| Author | Message | ||
     Bomber |
Chain -- well said (as if the Monte Carlo had anything to do the the "Chevies" in NASCAR anywho {grin}). rocket -- I trust you know that most (including you, I would imagine) don't fully believe anything from any particular source -- BadWeb, MCN, Cycle World, Weekly Reader, name the source . .. | ||
| Rocketman |
Patrick to say If you want to be in a never ending pissing contest, keep up on the moto-mag numbers and buy a new bike every six months suggests an element of prejudice against those that do - but I'm sure that's not what you meant but to further say Great way to impress your neighbor kids and annonymous squids at gas stations doesn't just suggest more prejudice but more a naivety towards those who would ride something that you appear to find unacceptable as a ride to your liking - but I know that's not what you meant either. Thanks for your comments though Patrick - they sum up the trap I've found myself in through Buell ownership due to my own bias and naivety. Thankfully 2003 has been somewhat of an awakening for me where motorcycles are concerned. Don't get me wrong, I'm not so much criticizing Buell bikes - more their direction as a company if I were to consider staying with the marque or buying a more recent model than my S1W, but I'd forgotten how great some highly popular bikes are and that's my fault I know but never the less my belief in things Buell helped me think that way - naive as that is. This year alone the new Z1000 blew me away and it would blow away a hell of a lot of quality performance motorcycles too. A two year old CBR 600 was so comfortable it fooled me into thinking it was not that special but once I got familiar with it - it was nothing short of awesome - and fantastic fun too. My own little RGV250 despite been a little wheezy compared to a Buell even though it's very quick for a 250 still amazes me with the technology bestowed upon it, and it's 10 years old. Like I said, I think I'm awake now. Man them squids are onto something  Rocket  | ||
| Bomber |
there's more scoots out there that would be SOOOOooo much fun to own, it's hard to go wrong, I'm thinkin (well, you could, but you'd have to try) . . . . lovin my Ma Deuece, but it'll never be my only bike (jsut the most ridden of late) | ||
| Dynarider |
The 2003 Buell production target is 12500, they "sold" (shipped) 7,364 bikes for the three quarters of this year. If you take the first quarters numbers & do the math you end up with just under 10,000 bikes for the year. Pretty close to the production numbers when they were building the tube framers along with the Blast. I fail to see this HUGE increase in sales, am I overlooking something? | ||
| Budo |
"Once the general motorcycling public realizes how good the new Buells are, and how much fun they are to ride, I think we'll see a lot more sales." Crusty man, you must be smoking some good dope or wearing rose colored glasses. How good the new Buells are? Are they four thousand dollars better than say a SV1000? Sure there will always be some guys that will buy a Buell just because the Buell is different or quirky or whatever. But most people will conclude that paying $11,000 for a Buell compared to $6,750.00 for a SV1000 (my local price) would be a mistake. And they would be correct. Most guys want to ride the bike, not work on it. Most of us require a bike to be reliable. Most guys are not mechnically inclined, so much so they might be challenged to check the oil level in their bike using the oil sight glass window. Most of these guys think 'dry sumping' is a sex act. Oh, before I get flamed, 'better' means to me, value for the dollar, quality, reliability, dealer support. Just think of everything that Buell does not have. There are simply too many good machines for alot less money for Buell to sell that many bikes. As always YMMV. | ||
| Bads1 |
Budo have you ridden a 9 or a 12?????Spent some time around one??????What big reliability problems are you talking about with the XB's.Dealer support,well I worked sales at a Honda, Kawasaki,Suzuki dealer and find people screaming about there bikes also. | ||
| Budo |
Harley has done a really fine job of marketing a lifestyle to folks who want to put on a pair of chaps and leather vest and pretend to be Sonny Barger. Not that there is anything wrong with that, it's their money and they should have a good time with it. However Buell is competing for the sport bike crowds money. This group is very focused on performance, racing, and price. In my experience the kids that buy these bikes are very image conscious in this respect. They will not tolerate being embarrassed. In my club the guys literally race from corner to corner. As you all know a 600 will hit 150mph and these guys see 120mph no problem. I holed a piston in my 1998 S1W just trying to keep a CBR600 insight. So the guy on the Buell rolls up last and his buddies smirk and say 'hey dude what kept you? how much did you pay for that pig?' These guys will not tolerate that. | ||
| Chainsaw |
Rocket: Something newer-faster-cheaper is merely moments away, regardless of the marquee on the tank. Someone will always have a faster bike. Try keeping up, and guess what, you're in a bonafide pissin' contest. The neighbor kids and squids WILL be greatly impressed by lavish spending on new toys every 6 months. I refuse to be caught in that cycle. I don't believe my view is naive, biased, or prejudiced. I'm not critiquing the KTM, Ducs or Hondas here. If you find them appealing, by all means ride one. I am happy with what I ride, regardless of the overall number of Buells sold in the world. I could give a rat's ass if Buell sells 50 of 'em or 50,000. (spoken by a man with no HD stock)  | ||
