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Jdugger
| | Posted on Friday, July 08, 2011 - 01:09 pm: | 
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> Why not just measure the run-out at each mounting boss, and employ custom thickness copper shim-washers accordingly?
Because under heavy braking the thinner shims wear through, and the SS rotors actually wear into the Mg mounting tabs on the wheel, dynamically changing the shims required. That's been my approach up until recently. I'm discovering if I shim from the bottom, it's good for a short period of time (like 2-3 hard laps). If I shim from the top, using a thicker base copper washer, it's more consistent during the course of heavy use.
I think machining is the correct answer, too, but it's not without consequence. Both the "upper" tab and "lower" tab have to be machined, and the relative depth between the two must be maintained since the top hat bushing and copper washer assembly depend on this relationship. It's conceivable I could get into a situation where I actually have to shim how the caliper mounts to the fork. But overall, I think it's a good idea, and I do plan to have it done.
On an on-going basis, one does have to service the disc springs, as they anneal under high heat loads, leaving the rotor loose. I've been trying some inconel springs, but I've not found an exact match, so the ones I've tried aren't a perfect solution.
As for airflow, yes... I'm working on that, too. That's really a different issue, one more related to pad and rotor wear than how the rotor deflects under hard use, but if I can keep the rotor cooler, some of the other issues will be reduced for sure. |
Buell101
| | Posted on Friday, July 08, 2011 - 03:40 pm: |
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The problem is your racing with the ZTL3... (Rhetorical question)No Buell contingency why bother?
I'm a simple guy, and don't have time to fiddle F around, this is my solution and it's available. Other than a fork upgrade, haven't touched my front brake system in 2 years.
But the ZTL3 won DSB and it works... Before this fuels another debate if this statement comes from someone who has never raced, has personal investment in it, get paid big bucks to ride it and doesn't turn there own wrench means 2 things, Jack and Shit... and Jack left town
I'm optimistic in Erik Buell Racing and the new system, hope it works out I do like the concept... I digress |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, July 08, 2011 - 05:41 pm: |
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>>> But the ZTL3 won DSB and it works... Before this fuels another debate if this statement comes from someone who has never raced, has personal investment in it, get paid big bucks to ride it and doesn't turn there own wrench means 2 things, Jack and Shit... and Jack left town
Perhaps in your case it means Jack offed on the internet. 
For some racers the significant savings in unsprung mass is worth having to do a little brake maintenance. If you've not touched your brakes in two years, you are not riding much, certainly not on the track.
You forgot to note the four wins in Open Superbike by the Pegasus Race Team by Harald Kitsch on the 1190RR.
I for one appreciate the efforts of people like Jim who don't just give up and throw away new improved tech in favor of old tried and true. |
Court
| | Posted on Friday, July 08, 2011 - 06:44 pm: |
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We fear that which we fail to understand. |
Chessm
| | Posted on Friday, July 08, 2011 - 08:11 pm: |
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that and stators |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, July 08, 2011 - 10:43 pm: |
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I can relate to the stator issue. Had three fail on my old Yamaha. Turned out the thing was running lean, thus hot and the extra heat was not helping the issue. |
Jdugger
| | Posted on Friday, July 08, 2011 - 11:06 pm: |
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> I for one appreciate the efforts of people like Jim who don't just
> give up and throw away new improved tech in favor of old tried and true.
Well, thanks for the kudos. I'm surprised to hear you say that, though, since many of the issues I've struggled with you have previously argued were not really issues with the brake.
> For some racers the significant savings in unsprung mass is worth having to do a little brake maintenance.
Unfortunately, my wheels ain't any lighter than current crop Japanese bikes. The front is about the same as a ZX-6 or CBR1000... the rear is really heavy. As we have discussed before, the design has an inherent advantage, but that's long been wiped out by comparing current crop Japanese wheels to the 10-year-old Buell ones. The Buell wheels are very heavy for what they are and aren't that high of quality.
So, I'm kinda thinking about those PVMs. They would be super-light. And, lighter than a PVM with a dual-rotor setup. But $2600. Ouch.
At this point, I have the ZTL working as well outright as any brake system I've used, and now it's about getting the wear rates down to more reasonable levels. In the hot summer, I can nearly smoke a whole set of $200 brake pads in a weekend, and in just a few weekends toss a rotor. That's not normal at my skill level.
I have a caliper getting milled out for more air flow this week, and a couple of other tricks up my sleeve I'm hopeful will further stabilize the system. I like the ZTL, but I'm not convinced based on my experience with it that it's the best choice for amateur level racing.
Geoff gets a new rotor and fresh set of pads every day he rides.
