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Boltrider
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 02:15 pm: | 
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ABLATION CASTING!!!!      |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 02:20 pm: |
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Harlan,
>>> Everyone keep referring to 42% weight reduction
The 21.1 LB wheel/brake is 42% heavier than the 14.9 LB Erik Buell Racing wheel/brake. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 02:28 pm: |
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It's not a 42% weight reduction, it's a 42% weight increase to go from what we use to what others do. So if we had come first, think how silly the proposal to put on dual discs would look? And thanks for the recognition of the scope of this.
And sorry we didn't include enough, but how much were we supposed to shove into a 30 minute show that we were told had to include history, racing, etc. etc.? And which was totally winged, no script or anything? There are thousands of parts on this bike - it would take months of shows to tell everything. So much negativity towards us all the time. Why?
BTW, it is not a ZTL system. ZTL is a trademark of Buell/H-D. This is a new system with all new Erik Buell Racing parts. The discussion on the show was not about just the disc, it was about unsprung weight of the system, the weight of wheel, disc, mounts, caliper, bolts all add up. We tried to relate technical stuff to a layperson audience who had heard from Geoff about the Erik Buell Racing race track strengths. And no kidding the brake system is truly one of the greatest strengths due to the unsprung weight advantage it brings.
Also, the cast aluminum version of this wheel is about 2.3 lbs heavier, so the total package weight loss is still huge.
Let's see, what else can we add... Oh, standard brake pads not properly selected for use on this system won't work. Sorry, it is a package, and it is DIFFERENT than other systems. So if a brand and model of pad worked great ona Suzuki, that DOES NOT mean it will work on our system. The ones we sell at Erik Buell Racing are the ONLY ones that worked in testing. We don't sell these to make a lot of money, in fact some of them we sell almost at what we pay for them because we are small and are buying with no leverage. |
Fresnobuell
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 02:28 pm: |
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The 21.1 LB wheel/brake is 42% heavier than the 14.9 LB Erik Buell Racing wheel/brake.
Well you can say it backwards to make the number fit, but the Erik Buell Racing tech said "42% lighter" and that's incorrect. Another reason why the whole comparison was a little suspect. You telling me that engineer doesn't know proper way to figure a percentage? I don't believe it. |
Jdugger
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 02:32 pm: |
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> Aluminum alloys in general and especially those used for wheels, especially forged
> aluminum alloys, but also cast aluminum alloys, are significantly stronger than
> magnesium alloys. Cast magnesium alloys are lighter than aluminum, but they are also not as strong.
Hmmm... learn something new every day. I would have sworn Mg had a higher strength to weight ratio than Al.
You sure about this one? |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 02:35 pm: |
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Harlan,
You did more than question. You implied less than honorable behavior. You were way out of line in that. There is NOTHING dubious about comparing the weights of two OEM DOT compliant front wheel/brake systems. It is a head to head product comparison. When folks compare the weight of a Corvette to another muscle/sports car, they don't care that the vet body is fiberglass. They only care about the weight and the relative effect on performance.
I do agree with you about being interested in further details like material and process, but lack of discussion thereof is in no way dubious in a product weight comparison.
The Erik Buell Racing brake system saves a LOT of weight. The magnesium saves weight, forging versus casting saves a lot of weight.
They didn't mention that the other wheel was forged and the Buell wheel was cast, which is advantageous to the other wheel. Why are you not questioning that aspect of the comparison, but hammer indignantly at the magnesium material. They pretty much cancel each other in weight advantage.
Recall Steve A's comments?
quote:And, yes, the 1190RS wheel is cast magnesium; just as the competitive wheel is almost certainly forged aluminum. With the casting technique being developed for the 1190RS wheel, it's quite possible an aluminum wheel of the same design but thinner sections could be made almost as light, certainly within 2 pounds if not less. A $1400 forged magnesium racing wheel replacing the competitive aluminum wheel might save 2.5 pounds or so, reducing the advantage of the ZTL system to 3.5 pounds -- or to put it another way -- 25 percent heavier than the 1190RS front wheel and brake system.
