| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
I'm obviously confused. Sorry Matt. Sorry Dave. >>> AMA bikes are almost Superstock spec with upgraded suspension as far as I know You could just as well say that "WSBK bikes are almost AMA spec with upgraded engine as far as I know." Graham (Lemonchili) worked up a good comparison a few years back. Not sure how it stands today. Interesting to note that AMA allowed one optional piston of same or greater weight where WSBK allows any piston kit as long as it is freely available and for same price as OEM. I like the WSBK approach better in that case. I don't think you can make a case that Josh Hayes or any of the current AMA SBK contenders rise to the level of a Ben Spies or Matt Mladin and thus not Carlos Checa. Relative tire performance is interesting. The WSBK race was a LOT longer, and the WSBK Pirellis seemed to prove themselves very well versus the Dunlops of the AMA. | ||
| Blake |
Looking only at factory bikes used in both series, which takes the Aprilia out of the mix, comparing trap speeds might be revealing. Maximum WSBK qualifying speed during qualifying was 311.0 KPH (192.7 MPH) for Marco Melandri (another MotoGP star) versus 186.3 MPH for Tommy Hayden in AMA. Power-wise, since aerodynamically limited top speed is proportional to the cube of engine power, that indicates as much as a 10% advantage for WSBK. The outright maximum trap speed for WSBK, 315.5 KPH (195.7 MPH) was achieved by Biaggi on his Aprilia RSV4 Factory. http://www.amaproracing.com/rr/events/results_deta il.cfm?year=2011&eid=2011011115&discipline=RR&clas s=SB&type=Q&rnum=1&did=3246 http://sbk.perugiatiming.com/pdf_frame.asp?p_S_Cam pionato=SBK&p_Anno=2011&p_Round=USA | ||
| Anonymous |
The bikes in AMA Superbike are not at all close to stock. This is a weird story that continues to circulate, which is unfortunate as then people don't take the class seriously. Pegram was riding a $120,000 one year old WSBK 1198 Ducati last year, doctored to look like a $40,000 1098R. To get a Japanese bike to run in the front pack is $100,000+ Cycle World did one for E Boz last year. You are allowed to port heads, have special pistons, change valves (but not material), change cams and springs,unlimited electronics, etc. The R1's have massive frame modifications, (although not quite as extreme as in WSBK, where they actuaslly move the fuel tank to a new location and run a fake replica). Mag wheels are allowed, any level of suspension, etc., etc. WSBK is allowed more, but the whole story going around that the AMA Superbikes are Superstock bikes (started by Mladin because he was mad at the AMA), is absolutely not true. A couple of significant limiters to performance compared to WSBK are the tires, which are not as quick as the Pirellis, and the spec Sunoco 260 fuel, which dramnatically drops power from what is allowed in WSBK. On an 1125RR that fuel difference is well over 10HP. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Fresno, it was some great racing, even in the wet conditions. I was there. I guess you definition of great is significantly different than my definition of great. Can't put a finger on why, but some tracks lend itself to better racing. Miller might be a world class facility, but the quality of racing isn't all that great. IMO of course. | ||
| Blake |
FIM Superstock, which Matt refers to, may not be near stock bikes either, though the name sure leads one to believe it. If it's anything like FIM Supersport (rules akin to the old AMA Formula Xtreme), it probably isn't. Sounds like the fuel accounts for most of the 10% difference. That's really interesting. For reference, Geoff May's best qualifying trap speed on the ol' Buell 1125RR was 174.4 MPH. Surely the significantly improved aerodynamics, and power of the Erik Buell Racing 1190RS will give #99 a fighting chance to run with the leaders in American Superbike. If the EBR 1190RS can be made to handle as good as or better than the 1125RR, (not much of an "if") the game in American Superbike is about to change. Prepare for an onslaught of naysaying from the IL4 fanboys. There will be no avoiding it. | ||
| Jaimec |
Carlos has DEFINITELY found his mojo this year. I hope he can pull it off; it's a long time coming. WTF has happened to Biaggi in one year?? He looks like a rookie out there!! | ||
| Trojan |
