| Author | Message | ||
     Avc8130 |
"To be honest, I dont think hiring Hayes would benefit ExBxR very much, as it'd be a bit different between the two bikes, he'd have to adapt. May is a skilled rider who knows the handling of the Buells." My point was not that Erik Buell Racing needs Hayes. My point was that it is possible to be VERY competitive without traction control. "I was under the impression the minimum for the twins was in the rule book all along and that ExBxR wouldve been prepared to add weight to their bike" That was EXACTLY my point. I almost cried when I read that the race results were not as hoped because there was no plan for adding the weight. The rule book has been in place all year. "BMW have insisted on producing their own 'in house' electronics package for their WSB effort and they have not been very succesful with that either so far!" How does one measure success? BMW has done at least as well at WSB as Buell has at AMA Superbike. In fact, they are placed 5 and 7 in the championship points standing. Buell is in 10th in the championship points standing. We all consider Buell wildly successful...what's good for the goose should be good for the gander. "It is also cheaper than many people here seem to think " This is where someone interjects that $99k is the same as $100k. | ||
| Trojan |
How does one measure success? BMW has done at least as well at WSB as Buell has at AMA Superbike. In fact, they are placed 5 and 7 in the championship points standing. Buell is in 10th in the championship points standing. We all consider Buell wildly successful...what's good for the goose should be good for the gander. BMW entered WSB with the sole intention of winning the championship. Anything less than that at this stage should be viewed as failure. They have spent more money than almost any other factory team (with the exception of maybe Aprilia) to achieve that aim and are one of the only factories with its own test team. They have been in the series now for 4 or 5 years, so being 5 and 7 in WSB 2011 is a huge embarrasment to BMW. It has recently had a massive change of staff in the race department to try and remedy this (which hasn't worked!) and I think further heads will roll before the end of this season. Now the factory BMW team is being beaten regularly by the satellite Italia Motorrad team (whose engineers are all ex Xerox Ducati) maybe they will listen to the Italian engineers instead of replacing them  I expect Troy Corser to retire at the end of this season and Leon Haslam to jump ship to Aprilia, so excatly how would you say that BMW has been a success story? BMW are the prime example to anyone wanting to run a professional race team that electronics are THE most important part of modern Superbike racing, and that having the industry standard Marelli electronics package is not only advisable but essential. If you enter any race series you should do so with the intention of winning. To do otherwise is a waste of everybodies money and time for a professional race team. In pure racing terms, I do not consider 10th place in AMA Superbike to be any measure of success at all, but just a starting point to improve upon. I'm sure theKTM team view their results in the same way last weekend. It is a reasonable result for a first time out, but not a huge success. If at the end of this season the 1190 is still finishing 10th then it should not be classed as a racing success (It may be a success if your definition of success is to put a (expensive) road bike onto a Superbike grid). If it improves at each meeting and gets closer to the front then yes it will be a success in racing terms. This is where someone interjects that $99k is the same as $100k. It is a lot cheaper than that. It is the salary of the electronics engineer that will cost the most, not the hardware. (Message edited by trojan on July 12, 2011) | ||
| Elvis |
If you look at the photos of the bike, you can see that it looks basically brand new, right off the assembly line. It's not a bike that has logged thousands of track miles. I'm sure that the team would have liked to have had the time and money to thoroughly test the bike prior to the race, but it seems that the very small crew has been busy with other things. Up until very recently it seemed that they might have raced the 1125RR at Ohio and most of the real 'race' time and track prep has likely been devoted to the actual race bike that they have been running all year. They have probably also been doing a lot of testing of the streetbikes in street trim. I suspect there are some people kicking themselves for not doing more testing with the weight prior to Ohio, but it's understandable that they didn't. The face-book post indicates they will be doing some additional teting prior to Laguna Seca, so I'd expect them to have more info. by then and I think improved results are just about a given. A tenth place finish in this field is nothing to be ashamed of, and the knowledge that those results were achieved under less than ideal circumstances is all the more encouraging. I wouldn't be surprised if, barring incidents, Geoff is solidly in the top ten from here on. Anybody want to bet on the contrary? | ||
| Crackhead |
Maybe, there should be a super stock classes(light, medium, and heavy) and eliminate the DSB class. Superbike could become a run what you brought class. For the claim rule to work, the process needs to be out in the open. The competitor walks up to an official with $ points to the bike, and rides away with a bill of sale and the bike. I am a big fan of racing to improve production bikes/ cars BUT to make it work, OEMs need to race production equipment. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