| Budo |
Yep I rode a 9. I was not impressed with the power. I suppose the 12 might be better. I had a 1998 S1W that I managed to put 31k miles on before I gave up on trying to keep it running. My local dealer (Bumpas HD Buell of Memphis Tn) blows! If I don't like my Yamaha dealer I have three other to choose from. The next nearest Buell dealer is three hours away. But my Yamaha FZ1 has 8k on it and all I have had to do is, ummm, adjust the chain. It has not seen the shop. By the time I had 8k on my Buell I knew the service guys by their first names. | ||
| Dynarider |
I've ridden the 9R & the 9S & was unimpressed with the power..or rather lack of it. The 12? Nope havent ridden one yet, but aside from the handling they are pretty close to the power delivery of the tube framers. Low 90's. Thats what a decent tuber with the race kit will put out. Of course now folks will come in & poo-poo that as being a fantasy. Ask nevco how much his X1 is putting out at the rear? 95hp & thats with nothing more than a race kit. | ||
| Bads1 |
Nope won't argue that.The 12 does good. | ||
| José_quiñones |
Interesting somebody brought up the Camry. NASCAR rules don't allow it, because it's not made in the US. Their Tundra truck is a different story:
They don't sell a truck with a pushrod V8 in it, or make a pushrod V8 to race with, as the rules require, so they will design, develop and build one, in California, home of Toyota Racing Development.  They conformed to the rules everybody else plays by.... | ||
| Rocketman |
Patrick I think you completely missed my point but Budo didn't. In fact Budo put it better than I ever have and it's that good we should all read it again. Buell is competing for the sport bike crowds money. This group is very focused on performance, racing, and price. In my experience the kids that buy these bikes are very image conscious in this respect. They will not tolerate being embarrassed. In my club the guys literally race from corner to corner. As you all know a 600 will hit 150mph and these guys see 120mph no problem. I holed a piston in my 1998 S1W just trying to keep a CBR600 insight. So the guy on the Buell rolls up last and his buddies smirk and say 'hey dude what kept you? how much did you pay for that pig?' These guys will not tolerate that. I lived through that scenario once before when I stayed faithful to a dying British bike industry whilst my mates rode off into the sun on their GT750's Z1000's GPZ1100's and CBX's. I didn't intend to buy into that again when I bought the Buell but unwittingly I did and truthfully despite all the good times I've had on my S1W I've been fucked up the arse every which way possible by this dream. Approaching 3 years total downtime in just over 5 years ownership sucks. And before anyone asks I don't have the resources to match those of us that can rebuild a Buell overnight. When my piece of shit blew up last time around I was flat broke and that's another aspect of Buell ownership - if you ride it hard it's gonna cost you money, and lots of it despite what you might believe. I believed once but end of the day Buell are sticking firmly in the little niche they've created for themselves, the style of bike, the concept of sticking with a simple air cooled pushrod V-twin, Buells take on handling characteristics of motorcycles and the unusual innovations dotted around their bikes. Nothing's changed that much in 5 years but most of all Buell have gone backward in performance when everyone else has moved along a pace. You know who they remind me of? Harley Davidson the company that prides itself in asking its customers what they'd like to see on their new models.....same old same old same......... When Ducati introduced its Monster they started something huge. It returned Ducati to profit - made them a fortune to go racing, the rest is history. Buell followed soon after with the S1. Today Ducati have a Monster with a 996 motor stuffed in it, Buell have a new lightning that cant get to 135mph.......back to what Budo said. Meanwhile the Japanese and the Italian's have not been standing still - all their major manufacturers offering very high performance STREETFIGHTER style motorcycles. Hell even the German's and the British have joined the party and the Chinese will be there soon too. Is there a country missing here? Remind me where they build Buell motorcycles? Better still someone ask the man himself what he has in store for the future.......same old same old same me thinks........? Rocket | ||
| Dynarider |
Approaching 3 years total downtime in just over 5 years ownership sucks. And before anyone asks I don't have the resources to match those of us that can rebuild a Buell overnight. I dont know anyone who can drop the coin for say a new motor when they are still making payments on the bike. I also read the stuff like "if you dont like it sell it", easier said then done. You owe twice what you could sell it for & cant afford the hit in the wallet. | ||
| Sarodude |