FIM Superstock, which Matt refers to, may not be near stock bikes either, though the name sure leads one to believe it. If it's anything like FIM Supersport (rules akin to the old AMA Formula Xtreme), it probably isn't. You are right. FIM Superstock bikes do NOT have bog standard stock showroom engines any more than AMA Superbikes do. The more money you or your team have the more you can do of course, but certainly blueprinting and balancing are done to a fine degree. No way would you even gte a showrom bike on the back of the grid these days in Superstock. Likewise Supersport. These motors put out around 150bhp compared to the 122bhp of the Moto2 spec CBR600 engines. Supersport engines last for one race only between major rebuilds, hence the introduction of 600 Supersport to try and redress the balance and get back to 'stock' racing. Unfortunately the tuners are also running rampant in this class now right down to national level. | ||
| Blake |
FIM seems all too comfortable with deceitful naming of their support classes. What in AMA was Formula Xtreme in FIM was "Supersport". Makes no sense. These are the same folks who are still allowing Ducati to call their 1198cc superbike entry by the name "1098R." | ||
| Davegess |
deceitful naming  Come on, nobody really cares. Certainly no more that anyone thinks NASCAR is deceitful. Folks think FORD won a race. That "stock" car has almost no FORD parts. Fans want fast and trick not slow and stock. | ||
| Jaimec |
You're right, Dave. There's NOTHING "stock" about stock car racing. Unless you can find me a V-8 powered, two-door, rear-wheel drive Taurus anywhere on the street... then maybe I'll believe it. | ||
| Crusty |
Or a V 8 powered rear wheel drive Toyota. | ||
| Trojan |
What in AMA was Formula Xtreme in FIM was "Supersport". Makes no sense. These are the same folks who are still allowing Ducati to call their 1198cc superbike entry by the name "1098R." Formula Xtreme is nothing like Supersport really. Supersport allows only proscribed tuning (although some will take it very close to the limits obviously) and everything is laid out in black and white what you can and can't do. It really doesn't matter what Ducati call their bike, so long as it follows the rule book, which it does. Aprilia are probably closer to 'cheating' than Ducati (for a change) with the RSV4, although it follows the letter of the Superbike rules (if not the spirit) so is perfectly legal too. | ||
| Blake |
Matt, The former AMA Formula Xtreme had almost identical 600cc tech rules as FIM Supersport. | ||
| Jaimec |
Carlos is on a roll! I think he'll get his first World Title, and if he's SMART (unlike Mr. Biaggi) he'll retire too. Max should've gone out on a high. His performance this year is downright embarrassing. | ||
| Trojan |
Checa seems to have had a new lease of life since getting on the Althea Ducati, and I have to admit my opinion of him has changed dramatically since then as well. He now looks extremely smooth and effortless compared to his old 'crash and burn' Careless Chuca style of riding. I too hope he wins it this year, but I don't think he will retire next year. The pressure to continue will be too great I think. Max doesn't look anything like his old self adn makes far too many mistakes, rescued only by a very fast bike built just for him (Camier struggles on what is apparently not the same spec as Biaggi gets). Sykes looked good in superole and race one on the Kawasaki and is starting to show flashes of what he is truly capable of. Hopefully that will continue  Pity about the injury to Johnny Rea in warm up. He will miss the next round at least and his season looks to be going from bad to worse  BMW must be wondering what they have to do to get a win! Now that the 'second string' Italia team are up to speed Badovini is starting to show up the factory team on a pretty regular basis with what is acknowledged to be a lesser spec bike. Maybe Haslam and Corser should just use their bikes instead | ||
| Jaimec |
I'd heard that the BMWs make too much power and smoke their tires... but they still get dropped in the long straights by the Aprilia. I don't see how they could make so much power they destroy the tires, but not enough power to keep up with the Aprilia. There's a disconnect there somewhere. | ||
| Trojan |
There's a disconnect there somewhere I agree. I think the problem is that they make all their power at the top of the rev range, so to save the tyre they have had to knock off the power. Almost every other team in WSB is using the Marelli electronics which are very advanced and have been developed over years of use. BMW insist on continuing to try and develop their own system, which just isn't working. Haslam raced at Philip Island (his best result this year) with EVERYTHING switched off apparently, so they obviously have a way to go yet. Aprilia basically have a MotoGP bike that they have managed to sneak around the WSB rules, and their engine management software seem to offer the best compromise between power and tyre wear so far. Yamaha and Kawasaki have found that they have had to knock power off the top end to keep the rear tyre in one piece too, so power in itself is no longer the answer | ||