"I suspect there are some people kicking themselves for not doing more testing with the weight prior to Ohio, but it's understandable that they didn't. " Im really unsure of why they wouldnt test with it on, at least somewhere on the bike. As I said, the rules say what the minimum weight is for twins, and its been talked about for some time now, even in articles online it talked about how one of the accessories was the balast to get it up to minimum weight. It was well known they'd have to make weight - so why not put the weight on during testing? Looking forward to seeing what plays out in Laguna Seca Shame I wont get to see them at VIR this year (see thread in racing section about VIR race), I am really wanting to hear and see this thing in person! | ||
| Dannybuell |
Hybridmomentspass - Yes. They surely were testing with the weight. Racers have been known to misdirect. The weight under the seat F/R position is about the middle. | ||
| Blake |
If the 1190RS SBK doesn't do better than the 1125RR, something is horribly wrong. I expect that it will, and quite obviously. Stay tuned. | ||
| Anonymous |
No we weren't testing with the weight. We didn't have time to do so with the huge workload of commitments on us. No one has a clue how tiny this company is. We will learn the setup for the bike and go faster. And we simply cannot afford the high end electronics. We'll find out what we can accomplish by the end of the year. BTW, Josh does not run traction control per se., because he hates electronics screwing with his control. But he does run a very special electronics package that pre-maps the power to each track, that's also too expensive for us. But it shows there are alternative solutions. We may have brought a knife to a gunfight, but we have a hell of a fighter, and we haven't been killed yet. David had only a rock and a sling, but some bravery and brains goes a long way. | ||
| Whitetrashxb |
well said sir, well said Go Erik Buell Racing! | ||
| Ratbuell |
No one has a clue how tiny this company is Some of us do. Can you guys all still fit in a van to go to Gus's for lunch? Or do you need a second car now?  Forget the rest - tenth place is AMAZING for a virgin bike. If you can lead off with that? I see great things ahead. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
Hybridmomentspass - Yes. They surely were testing with the weight. No we weren't testing with the weight. I think this goes along with all of the posts Court and Blake make about all of the false things on the forum. Funny (not funny towards Anony, blak, or Court, just funny that people say things with such certainty which they do not know about). Anony - I understand that it is a very small company and you are all extremely busy getting bikes built so that it IS legal to race, but why not test with the extra weight since you knew you would have to add it on later? There are pictures floating around of May on the 1190 testing it, just dont get why you didnt go ahead and strap it on so there would be less surprises once at the track Keep up the hard work, we're all rooting for you, looking forward to LS! | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
Im aware that it is expensive to test, but they DID test the bike and KNEW they'd have to add the weight to meet the minimum weight requirments to race in AMA American Sport Bike. Thats why Im asking why they wouldnt test with it. I know the 1190 is new. I know testing is expensive. But it still doesnt make me understand why they wouldnt test like they would race. Truly it makes the testing a bit useless, why spend all of that money testing when race day will be SO much different (25lbs extra added onto a 380~lb bike is a lot of weight). Anony has made a few posts in the past two days of saying something like 'we're not crazy, we're poor' which have made me chuckle, I know they are the underdogs in terms of years on track (with bike/team) and money. But there are brilliant minds at ExBxR, you'd think they'd say "hey we dont have tons of money to toss at testing, lets test in race trim" | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
dangit - Court deleted his post, that was who I was responding to He said something about 'take a guess at how much testing costs' and about 'they just recently started testing the 1190' I wanted to clarify that so it doesnt look like Im talking to myself, and answering question that were never asked. | ||
| Elvis |
Hybrid, I think your answer is in the facebook post: "we waaay underestimated the difficulty of set up with the extra 25 lbs of weight strapped on" It seems like they just thought it would be easier and make less difference than it did. Some things seem very easy in hind-sight (have you ever seen "Captain Hindsight" on South Park?) If the gearing had been the problem, we could have said: Couldn't you have done more work with the gearing prior to racing? If fuel mapping had been a problem we could have said: Couldn't you have done more work with mapping prior to racing? To manage a 10th place finish means MOST things went right rather than wrong. And it's refreshing to see someone come out and simply and honestly say what the problem was. If people beat them up so much over something like this, next time they just won't bother telling us what went wrong. (Message edited by elvis on July 12, 2011) | ||
| Avc8130 |
Hybrid, I was going to answer that question too! About $175 for the track day plus salary/expenses. I know someone is going to say "that isn't a REAL test session"...but when you need time on the bike, you take what you can afford. Most track days have groups of "licensed racers". I realize they generally aren't the creme de la creme of AMA and WSBK racers, but those guys look pretty nuts and safe enough to run with to get time/experience on a bike. Think about my amazement when I got the email with the message and came here and it was GONE too! LOL ac (Message edited by avc8130 on July 12, 2011) | ||