Me? Not so much. |
Wolfridgerider
| | Posted on Friday, July 08, 2011 - 11:22 pm: |
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Bob Evans 8:15 AM for breakfast
36/37 & 71 if anyone wants to ride up |
Mickeyq
| | Posted on Friday, July 08, 2011 - 11:40 pm: |
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Just got Cycle World and Steve Anderson has a "first ride" article of the 1190RS. Needless to say this bike is very refined! Good luck tomorrow to Erik, Geoff and everyone in the Buell..."Erik Buell Racing" team!!! |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, July 09, 2011 - 12:32 am: |
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Jim,
<sigh>
>>> I'm surprised to hear you say that, though, since many of the issues I've struggled with you have previously argued were not really issues with the brake.
Jim, I only argued against inflammatory assertions and that what you have dealt with isn't an issue for street bikes or even most folks running track days.
The good news is that solutions are available via Erik Buell Racing in the way of a new ducted brake system with a new rotor and hardware, and new OEM Erik Buell Racing wheels that are multiple pounds lighter than anything else out there.
It's great the other manufacturers have finally approached the old Buell ZTL wheel tech, but with the Erik Buell Racing incarnation of that they are once again multiple pounds behind with no apparent means of making up the difference.
You like to pretend that current OEM wheels are lighter than the old Buell ZTL-II system, but they are not, not when brakes and bracketry are included. We've already been though that. Fact are facts. They are certainly much closer, but still no cigar.
But no matter, the Erik Buell Racing system that Geoff May is running on his 1190, an OEM brake and wheel system, is the current benchmark in the industry. |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, July 09, 2011 - 12:38 am: |
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>>> I like the ZTL, but I'm not convinced based on my experience with it that it's the best choice for amateur level racing.
If the weight difference is negligible, then you may be right. But then compare to the Erik Buell Racing system and rethink that logic.
What is best is what wins. All else being roughly equal, the bike that holds line and grip better will perform better. Four or more pounds of unsprung mass removed from the front of a motorcycle benefits grip. It's a huge advantage. Just ask the Japanese engineers who have been slaving away trying to remove mere ounces from their conventional wheel/brake systems.
I don't know if the Erik Buell Racing rear wheel will fit up to an 1125, but if it does, that is yet another industry leading innovation that you could employ to good effect. |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, July 09, 2011 - 12:53 am: |
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Hey Jim,
What color are the rotors on Fillmore's KTM at Mid Ohio? They must have a huge heat problem?
 |
Jdugger
| | Posted on Saturday, July 09, 2011 - 07:26 am: |
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The edges look barely gold if even that to me, but it's hard to tell in this picture. That's how you can tell if there's heat build up problems in the rotor.
And, if you will go and WEIGH the current crop of OEM wheels you will be surprised. The fronts, all in including calipers, bolts, pads, etc., are within a pound or two, and the rears are DRAMATICALLY lighter. Like, 5-6lbs for their assembly vs. the Buell.
Like you said: facts are facts.
Again, it's the wheel (and to some extent the very heavy belt pulleys and on the front the heavy ztl2 caliper) causing the issue, not the design. A better execution of the ZTL design would produce a more favorable outcome, but that did not happen on the 1125r.
As for the 1190 wheels fitting up, I know the front uses a different axle, and I suspect the rear uses the chain drive axle. So, for the rear, a simple bearing change along with the right spacers and it should work. For the front, I doubt a bearing change is an option, so that means new forks.
One could just get a set of PVM wheels right now, and that would help with weight a lot, but they are very expensive.
I did notice the 1190 is running a PVM rear at Mid-ohio, though. |
Buell101
| | Posted on Saturday, July 09, 2011 - 10:37 pm: |
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For some racers the significant savings in unsprung mass is worth having to do a little brake maintenance. If you've not touched your brakes in two years, you are not riding much, certainly not on the track.
If I have to explain it you won't understand.... How many times have you backed it in going in to a turn at the track Blake? This is why your text book statements are riding shotgun with Jack and the only one jacking off is you and Court all over the ZTL3. 
And what racers, remember ZTL3 here? and don't go back to DSB championship well. Because you forget the golden rule in motorsports "there is no replacement for displacement" and I'm sure you can find out what Danny really thought of the ZTL3 I believe I read it in RRW and his context was a disadvantage. anyway what other org. than the AMA let's 1125r race in the 600's class? Let me know I'm in!
You forgot to note the four wins in Open Superbike by the Pegasus Race Team by Harald Kitsch on the 1190RR.
ummm the scope of my statement is stock ZTL3 and club racing, I hope you didn't think I'm at an AMA level and can afford a 1190RS. Anyway I seriously doubt that's what the boys in Germany are running on their 1190.
We fear that which we fail to understand.
Court your just a gloried salesman for Erik Buell Racing and have a mind set that your product is the superior, period. I appriciate the inside scoop you provide but when it comes to racing the 1125r at club level keep the comments to yourself.
