there are many more differences than similarities between the 1125 and 1190. But they do share a lineage and a few parts. | ||
| Ljm |
Can we please kill this thread? We are now just roasting Blake. |