I'm not sure how you can substantiate that statement. Maybe when it was just the 984 bikes (and then it's arguable) but with the new 12s... They're light AND powerful. How is that backwards? This stuff is a bunch of bunk. If Buell wants to attract the 600cc SuperSport crowd maybe they DO need to build a different motor. I'd simply prefer that they attract the Buell crowd - a crowd growing and diversifying as things are moved forward. Want to race a dude on a 600RR (to the next stoplight)? Go buy a 636 Kaw. Enjoy. As one who has spent ample time racing on the track, I prefer to RIDE on the street. -Saro | ||
| Budo |
The 12 is advertised as a 101hp motor (at the crank) am I wrong? My 1998 S1W was advertised as 101hp at the crank. So where is the progress in power? Sarodude, I am talking about riding on the street. These guys race from this corner to the next. You have to have the power to keep up at least if not reel in the guy just in front of you. With my club, this is a requirement. Take note of the bikes on last SUndays ride. One 954, two R1s, two R6s, my FZ1, one gsxr600, and one gzxr750, plus a couple of cbr600s. So take the cbr600 for example. 100hp to the ground, top speed of 150 plus, light weight, cost new, I dunno say $8k. Almost forgot the CBR does not stand up in a corner under breaking. So, why would one of these guys buy a XB9 or 12? These are the 20 something crowd that I think Buell is targeting. So what does Buell have to offer for $11k that is better than or equal to any of the above bikes? Tell me. | ||
| Budo |
About reliability on the XB bikes. Give it a couple of years for this models, have a number of guys put 20~30k miles on their bikes and let's take a survey. If they have proved to be reliable, then I will gladly eat a large plate of crow and apologize to everyone here. But I am doubtfull. | ||
| Dynarider |
budo, it was just 2 short years ago that if anyone came to badweb & said the tube framed bikes were unreliable & broke then, they would have had a mob looking to lynch them. the rose colored glasses were pretty thick back then. fast forward 2 years & now folks will admit that yes the tubers did have issues, but now you have the new guys on the XB's...i dont see many old time tube frame guys buying the XB's...these new XB owners have the same rose colored glasses the old timers used to wear. Hopefully the end result will not be the same & maybe Buell does have a handle on this reliability bugaboo. the jury is out & its going to take a few years before anyone truly knows. | ||
| Court |
Budo: The surveys are being done (as for all vehicles) by independent industry firms. My bet is that the XB chassis will emerge as one of the top 3 most trouble free motorcycles ever made. Not sure how this ended up as a KTM v. Buell discussion but it sure puts me, as a fellow who had 6 Buells, a KTM 250MX and 2 Hondas in my garage at the same time, in a quandry. I'll say it again..."the last of the "bad" motorcycles disappeared when Sears quit selling the Allstate" (credits to S. Clemente) I am on the verge of buying both a Honda and a Buell. They'll both be deployed in completely different roles and the S2, which continues to serve it's role better than ANY bike, will remain. Motorcycles, at least in the United States are discretionary, recreational FUN purchases that serve, as much as we urban cowboys may hate to admit it, no useful utilitarian purpose. If you are displeased with what you bought, shake it off and find something that *IS* fun. Your clock on the mothership are ticking and you are charged equally for the days you have fun and the days you piss n' moan. Court | ||
| Cj_xb |
Your clock on the mothership are ticking and you are charged equally for the days you have fun and the days you piss n' moan. That is an accurate statement, life is short, don't waste it whining !! CJ  | ||
| Dynarider |
life is short, don't waste it whining Yea!! Spend it in a Buell dealership trying to get your bike that you owe 3 times what its worth fixed for the 5th time  | ||
| Buckinfubba |
budo its what ends up at the wheel that matters...your ol S1 didn't have bone stock dang near this close to 90hp did it. thats where the progress is. but hey the effinency of the fuel inj is so much better now, so's the chassis, so's the engine, so's the transmission. but hey who's counting really. | ||
| Budo |
My bike (1998 S1W) stock dynoed at 78hp. A pipe, carb jet and K&N filter got it up to 85hp. Motorcycle consumer news tested a 2004 XB12s and dynoed it at 85.4hp and 70.5lb.ft of torque. So, where is the dramatic increase in power? It really looks like my motor tarted up in pretty clothes. Fuel in the frame, oil in the swingarm, perimeter break. Well, that is cute and all, but I want 100hp plus to the ground and I want Japanese level reliability. Tho I have not followed it closely what I am hearing is one guys tranny seized, several bikes stopped running in the rain and a motorcycle testers bike broke a front motor mount. It's dejavu all over again. Court is right. If you don't like the bike, sell it and buy something else, which is just what I did. However I feel like I got screwed to the tune of thousands of dollars and I am not about to forget that. The other problem of course is the dealers. 99% of them are horrible. Again the 20 somethings that may be the target for the Buell are not going to be treated that way. They will simply walk out the door and buy something else for thousands of dollars less. | ||