| Freezerburn840 |
AMA whines over weight. Yet these teams get the fancy electrical package. Are you serious pre map power to each track? These teams get all these little trinckets because of the coin to do so. Yet Erik Buell Racing gets punished for making a superb handling and light bike. Let me see 25lbs or traction control and advanced electrical package that dictate power to each turn of the track? I think that should be a wash! (Message edited by freezerburn840 on July 12, 2011) | ||
| Blake |
>>> About $175 for the track day plus salary/expenses. Only a moron would imagine that you could accomplish valuable testing of an AMA Superbike being ridden by an AMA professional racer while riding around with a bunch of track day amateurs. That's just dumb! Not to mention the obliteration of the desired secrecy in bringing the bike to market. Like Owens said, the internet is rife with people all to willing to bang away on the keyboard and prove their bewildering foolishness rather than simply be quite and leave some doubt. Owens, >>> That's why I'm asking why they wouldn't test with it. If they were looking to primarily test the endurance and performance of the engine, the weight would not have mattered. If they were looking to test the performance of the street bike in extreme conditions, it wouldn't have mattered. There are a bunch of reasons why they might not have done it. When projects are so fast paced, things fall between the cracks, assumptions are made, not always good. Live and learn. (Message edited by blake on July 12, 2011) | ||
| Avc8130 |
"Only a moron would imagine that you could accomplish valuable testing of an AMA Superbike being ridden by an AMA professional racer while riding around with a bunch of track day amateurs. That's just dumb! Not to mention the obliteration of the desired secrecy in bringing the bike to market." If your budget is tight, you take what you can get. I am willing to bet plenty of the guys deep in the field (especially in DSB) get their testing and tuning done at trackdays. It's all they have/can afford. I feel bad for those morons...or maybe they aren't morons because they don't "imagine" it, they DO it. Like I said...ideal? Certainly not. Better than nothing? Sure. Secrecy makes sense...before release and I can understand that. After release? It would almost be "free" publicity. REALLY neat would be RIDING an 1190RS to the track, pulling the lights and going to town "testing/tuning". I realize this isn't "realistic" from a true racing standpoint, but it sure would solidify what Court keeps saying about how close the bike in the race is to the street bike. I am sure Erik Buell Racing has their reasons for what they did. For all we KNOW, they DID go to a few trackdays. I sure hope they didn't, wouldn't want them to be "morons". You know, for being the OWNER of the board you sure do take some serious liberties in your interpretation of the terms of use. "I will not post profane or vulgar language, nor will I engage in personal attacks nor in malicious derision in any form of other users of the board." It wouldn't be a far-fetched argument to say that quoting someone's post, and then referring to the originator as a "moron" would constitute a personal attack or malicious derision towards that member. You are certainly capable of articulating your mind without being condescending. (Message edited by avc8130 on July 12, 2011) | ||
| Doerman |
Blake did not aim the "moron" remark at you. He said, "only a moron would.." referring to a race team of morons. Testing would entail several session of 18-23 laps at full race speed. That's not possible on a track day. The problems with premature tire wear was not evident until the second half of the mid_oh race. A track day would provide little to no value in evaluating the optimal placement of the weight to minimize handling and tire wear effects. | ||
| Avc8130 |
Yeah, I knew that would be the "loophole"...and why he articulated exactly what he said so well. We can agree to disagree. Most of the trackdays I have been to have a special group for licensed racers. These groups generally have VERY few riders in them...usually less than 10. On a 2 mile track that gets each rider quite a lot of track to work with. Passing is usually allowed in any fashion and the groups usually seem very respectful of each other. 20 minutes would get about 12-15 laps at most tracks, so I can agree that 18-23 laps for endurance would be tough. However, it might help with positioning of weight and getting the suspension set for handling. Tire wear would be really the toughest thing to get a handle on due to the limited laps. You certainly wouldn't want to try 2 sessions back to back with a 40 minute break in between. I know race tires HATE heat cycles and I am not sure a tire warmer would be sufficient. I wonder what the teams do during red flag delays? Do they start with a fresh tire, or just plop warmers on? Like I said: ideal? CERTAINLY NOT. Affordable/feasible? DEFINITELY. (Message edited by avc8130 on July 12, 2011) | ||
| Jdugger |
Av, It's only a couple grand to rent a country-club type track on a weekday when demand is low. That's really the answer to testing. While public track days do have a racer group, the speed differential is substantial. For someone like Geoff, or even a top CMRA expert, the closing speeds vs. someone like me are almost scary to the point of being dangerous. And, by 'normal rider' standards, I'll be perceived as fast. It's hard to comprehend just how fast those guys really are until you are on track with one of them. Mixing them in with ordinary club racers isn't a good idea. For race practice, we separate the groups into lightweight, novice and expert for exactly this reason. Public track days aren't really practical for anything other than having a good time. | ||