What Steve demonstrates is that the ZTL aspect of the wheel/brake assembly allows for the majority (better than 4 LBs) of the weight reduction.
(Message edited by blake on April 14, 2011) |
Jdugger
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 02:40 pm: |
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> Track day versus racing? I usually ran quicker laps during a track day (no getting
> stuck behind slow folks on faster bikes) and put a heck of a lot more laps in than on race day.
This is a little unusual for sure, though I don't see anything necessarily wrong with it. If your comment refers to "getting stuck" behind a slightly slower rider in a race, then it's certainly understandable.
There's really no knowing when someone will turn their best times, but my experience has been -- and certainly I've heard this across the paddock -- that times tend to improve in a race vs. track day or practice. Often by a second or two.
I know for me personally, I tend to not ride as hard during a practice session, and certainly during a track day would not attempt the hairball passes I'm more willing to consider during a 6-lap race. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 02:42 pm: |
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I am not saying it backwards, I am saying it the way we measured it. Where the hell do you think the number came from?! Do the math if you don't believe it. If he said it that way, he made a mistake speaking. He should have said a 42% weight difference. You try it on camera some day, unscripted.
But be as nasty as you want. I'm not going to make it personal in return. In fact I am done coming to this site. Being called liars does not cut it for us. And is completely undeserved as everyone on here knows. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 03:09 pm: |
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>>> Hmmm... learn something new every day. I would have sworn Mg had a higher strength to weight ratio than Al.
You sure about this one?
Strength to weight (more properly "strength to density") ratio is different than outright strength. Also, modern wheels are not made of pure aluminum or pure magnesium, neither of which are acceptable high performance structural materials.
Modern structural/mechanical components employ a combination of metals in order to achieve the most desirable structural/mechanical and even chemical (corrosion resistance for instance) properties. In the case of aluminum or magnesium alloys, those metals comprise the majority portion of their applicable alloys.
The best aluminum alloys, even cast alloys, rival the strength of mild steel. Not strength to density ratio, but outright strength. Amazing.
A357-T6 aluminum casting alloy has a yield strength of 41 KSI and a density of 0.097 LB/IN3 for a strength to density ratio of 41/.097 = 423
QE22A-T6 magnesium casting alloy has a yield strength of 23 KSI and a density of 0.0653 LB/IN3 for a strength to density ratio of 23/0.0653 = 352
The above both per DOT/FAA/AR-MMPDS-01.
The advantage of a lighter material though is also in being able to achieve thicker sections in bending with less or equal weight. All else geometrically equal, bending stress is inversely proportional to thickness squared.
A fair portion of a wheel is likely governed by bending stress and stiffness, the rim portion for example. So the magnesium alloy can be an advantage even though the strength to density is less than for the aluminum alloy. It is like the advantage of a honeycomb sandwich panel with thin facesheets and very light core versus a solid panel of the same weight. The honeycomb sandwich panel will be incredibly stronger in bending due to its greater thickness. |
Jdugger
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 03:17 pm: |
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That's pretty neat. Do you know what alloys are used in the KTM vs Buell wheels? And, what hardness they have been heat treated to?
So, other than that, anything else that was said that specifically belongs in that "stupid" bucket? |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 03:20 pm: |
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Harlan,
You are way out of line. Take a time out. I understand Anonymous' disgust 100%. You don't know when to be quite or be gracious and you often show a complete lack of respect and deference, jumping at the chance to imply dubious motive or dishonest behavior when in fact none exist.
If by your rude arrogance we've lost the support and interest of this Anonymous here, I'll have a very tough time forgiving you for your incredibly poor behavior.
You owe Anonymous an apology. |
Fresnobuell
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 03:28 pm: |
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You try it on camera some day, unscripted.
