| Author | Message | ||
     Coyote_xb12s |
Has anyone else felt the front handling on the lightning a bit "nervous"? I have been trying to remedy the situation, raised the forks up a bit, put on some lower handlebars, tinkered with the settings a bit, but to no avail. I am going to lower the front forks to see if that helps. My last bike was a Kawasaki zx7r, one of the best handling bikes out there. That bike would stay on whatever line you picked and not waver. I can't seem to have that confidence with my XB12S | ||
| Davegess |
relax your grip on the bars. The S will be hugley sensitive to unintended inputs as many other Buells are. | ||
| Fullpower |
hey coyote. try 36 psi in each tire. i have found the lightning to be a very stable bike. the bike will idle in first gear with me standing on the pegs, hands in my pockets. it is also rock stable with no hands on the bars in variable crosswinds, at any speed ver 35mph. it is easier to ride than any other bike i have been on. it seems that you may be having unintended steering influence, try a lighter touch on the bars. good luck, dean | ||
| Rsh |
Raising the forks in the triple clamps will make the bike even more twitchy. Do you have the front and rear preload set correctly for your weight? that is the first and most important step for proper handling. The factory settings are usually not correct unless the dealer preset the preload for you upon delivery. Next set the rebound damping, you can start with the manuals settings for the type of riding you do or try an initial rebound setting using the 1 second rule and go for a ride and check for the extremes such as wallow which is not enough rebound or hopping/skipping which is to much rebound and adjust as required. Last adjust the compression damping which is a personal preference setting.When adjusting the suspension take notes and only make one change at a time. The XB's are very sensitive to suspension adjustments and a 1/4 to 1/2 turn here and there can make dramatic changes, you can get lost easily if you do not keep track of what changes you have made for better or worse.I also found this chart helpful.  Click on above image to visit Marcus McBain's site to see a legible version of the above chart. If you find his information useful, please let him know and make a donation to the Road Racing World action fund (for implementation of added safety measures at American motorcycle racing venues. edited by blake on November 26, 2003 | ||
| Kaudette |
Definitely have a look at the suspension settings - I've had an R and an S - and set up the same, they are exactly the same in terms of handling - sturdy and stable as can be. Sounds like not enough preload and too much rebound and compression - forget playing with fork heights - just follow the manual for susp setup. | ||
| Glitch |
Rsh: Is there a link to that image? The quality you had to reduce it to here makes it so it's impossible to read at any magnification. | ||
| Fly |
Glitch, See http://www.roadracinghelp.com/LessonBook/CH2/Slide21.JPG for original. Don't know how accurate this info is, but anything helps. | ||
| Hippo888 |
Coyote, What do you mean by "nervous"? If you are complaining about the constant handlebar pressure needed to make a turn, I've found that lowering the forks in the triple clamps works wonders. I think I lowered mine about 5-7mm and it gets rid of the necessity for constant pressure to maintain a line through a turn -- unless you get on the brakes or drop the throttle and send weight forwards, in which case, it still requires constant pressure on the bars to maintain your line. Also, make sure that your preload is set correctly. I've found that ride height, either by setting the fork tubes or the preload (front & rear) has a huge effect on XB handling. Paul in MI | ||
| Gearloose |
I find it hard to drop the forks on a S model. Gearloose | ||
| Hippo888 |
Gearloose, There are retaining clips on the forks. If you try to raise the forks in the triple clamps, the top triple clamp (I think) will hit the retaining clips on the forks and stop. The retaining clips are a safety feature meant to prevent the forks from collapsing if the triple clamp bolts were to loosen. Paul in MI | ||
| Glitch |
Thanks Fly! | ||
| Gr8wheels |
MY 2 CENTS; The XB is a very different motorcycle. It is at its best in tight slow conditions,as its speed increases so does its instability.The short wheelbase and high aspect rake I believe are the culprets.For a real thrill, apply the front brake in a tight corner leaned over - you will be glad if no car/truck is coming the other way as the bike will do its best to stand up straight and throw you way off line. The short W/B also decreases the ability to correct for wheel slide on hard pavement. I bought the XB because I wanted something different and thought I'd get accustomed to its peculiar handling but I have only become disenchanted with the purchase. On the upside, the skills I developed on the Buell have made me a better rider on my other bikes. I have owned and ridden 18 different bikes in my 30 years of enjoying the sport. I have raced both dirt and road race bikes and I'm not to proud to admit when I make a mistake. The Buell was compromised from its very beginning in adapting the H/D powerplant. I think Eric Buell is a bold thinker, I would love to see what the guy could do with a 21st century powerplant. | ||