Jdug.. keep up the good fight, as I don't have the patience or funds to mess around with the ZTL3. I had bad experiances with and considered it a safety hazard and that was at beginner pace. The 3 hours I spent switching the front is well worth it. If there was a Buell contingency, I be asking you all sorts of questions...
Make this really simple, weigh the rim and rotor only and Blake get out your text book and find the formula for rotating mass, because in my opinion that's where the real advantage of keeping a line come to effect. I'd confirm it with Blake, I bet he gave Rossi the idea of throwing a leg out in during heavy breaking.
Just ask the Japanese engineers who have been slaving away trying to remove mere ounces from their conventional wheel/brake systems
ok why does yamaha's street bike uses 310mm rotor but in race trim use 320mm? That's a weight saving right? of course we'll have to have Blake confirm it. |
Clarkjw
| | Posted on Sunday, July 10, 2011 - 12:21 am: |
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Don't get mad. Most of these guys don't even do track days and court doesn't even own an 1125 |
Indy_bueller
| | Posted on Sunday, July 10, 2011 - 12:46 am: |
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I've raced the ZTL1 at club level and never had a problem with it, along with the dozen or so guys that race Buells at Blackhawk Farms on a regular basis. |
Jetbuilder
| | Posted on Sunday, July 10, 2011 - 04:31 am: |
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On the ZTL one system I went with the Brembo master cyl and EBC racing pads it did well no fade. I run lightweight superbike and formula 40. On my 1125R I am using the EBC race pads and there ok. I am thinking of going with either the Brembo or the Nissin pro master cyl. I have personally had no issues with fade with the ZTL2 at VIR and I am 240lbs with gear.
Red |
Jdugger
| | Posted on Sunday, July 10, 2011 - 09:12 am: |
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> I've raced the ZTL1 at club level and never had a problem with it,
The XBs never really go fast enough to need a better brake. Add another 20-30 MPH (or quite a bit more) into every braking zone, every corner on the track, and it's a lot more energy you have to find a way to throw away.
Just like someone who says "I can stoppie mine".. it's a data point, but has nothing to do with the issues I'm facing which are related to heavy, repeat braking from high speeds generating a ••••••••• of heat.
My offer continues to be open: Come to ECR. Ride balls out on a 100F day and tell me how it works for you.
I have the ZTL2 (well, my version of it) performing well now. It took a lot of work, and a whole ton of non-OEM parts, but it's working. (no one here has a ZTL3 because it doesn't exist.) It doesn't fade, and the feel is good. But, the service intervals are ridiculous. I burn through rotors and brake pads almost as fast as tires. So, now it's time to work on that -- to not give up the performance, but get the cost of this brake system in check.
It's a heat related problem. |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, July 10, 2011 - 11:51 am: |
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J. (Buell101),
If you've not touched your brakes in two years, you are not riding much, certainly not on the track. Period.
Not many professional racers are backing their bikes into turns these days. But most do have the rear wheel near floating when they are hard on the brakes. I've had the back end of the Cyclone waggling around coming into many a turn on the track and have made almost all my passes on the brakes, some in a downhill turn entry.
You don't start gridded dead last in a field of twenty plus and end up near the podium without being hard on the brakes racing a Buell Cyclone against Ducati 998's, R6's, CBR600's, and GSXR600's in an eight lap sprint race.
I'm no pro, but I was far from the slowest man on the track racing in the CMRA.
What the heck is ZTL3? 
Jim,
The ducted cooling system, new rotor, and race caliper is the solution you are looking for. It already exists. Good honest people who know have advised you to try it. Not much work involved, just more money. You know about racing, yes? The proverbial hole in the ground into which you pour money? |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, July 10, 2011 - 11:58 am: |
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The Cyclone when through a set of pads (I changed them once they were down to half thickness) every track day, but I just ran the stock pads. I tried some EBC racing pads once, but they wore out even worse and caused horrible issues as they wore wildly wedge-shaped; they made the front chatter and shake like crazy when leaned over hard on the brake. Not fun. |
Rkc00
| | Posted on Sunday, July 10, 2011 - 08:43 pm: |
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Reepicheep
| | Posted on Sunday, July 10, 2011 - 09:33 pm: |
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Um, I thought carbon fiber bodywork was illegal in superbike? |
Ratbuell
| | Posted on Sunday, July 10, 2011 - 09:43 pm: |
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I don't think they consider a fender (or a ZTL air duct) "bodywork".
Fairing.
Windscreen.
Tank.
Tail section.
Side fairings.
Bellypan.
I believe THOSE are what they consider "bodywork". The major items. You won't see much weight savings swapping a front fender from 'glass to CF...but all that other stuff will make a noticable difference. |
Jdugger
| | Posted on Monday, July 11, 2011 - 09:50 am: |
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I had relatively good luck with the EBCs for a while, but as I got faster I simply couldn't get enough braking from them. I would literally grab the brake and squeeze as hard as I could and the bike just wouldn't slow down. I like the Nissans that Erik Buell Racing sells right now the best. They are really grabby and seem to have reasonable life given what they are.