Yes, being on camera without a script could have certainly been the culprit. I am sure it was a simple mis-statement.
Keep up the good work Erik Buell Racing! |
Drawkward
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 03:33 pm: |
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Blake, I'm not going to respond to all of your maneuvering because it does no one any good at this point. You will never agree that the ZTL2 in stock form, even with some aftermarket pads (that SHOULD work) is crap on the track.
I will say this, there is more to my gripe than the money it costs. The ZTL2 brake system is not up to par against other systems in stock trim. You will not convince me otherwise because I've experienced it myself, even with stock pads. THAT'S the bigger issue here. I shouldn't have to drop almost $400 on my brake system to make it work when other riders spend $126 and are competitive.
As for the 1190RS system, I'll say it again, I'm more than impressed. I'm blown away actually. However, there's a reason why it's $40k...if they can get a streetable version of that down to $12k then I'll be really impressed. I'm NOT surprised at the weight difference, considering the price tag on the 1190RS components.
Frankly, I hope I have the money to buy it, cause I already dream about it.
BTW, what you wrote to Harlan up there just now is one of the reasons SO many people can't stand you. You're not his dad, and nothing he said was against the rules. Just so you know...
(Message edited by drawkward on April 14, 2011) |
Jdugger
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 03:35 pm: |
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Pretty neat... I never worked much with Mg in welding school. Did a boat-ton of Al, though, of course always in the T0 state as soon as you hit it with the torch.
This is kinda neat, too. It compares some Mg alloys to Al...
A touch over my head, but interesting reading...
http://books.google.com/books?id=WIGLNjp0MKMC&lpg= PA18&ots=63mpUUhp97&dq=A357-T6&pg=PA17#v=onepage&q =A357-T6&f=false |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 03:42 pm: |
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>>> That's pretty neat. Do you know what alloys are used in the KTM vs Buell wheels? And, what hardness they have been heat treated to?
No, I assumed the best available alloys in the above. Note that they are both cast alloys. Forged alloys can be even stronger, at least in aluminum.
>>> So, other than that, anything else that was said that specifically belongs in that "stupid" bucket?
Plenty I'm sure. And to be clear, your original "stupid" (I'd just call it mistaken) comment wasn't about strength to weight ratio by the way; you specifically stated that the magnesium was "stronger." That was REALLY "stupid" (mistaken).
Asserting that vacuum bleeding the brake line intrinsically removes all air from a brake system is another less than wise point. Injecting new fluid from the bottom up is the best means to ensure removal of vapor from a motorcycle front brake system that I've found. Tapping on the caliper while holding it in an optimum orientation to allow entrained air to escape upwards helps too. You can do the same via vacuum, but you must hold the caliper upside-down, kinda inconvenient/cumbersome.
Stating that because a brake pad works on other bikes with different type of brake system it ought to also work on the Buell ZTL is another.
Harlan's bizarre assertions/condemnations and nitpicking are some others.
The notion that the ZTL cannot provide instant braking power.
The notion that an ten year old conventional system is a huge leap forward in braking power compared to the Buell brake.
Those are just off the top of my head. I don't have time to review and critique the entire thread. |
Hootowl
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 03:44 pm: |
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The brakes are not making the bike 40K. I suspect it has more to do with the top shelf-designed-for-the-bike suspension components, and other low volume, or off the shelf components that Erik Buell Racing is probably paying retail for at this point. I suspect the ~$12k street bikes that are rumored to be forthcoming will have the same brakes as the RS. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 03:49 pm: |
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>>> You will never agree that the ZTL2 in stock form, even with some aftermarket pads (that SHOULD work) is crap on the track.
I think I've explained my view quite clearly, that for aggressive track use, the system requires upgrades, those available via Erik Buell Racing for instance. It really is a small matter.