| Fed |
i think what coyote means is slight wobble at straight line speeds of 60 to 110 . i have noticed that and also slight irregular front tire wear ,. on both my S and a friend's R . i think these bikes need steering dampers if use is going to be mostly highway. } | ||
| Xb9 |
if your running the stock tires, there will be a HUGE improvement when you mount up some Pilot Sports or Metzler M1's. I know the stand-up issue disappears with the M1's. | ||
| Fullpower |
i still say my xb12s is rock steady. rode in 20 mph crosswind today, on rough pavement. the wind did not deflect the bike at all. more stable than 1999 lowrider, and the last 4 sportsters i rode on. if you dont steer it, it doesnt go there. dean | ||
| Gr8wheels |
Obviously, We all will have a bias toward a brand we own, its human nature. I believe that if you look past the bias one can easily see that all of the problems discussed here be it suspension or power have loyal owners explaining them away and recommending easy fixes-(36 psi ?)-please,that ones dangerous particularly in colder weather. I would like to see an honest discussion on the site concerning the bikes warts and see if the manufacturer has the will to address them, not from the sales or customer relation departments but truly from the engineering departments. I thing that in true Harley fashion the sales literature is a masterpiece of misdirection that only Bill Clinton could surpass. Items such as the oil in the swingarm- adding unsprung weight, not to mention the safety hazard should one of those constantly flexing lines break and dump oil in front of the rear tire-whats up with that? Then they raise the price over a grand while the increase in production costs for the cc increase amounts to -0- . The extra money you are paying is for the additional 1 year warranty not the engine. I could go on but its not my intent to run down the bike, I would only like to start an honest assessment of the problems and real approaches to fix them. | ||
| Hippo888 |
Gr8wheels, I too found the steering on the XB9S to be weird when I first rode it. Because it requires continual pressure on the bars through a turn, it made me feel very insecure about the front end. I'm used to an increase in bar pressure signaling the limits of grip on the front tire. After a lot of suspension fiddling, I discovered that raising the front end (by lowering the forks in triple clamps) adds enough rake and trail that the steering no longer requires constant pressure to hold a line. It now feels like a "normal" bike. The bike also stands up much less under braking with the increase in rake and trail. As for the oil in the swing arm, I don't see a problem with the oil lines. The use of hydraulic lines in flexible situations is quite common and easily engineered for. On your bike, the front brake line flexes as much or more than the oil lines out back (because the front suspension has more travel). Also, take a look at earth-moving/construction equipment -- tons of hydraulic lines continually in motion. As for pricing, all manufacturers will price the higher performance version at a higher price than the "normal" version even though there is no justification in terms of manufacturing cost. For example, an AMG Mercedes' increased cost over the normal Mercedes is simply not accountable in manufacturing costs (another example is the $20,000+ premium of the V-8 Cadillac CTS over the V-6). In the bike world, BMW's (now discontinued) 850cc bikes were priced 33% less than its 1100cc bikes, even though the only difference amounted to different displacement). Buell is not alone in its pricing structure. A better pan, pricewise, is the value of the XB series. An equivalently priced Japanese sportbike at either the XB9's or XB12's price points offer much more performance. Figure in depreciation that looks like falling off a cliff makes the situation even worse. I really enjoy the XB series. The handling is a bit weird, but can be greatly alleviated with suspension fiddling. Performance-wise, I prefer torque over horsepower (which is why a Mustang V-8 is a lot more fun than an Acura RSX). As far as delusional pro-Buell ownership, I find that the people on this board are fairly objective and look at their bikes honestly. Paul in MI | ||
| Coyote_xb12s |
Thanks for all the feedback. To clarify on something, I am not unhappy with my bike. But in my inability to explain what I was trying to describe, I may have given you the wrong impression. I think Fed said it better for me, there is a slight wobble at the mentioned speeds an that is what I was talking about. I sometimes notice that at higher speed turns. I think also having come from a bike that had clip on and placed more of my weight over the front end, it's taking me some time to get used to the new position I am in. So it's not so much the bike, as it is me getting used to it. I do like my S very much and enjoy riding it. I have fit a set of lower handlebars and that suits me a little better...who knows, maybe I should have gotten the R instead, but I liked the looks of the S better. Regardless, thanks for all the tips. | ||