I tried the Performance Friction ones, and those would be a good choice for someone who just wants to slam on the brakes and squeeze, but my small hands (I 4-finger brake) could never generate enough lever pressure to get the bike to stop with those pads. Those pads last forever, but they didn't work for me.
So, this week the following is happening:
1. Another new 5mm finned rotor will go on.
2. My extra caliper is at the machine shop getting vented, ported, milled, whatever. Hopefully it will be here by the weekend.
3. My wheel is at the machine shop getting the mounting tabs re-machined.
I think that may get things under control.
For now, the duct isn't available, partly because it depends on the 1190 fork-set for mounting, so it's not a simple bolt-on to use with the 1125r.
From this weekend. 3 track days. Sigh.
 |
Court
| | Posted on Monday, July 11, 2011 - 10:28 am: |
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>>>For now, the duct isn't available, partly because it depends on the 1190 fork-set for mounting, so it's not a simple bolt-on to use with the 1125r.
It is'nt yet but as time and tide dictate I'd sure like to see a version made that will fit up to the 1125.
Much, and folks had to leave the world of motorcycling entirely, has been learned about the front brake. Thank the inability to use IP belonging to others and being forced to a "clean sheet".
I suspect, and Steve A could talk to the specifics, that you may also see a retrofit rotor absent any holes or slots that go all the way through. |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, July 11, 2011 - 11:32 am: |
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JD,
Your rotor appears no more heat-affected than Geoff's at Mid Ohio this weekend.
Photo by Bill (Reepicheep) Kilgallon |
Court
| | Posted on Monday, July 11, 2011 - 11:48 am: |
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That's kind of interesting . . . they look nearly identical and I'm sitting here, with my Holiday Inn scratch pad, trying to calculate the difference in forces.
Braking forces rise with the square of the speed, right?
Geoff, if I recall, was seeing speeds approaching 170mph.
I have a bunch of detailed photos I took of brakes on other bikes I'll be eager to review. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Monday, July 11, 2011 - 11:48 am: |
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Thanks Blake, I actually specifically took that shot to add information to threads on these topics.
I was debating on if I should post it, as the signal to noise ratio wasn't always the best on this topic, but decided to put it up because the shot just looked really cool to me.
I have a much higher resolution copy if it would help. |
Jdugger
| | Posted on Monday, July 11, 2011 - 12:16 pm: |
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That's a great shot. Thank you for that, since I notice a couple of things. And, looking at that hardware gives me a couple of ideas, too.
Court,
It's hard to make a comparison, because we don't know from how far and in what distance Geoff was required to consistently drop speed. Any two different tracks are going to be vastly different in their braking requirements. Surely you have heard the phrase "that track is hard on brakes"? I don't know anythind about Mid-Ohio other than what I've seen on TV.
A great example is TWS vs. ECR here in TX. TWS is a high speed, flowing track with a trap speed for even the 1125r in the 150-160 range. Many of the corners are 3rd gear. ECR is ALL 2nd gear corners, has 3 long straights, and everything is tight. Even though it's slower as far as top speeds (135ish on an 1125r), it's much harder on the brakes. (much) It's a different animal entirely.
Also worth considering is I'm riding in sustained 100F+ ambient temps, while this weekends race in Lexington, KY had a high of just 91F. Throw in the ported caliper and cooling duct, and even given Geoff's dramatically better riding skills, it's not unreasonable to me that I'm achieving comparable brake system temperatures, even at lower speeds and skill levels.
And, guys, don't forget we are talking about an 1125r here, NOT an 1190. I do not own an 1190. I own and race two 1125r bikes. |
Court
| | Posted on Monday, July 11, 2011 - 12:21 pm: |
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I think it would be interesting for one of you folks that are fluent in racing the 1125 to try one of these new rotors and the ducting (top and bottom) when it become available.
No clue what impact it would have but it would be interesting. |
Jdugger
| | Posted on Monday, July 11, 2011 - 03:18 pm: |
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> I think it would be interesting for one of
> you folks that are fluent in racing the 1125
I'm hopeful to be trying a combination of a new rotor, a machined caliper, and the 'evolved' mounting set-up I've come to on my own in the next week or two.
As I've said before, I'm now beyond the brake just outright failing. Getting the service intervals to something more reasonable is my goal now. Any advantage a more heat-stable rotor, and better dissipation through airflow I can achieve is pure bonus. |
Smoke
| | Posted on Monday, July 11, 2011 - 04:10 pm: |
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did Bluegrass get opened up in Lexington? good luck with your brake issues.
tim |
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