| Court |
>>>Yea!! Spend it in a Buell dealership trying to get your bike that you owe 3 times what its worth fixed for the 5th time. Then run to the intenet and proclaim your bike, albeit one of the few to exhibit such "in backward" financial anomolies as indicative of Buell. Fact is, nearly everyone who ones a Buell just rides it, giggles, meets nice places, travels the world to repeat the process, and enjoys the entire expereience and being part of Erik Buell's American Dream that he has shared with us and allowed all of us to ride with him. Anywhere you go in this life, including family and friends, you can find something to be unhappy about. Life is choices, you can play in the gutter or on the high road. Aaron Wilson, no dummy himownself, pontificated "follow the light". Team Elves, as a group has subscribed to this and we just keep doing all those things that others have declared "impossible". The Moto Guzzi and BMW nay-sayers are no longer in site. Long before Aaron shared, the Desiderate shared.... Go placidly amid the noise and the haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant, they too have their story. Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit. Fact is, I've been shot 3 times, stabbed twice, turned a tour in the Marine Corps and linked up with all the misery I need for one lifetime. I can choose to commiserate in that mire with the folks who spend their lives in the emotional gutter or I can continiue to marvle that I, a construction worker from Topeka, KS, has seen the glory of 44 states from aboard the Buell, number people from 12 countries as my best friends, cry when people half a globe away suffer and look forward to the next time I keep an Aussie from going to jail. You make these choices; they define you as a person and the aura that surrounds you. The Buell, repleat with any shortcomings you percieve it to have, has brought things into my life (ever dug through a dumpster with a really smart Texas engineer?) that I could never have dreamt of. Lesson: pay more for the bike up front and don't get in backwards. Court | ||
| Sarodude |
Budo- Don't ride a Buell. It's that sinmple. Now...
That's about a 9% increase in PEAK power. The story un-told by the spec sheets is the breadth and usability of that power. I don't suppose the stoplight grand prix cares much about that. Anyway, I don't much care who's bike is faster than the one(s) I'd like to own & ride. I ride to enjoy. -Saro | ||
| Ray_maines |
I don't have any tatoo's and really don't expect I ever will, but if I do get one I'm going to have Courts words written upside down on my tummy so I can read them every morning in the shower: If you are displeased with what you bought, shake it off and find something that *IS* fun. Your clock on the mothership are ticking and you are charged equally for the days you have fun and the days you piss n' moan. I might change the ARE to IS, but other than that I'm all over it. In fact, I just put that in my profile under "Life History/Philosophy" Thank you Court. | ||
| Blake |
Budo, You might ask ... "Why did MCN stop their dyno run of the XB12 well short of redline, and what would have been the results had they taken the engine all the way to 7,500 rpm?" The results I've seen indicate that a stock XB12 will put down at least 90 RWHP. That's a bike that is significantly lighter than its heavier 1200cc forebears that in well tuned stock form were lucky to make 85 RWHP. You don't want tp pay $11K for a new XB12. Fine. Why do people pay so much $$ for air cooled Ducatis, BMW's, and Guzzis, non of which compare performance wise to the new XB12's and all of which are priced comparably or higher. Buell is NOT in competition for the squidly cheapo 600cc repliracer crowd, nor the el-cheapo SV1000 crowd. You'll not be hearing anyone describe an SV1000 as feeling as though it was "carved from solid billet." Please get a life. Why are you here? You too Dyna. This site is not intended to provide malcontents and incessant bellyachers an open continuous platform to, month after month, year after year badmouth Buell. Go start your own web site for that purpose if you feel inclined to make deriding Buell one of your life's primary missions as it apparently is. I'm sick of coming to a place where I would like to find friends and positive proactive discussion related to Buells and the people who enjoy them, only to find another tirade from the malcontents of the world. | ||
| Blake |
Basically... What Court said. | ||
| Blake |
JQ, Wouldn't that be great if AMAPR required all machines be American or at least had one class where that was the rule? I'd be fine if the AMAPR decided that they wanted to run a spec engine class. Instead they pretend to run a class open to all engine configurations, but they stack the rules in clear favor of only one very specific configuration. NASCAR plays no such games. It is a spec engine class for American made machines. NASCAR has integrity. The rules are clear; they are enforced evenly and fairly; safety is a primary concern. AMAPR fails on all accounts in those areas. Simply put... They suck. | ||
| Blake |
How can you conform to the rules, when the rules keep changing, and for some reason always to your detriment but to the benefit of others? How can you conform to the rules when the class in which you intend to race disappears? |