| Blake |
It's uncharacteristically cold and wet out in Kilgore, TX today, not good riding weather, so I'm more than happy to address the so called "problems" you have identified... "..as its speed increases so does its instability." That is falacious information. The XB's are stable motorcycles. Not one of the countless press reviews of either the XB9R, XB9S, XB12R, or XB12S has mentioned anything about the bikes being unstable. In fact they comment to the contrary, about how surprisingly stable the bikes indeed are. I've ridden an XB9S and tried to induce instability at speeds up to 100 mph. It was impossible. That said, the XB's ARE motorcycles, two wheeled powered vehicles whose handling can be affected by any one of a vast number of factors. For instance, I have an oversized leather jacket that I cannot wear on my '97 Cyclone at speeds over 60 mph without it inducing a wobble. The heavy oversized jacket (tailored for someone with a huge gut and 28" biceps) starts to flop around at just the right frequency so that it actually induces minute cyclic steering inputs that cause the bike to wobble noticeably. I've seen some riders go down the road stiff armed and complain about a wobble at certain speeds. When they learn to bend their arms and relax a bit, their bike becomes perfectly calm and stable. Similarly, when aggressively negotiating turn, I had to learn to relax and breath; the typical novice racer death grip on the bars caused the bike to develop a mind of its own, made it seem hard to control. Loosen up and relax and breath, it became a whole different story; lean angles become virtually limitless. I've seen some riders who thought it wise to run their front tire at a reduced pressure thinking it would improve grip and thus their security in a panic situation. Actually it effectively reduces rake and trail and adds excessive compliance to the front suspension. Often the result of too little air pressure in the front tire is a wallowing in turns or even a wobble on straights at certain speeds. I've seen brake disk problems manifest themselves in what appeared at first to be a front end wobble. It was a brake disk problem. If the frame of a motorcycle is tweaked off of true enough, the bike can end up with handling and stability problems. Bad tires and/or poorly balanced wheels can induce a wobble or instability. And of course if the suspension or tire pressures are poorly set, the bike will exhibit all manner of ill-handling and possible instabilities. Since when is it dangerous to run 36 psi in a motorcycle tire??? It appears to me that you have not bothered to read your owner's manual. If you had, you would find that 36 psi is within the normal operational range of your tires. Have you addressed the above possibilities? As for the XB's reported tendency to stand up under braking in a turn, some bikes exhibit that tendency more than others. If a rider is ignorant enough to grab a handful of brake in the midst of an aggressive turn, he/she should be prepared for the result. A controlled application of brake in the midst of a turn on a bike that tends to stand under braking up can be EASILY counteracted by a slight countersteering input. Or are you referring to a panic stop situation? In that case, let's look at this so called "problem" (a tendency to stand up under braking) from a real world street bike safety perspective? I mean I hate to interject actual logic into such a discussion and ruin all the fun, but this is getting ridiculous. If you are in a turn and need to stop in a panic scenario on a motorcycle, what should you do? What does the MSF teach in that scenario? Do they not teach us to get the bike stood up and to clamp on the brakes in order to achieve maximum stopping performance? We are talking about riding on public roads right? Maybe you are not, I'm not sure. So if applying the brake while leaned over helps to stand the bike up, maybe that ain't such a bad deal as far as road safety is concerned? Nope, it ain't. And really, the XB9S I rode did not exhibit any more significant a tendency to stand up in a turn under braking than many other street bikes I've ridden. The tendency is neither good nor bad in my opinion; it is simply a trait of the bike and a matter of what you are used to. Get used to it, and you won't notice it any more... at least until you ride a bike that does not exhibit the same tendency. Then you will once again perceive the bike that does not behave as you are accustomed as "ill-handling". I will also say that on the track, a tendency for a bike to resist turning under braking can be useful. On the track, as I trail brake into a sharp turn, gradually letting off the front brake as I approach the apex, the bike turns in exceptionally easily. It is like letting off the brake activates the hard turn in. I'm 