| 46champ |
If you think about it they kind of did test at the weight limit. Up till apparently a few days ago the were testing the street bikes which are probably just about at the weight limit. It was probably assumed that if we take 20 to 25 lbs of street stuff off and put 25 lbs of lead on we will will be back at the same point. It most likely is not the weight that is the problem but the balance of the weight. When Friday after the first practice session was over and every one collectively went whoops it was to late to do something about it. I am sure this will not be a problem again after all, all rememberable lessons cost at least a thousand dollars. | ||
| Avc8130 |
Jdugger, Thanks for the realistic and rational explanation. Much more helpful. Honest question: How do the EVEN LITTLER guys do it? Look at the Superbike and DSB point standings. There are a lot of guys with essentially NO backing. Guys who probably work "9-5" and hit up part or all of the series. I wouldn't call them "competitive", but they are certainly doing a bit more than just winging it race weekend to make the grid. ac | ||
| Jdugger |
> How do the EVEN LITTLER guys do it? They come up through club racing such as WERA, CCS or CMRA. | ||
| Avc8130 |
I understand how the "move up". What I am missing is how they "continue" once they are at DSB/WSBK level without ANY support. How do they afford to test/tune? You said those "level" (CCS, CMRA, WERA) racers aren't good enough to test/tune around. I know the last track day I was at Get In Gear was testing and tuning their 1125R for CCS racing. Erik Buell Racing says they can't afford $2k private track days. So I am not sure how they actually do test. I would love to know. Everyone SAYS racing is expensive. Within AMA, clearly Yamaha and Suzuki have big racing budgets. KTM is popping in dumping money left and right. Ducati used to spend a bunch...they seem to be tailing off with the weight penalties pretty much killing their chance. Kawasaki, BMW, Honda don't seem to care. Erik Buell Racing is building a business AROUND AMA racing. Privateers are showing up week in and week out. What are some FACTUAL dollar amounts these different levels are spending? | ||
| Boltrider |
Then you must be willing to lose. Your lack of race knowledge is frightening. | ||
| Jdugger |
I don't know budget figures, but if you have the talent, there are ways to get on track that don't break the bank, at least around here. And, preparing for CCS and for AMA Superbike is a totally different deal. Have you heard the name Danny Kelsey? He got 18th and 13th in the superbike race at Barber. He's a local boy, and I've seen him at the track from time-to-time. I know he gets in some of his serious practice and training on weekdays when the track isn't busy. I'm far from wealthy, and I certainly don't pay $2k for track days, but I've had more than a few opportunities to have the track all to myself. Last year I had a couple of weeks off work, and managed to do 7 straight track days. 3 of them I was all by myself. There's a whole different world out there if you poke around a bit. I don't do many public track days... | ||
| Avc8130 |
Then you must be willing to lose. Your lack of race knowledge is frightening. Enlighten me. Don't just make comments about lack of knowledge. If you have the knowledge: SHARE IT. This is the internet and a forum. Knowledge sharing is one of the best results of forums. $2k/day to rent a private track per JDugger (who I believe would actually KNOW). If Erik Buell Racing can't afford it...how are the even littler guys doing it? SERIOUSLY? It continues to amaze me how people can just pound on their keys and be frightened by things they read on the internet, while being completely incapable of adding anything of value or truth themselves. (Message edited by avc8130 on July 12, 2011) (Message edited by avc8130 on July 12, 2011) | ||
| Avc8130 |
JDugger, It is funny that you chose Danny Kelsey. He was one of the names that I noticed when I looked deeper into the standings. I appreciate your honest and factual based input. I only mentioned the local guys prepping for CCS, because you said CCS guys can't prepare with AMA due to the different skill levels, but then said the AMA guys come from CCS. From what I am gathering, CCS level racing is acceptable to practice in race class at trackdays and is like the "minor leagues" for AMA. AMA level is just too insane for any type of practice at trackdays. We have established that anyone serious with AMA (even if they only run 2 races annually) is practicing/tuning/training/testing at more exclusive track sessions. New problem: If Danny Kelsey, who doesn't even have a bio on the AMA site, and shows no sponsor/manufacturer listed, is able to "afford" practice/test/tune sessions...it must not be the cost of the track time that is the problem. Most likely it is the entourage. Kelsey probably shows up to the track with his bike in a VW van and his dog is his crew chief. (Message edited by avc8130 on July 12, 2011) | ||
| Jdugger |
Well, if you want some additional insight, here's Danny's tech talking about building the bike and the Barber experience on the CMRA board. It's a really nice read. http://www.cmraracing.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.ph p?ubb=showflat&Number=153787#Post153787 Danny gets faster and prepares partly by racing the other CMRA best, Ty Howard, Derek Wagnon, etc. In the AMA, the odds of a race ending without a current or former CMRA member on the box is rather low. The guys at the top of the CMRA are so seriously fast it's amazing. Danny is a really talented rider. *really* talented. |