| Jaimec |
Easy enough for Aprilia to do... make it a production model and "Voila!" it's good to go in WSBK. What would stop Ducati from doing the same thing with the Desmosedici? Except, of course, for the price of one Desmosedici you could buy almost THREE Aprilia RSV4s. If the RSV4 is a MotoGP bike, then it's the cheapest one I've ever heard of. | ||
| Gaesati |
There is probably a quantum leap between Max's bike and the RSV4 for sale in the dealers. I wonder how big is the gap between an 1198R and the non-althea ducati of SMRZ? | ||
| Trojan |
There is probably a quantum leap between Max's bike and the RSV4 for sale in the dealers. There is apparently a leap between Biaggis RSV4 and Camiers/Hagas, although everyone gets a bit reluctant to talk when asked about it specifically. Suffice to say, what Max wants Max gets in the Aprilia garage. | ||
| Trojan |
There is probably a quantum leap between Max's bike and the RSV4 for sale in the dealers. There is apparently a leap between Biaggis RSV4 and Camiers/Hagas, although everyone gets a bit reluctant to talk when asked about it specifically. Suffice to say, what Max wants Max gets in the Aprilia garage. | ||
| Jaimec |
You can get a Max Biaggi replica RSV4 and though it costs more than twice the price of the RSV4 "Factory" it is still $20,000 (US) less than a Desmosedici. | ||
| Imonabuss |
Right. That replica is "just like" Max's bike... | ||
| Trojan |
Right. That replica is "just like" Max's bike... If it is, then Leon Camier and Nori Haga will first in line to buy one! We have a customer who bought an RSV4 Factory when they first arrived here. He raved about it as a track bike but then when the starter motor broke he had to wait 8 weeks for a replacement!! When they eventually changed it they managed to spill batery acid all over his nice rear wheel, stripping the paint He is now waiting months for a new wheel. | ||
| Jaimec |
It's just like Max's bike as the Desmosedici is JUST like Capirex's bike was. | ||
| Imonabuss |
I agree, Jaimec and Trojan. Even over here Larry Pegram was racing "$40,000 1098R's", that somehow turned magically into $120,000 F09's when he switched to BMW and put the Ducati's up for sale! There is so much BS around what bikes are really being raced. The talk of American Superbikes being the same as Supersport is not true. It was started by Mladin who was pissed that he wouldn't be dominant any more, and pushed on those who don't know better by some of his media fanboiz. But the bikes in AMA front pack are $100,000 plus, plus, plus. If what we hear about the Erik Buell Racing1190RS is true, that all it needs is a pipe, an ECM, and compression bumped, it'll be the lowest cost bike on the grid. | ||
| Jaimec |
Any theories as to why Badovini on the Italian BMW effort seems to be so much faster than Haslam and Corser on the "Factory Bike?" I'm finding this intriguing. Too bad Toseland hasn't had much opportunity to ride it this year. | ||
| Gaesati |
I suspect that Badovini's bike is lower spec and makes LESS horsepower and is not as hard on tyres. Or Badovini might be a new rising star. On another note, the Ducati juggernaut seems unstoppable even though it is no longer a full(?) factory effort. Funny, that they cut costs in one area and return to dominance while the motogp area they have thrown massive resources at has faltered. | ||
| Jaimec |
Yeah, and Ducati pulled some •••• and bull story about not being able to be competitive against the "thinly disguised MotoGP bikes" on the WSBK grid, too. Bunch of spoiled children... they really wanted WSBK to make yet MORE concessions for them, and when they didn't they just took their ball and went home. | ||
| Simond |
True, but don't expect them to be at the front at Silverstone and Brno where power counts. According to Haslam it is the higher spec and electronics that are the problem with the factory BMW. Don't forget that both Haslam and Corser were both pretty beaten up this weekend too. I enjoyed watching Leon Camier closing in on Max towards the end of the first race but he was nowhere in race 2. Anyone know what happened? |