100% accustomed to that handling characteristic. When I ride another race bike without the same tendency, I initially, until I get used to it, have to fight to get the thing to stay on line. I think others have adequately addressed your bogus assertion that having oil lines crossing the swingarm pivot axis is a "problem", so I'll leave that one as it sits, completely refuted. The oil in the swing arm sits immediately above/around the pivot. It contributes virtually nil to the rear suspension's unsprung inertia. If it were at or near the rear axle, or distant from the swingarm pivot axis, you would have a point. But it isn't and you don't. "I thing that in true Harley fashion the sales literature is a masterpiece of misdirection that only Bill Clinton could surpass." Really? Example please. Then show me how any other moto mfg exhibits superior integrity in their marketing media. "Then they raise the price over a grand while the increase in production costs for the cc increase amounts to -0- ." How the hell do you know that? I'm doubting that you even own a Buell. The XB12's crankshaft is different, the rods and pistons are different, the headers are bigger, the muffler includes an actuated valve controlled by the ECM, the drive belt is better, the wheels are painted in show bike fashion, and most notably, the XB12's put down a bunch more power than the 9's. How naive is it to expect a significantly higher performance version of the the XB9 to be priced comparably to last year's model XB9's? If you point were valid, you could make the same exact assertions wrt just about all the Japanese repli-racer IL4's. Same bikes, larger engines, big price jump. So really, what "problems" are you talking about? Everything you mentioned is nothing more than a fabrication or derision based upon personal opinion, misconceptions, and possibly even outright falsehoods. The only true "problem" seems to be in the preconceptions of the owner. And some of the stuff you are contending is simply untrue and makes me wonder if you actually own an XB12. I could well be wrong, but you sure come off sounding more like a planted naysayer/blogger for one of Buell's competitors than an actual Buell owner. If that is not the case, then please consider my comments constructively and forgive my paranoid assertions. If however, as I suspect, you are here to deride Buell in an effort to sway potential customers towards the competition, then please leave. Besides, Buell customers are typically too intelligent to fall for such tactics. See, Buell dealerships will actually let you test ride their latest models before you decide to buy one. Blake | ||
| Bud |
My bike’s handling was already more than I am able to handle, But as a test/measure up volunteer for Hyperpro suspensions, ( they fitted progressive springs) My little R handles like a wet racers dream , little or no up righting with very late braking in to corners, very stable on bumps even short bumps ( I mean very very stable ) in low speed cornering it has a little falling in to the corner feeling, but it is not irritating with heavy breaking the front is very firm ( it doesn’t dive as match as with the oem springs ) and it’s ability to flick over from left to right is unf*&^ng believable, this even with worn out tyres ( back one is squire, front one worn out ) it even surprised the test rider from Hyperpro “it’s unbelievable even with those crappie tire’s”  there gonna fit a steering demper as well, NOT THAT THE BIKE NEEDS ONE. but it looks high-tech and people want to buy it and it takes the shake out off landing from a wheelie if you don’t have the front wheel inline it sound like I’m making an Ad here  just my 2 € cents gr, B | ||
| Prof_stack |
Blake - well said. I just returned from 100+ miles of cool(er) fun with temp's in the high 40's. Thinking of this thread, I was again impressed how stable the XB9S is at speed and with variable wind vectors coming at it. I was also reminded back home of the need to stop during a ride and get some hot food/drink on these colder days. Brrr. | ||
| Ilikehotchicks |
i noticed "in the 3 weeks i had my xb" that it was very stable with my arms loose. I had my suspension set up to my weight from what was sugested in the manual. In the morning when my body was more stiff i whould go down my street stiff armed in 2nd gear. at this speed w/ stiff arms i noticed it was unstable. As soon as i got into the fetal posistion w/ loose arms hitting bout 45 - 55 the stability is perfect. then agian i only got 3 weeks experiance and my arm is real stiff now =/ | ||
| Smitty |
Blake I think that he is trying to get a rise out of this board for whatever reason. I have ridden all kinds of bikes since the 60 s. These include bikes from around the world 2 and 4 stroke singles vertical twin’s inline fours v twins and even a rotary. I have friends who have Buells and let me ride them. I have demoed new models. In my experience instability is not even on the list of things to complain about. I have a friend with a S4 monster and I can keep pace with him on fast sweepers and back roads and my current ride is a old 1986 Yamaha 700 cc with poor shocks and dampening rod forks. We are not all like Rossi with the talent to do what he does. In the end it is the man more than the bike. | ||
| Usapitbullz |
Blake, I agree with your statements on the XB not being unstable. What did you do to try and make the motorcycle unstable at 100mph. I know if I wanted to make any motorcycle unstable it would be easy, not impossible. L8R, JM | ||
| Ilikehotchicks |
smitty, coyote is not trying to get a rise out of the board he is asking for help or sugestions. he does own a 12s i have seen the pics and the mods he has done to his bike. Its a very nice bike and looks awsome. he is asking for the best sugestion and to see if anyone else has experianced this. Some have Some havent, he is not some ricer coming on the boards to stir up trouble. | ||
| Smitty |
Ruben it was in reference to gr8wheels 2 posts sorry for the confusion. I have seen posts over the years that weren’t to inquire or inform but to irritate. I love this board it is a well of knowledge and there are people out there like a virus that want to destroy and try to ruin what they don’t have. Again my apologies. Tim. | ||
| Ilikehotchicks |
oh okay smitty, yeah i understand completely about the people out to ruin the boards. i have seen many "anti buell/american" post's in the sportbikes.com forums. coyote and i are new here and i know that i myself love these boards and the info provided. I was just trying to get his question answered. reuben | ||
| Coyote_xb12s |
ILHC- thanks for the back up! Like he said, I am new here and was looking just for guidance. I mentioned in my last post that it was probably me that needed to get used to the bike more than anything. I love my bike. I have inquired with buckingfubba in regards to the Drummer pipe as well as having major plans to add some carbon fiber to it. Unfortunately, other expenses have taken out my piggy bank I usually keep in reserve for my bike. No offense was meant and none is taken. Like hotchicks said: Buell's get enough of a bum rap on other sites. Anyway, nothin' but love here. Coyote XBA12S | ||
| Court |
The "unstable" post is rediculous. >>>What did you do to try and make the motorcycle unstable at 100mph. I know if I wanted to make any motorcycle unstable it would be easy, not impossible. Well, it's a long story but start by reading up on "postive dynamic stability" a quality that tends to return out of balance systems (airplanes, motorcycles, and submarines) to "straight and level flight through a series of decreasing oscillations". You'll learn about neat things like anhedral and dihedral. You'll come to have an appreciate for the Hawker Harrier Jump Jet that goes way beyond VTOL ability....just how does that wing system work? Just as you get good, start reading up on what motorcycle manufactures HAVE to do during testing to prove a products STABILITY. Hell, take a crack yourself. Rig your bike with a group of gryo-potential type monitors (gads R&D misses that Helmholz box and it's fortuitous mounting surface), take your bike out on the interstate (I-43 works marvelously), get it up to 60, 90 and 105 on succeccsful runs and when you reach the appointed speed kick the handles bars (or bump if you can get sufficient input) to induce a 5o deviation. Now sit in a "normal riding position" and see what happens. Either the Plymouth Valiant will retutn to it's prior relative poistion or the weeds in the ditch will get very close, very fast. I've said it many times before, Txm and Co. do things with these Buells the best of us would never approach..TO INSURE (and satisfy Uncle Sam) they are stable in the hands of marginally qualified (that would be you and I) general public sorts of riders. Court | ||
| Gr8wheels |
Blake, Thanks for proving my point about the bias thing. I'll add Buell to the list of things Texans are passionate about. Personally, I'll let the market speak for me, as my XB9 is for sale on this very site- asking 6,800. after 3 weeks of ownership. I'll take less, by the way. "To each his own" as they say. The marketing guys @ H/D deserve 1 "atta-boy" in their quest to create a mystique for Buell like the've done for Harley. You know, the eye candy stuff like those rims on your bike. It helps to draw the attention away from the lack of the bike's ability to compete in its class. Keep in mind that Harley is a very successful company on Wall street, not the race track, and they Own 98% of Buell. Harley has been able to outsell the others in their category in spite of the FACT that their bikes don't do anything as well as most of their competitors. Forgive me, but I thought an honest discussion about Buell and some reasoned input to the manufacturer might save the brand from that fate of being the brand that comes with a Halloween costume and enables the owners to get tatoos and body piercings. Over 56% of the income on Harley's statement is from the goo-gaas and T shirts, some say the only reason Harley makes the bikes is to sell the T-shirts. I like the fact that an American co. makes motorcycles. I just want to see them do it better. |