The 1190RS is expensive. It's front wheel and brake system not so much, at least not once in mass production mode. Apparently you'll be able to obtain one for your 1125 if desired.
I tried to explain the error of your assumption wrt the EBC pads. Suggest you try some pads that were specifically designed for the Buell brake. Maybe see if you can get a brake caliper cooling duct? Make your own for some fun? Why not? |
Drawkward
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 04:00 pm: |
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The brake cooling duct is the first think I saw on that bike that I wanted...besides the subframe, the wheels, the front fairing, the airbox and the motor...generally everything. |
Firstbuell
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 04:22 pm: |
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Anony - please stay!!
simply ignore the a$$^%les here and do what you used to do - which was post up facts & stories with very little or no back-&-forth
the intrawebs is polluted with cranky posters - but 99.9% of us here depend on you..... |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 04:24 pm: |
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Back on topic. Incredible next evolution to motorcycle front brake/wheel, well over 6 LBs lighter than the next lightest OEM literbike class front brake/wheel assembly.
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Easylarveur
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 04:38 pm: |
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The front wheel of the Erik Buell Racing 1190 RS is really impressive.
The weight saving is really incredible.
I think there is an information I have not caught in the show. Does someone talked about the moment of inertia of the front wheel ?
Is it lower than the one of the competitor's wheel ?
Is it possible to have figures about that please ?
Thanks
Go Erik Buell Racing! |
Fresnobuell
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 04:38 pm: |
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simply ignore the a$$^%les here and do what you used to do
Funny the guys who don't own a 1125r are so critical of the guys who own and ride these bike(s) on a daily basis. I own two and JD had 3 at one point and DrAwk obvious tracks his R.
I fully intend on picking up an Erik Buell Racing bike once the price is south of $20,000...as long as it has those trick mag wheels LOL. |
Torquaholic
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 04:55 pm: |
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I'm amazed at the back-and-forth over this, especially on a Buell enthusiast forum. I didn't join the forum to become a Buell critic. I know my bike isn't perfect, but I trust the engineers know what they're doing.
I'm sorry to read the Anon poster decided to stop posting... Shame, I loved reading the posts from that person(s).
What I would really like to know is: will the 1190 wheel and brake setup be available as a retrofit to 1125 models (not can it be done, but Will it be done). If so, what kind of time frame are we looking at?
I'm at a point where I may be Upgrading my wheel bearings and maybe even buying another set of factory wheels for my 1125. I'd hate to spend the money on my existing setup (including the 5mm E.B.R. rotor and mounting kit), only to find out the 1190 kit will be in my price range and available sometime soon.
Does anyone have any input on my thoughts?
Thanks. -Kevin |
Drawkward
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 05:16 pm: |
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This:
quote:Funny the guys who don't own a 1125r are so critical of the guys who own and ride these bike(s) on a daily basis. I own two and JD had 3 at one point and DrAwk obvious tracks his R.
+1
And we're all on Buells for a reason. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 05:47 pm: |
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We're not critical of people. We're critical of inaccurate information/assumption, poor comportment, and bad behavior. |
Froggy
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 06:04 pm: |
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Mountainstorm
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 06:14 pm: |
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You know what is sad. Having to read Anon say "we are never coming to this site again" because unlike the trolls that frequent this board Anon actually is bringing something sorely lacking to the table: real facts and information.
I might be out of line here, but why let a thread run completely amok to the point where someone from Erik Buell Racing ends up so offended they leave forever? At what point does a thread get locked? Seems like that point was passed. |
Hughlysses
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 06:15 pm: |
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Wow- who'd have ever thought this thread would still be going 51 days after I started it? |
Froggy
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 06:40 pm: |
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Mountainstorm, I was catching up on the last two pages that I didn't previously get to earlier. I am not sure if I would of locked it or not, there was plenty of good discussion along with some whining. I've noticed that when threads get locked, someone gets pissed they don't have the final say and they will make a new thread and start everything over again.
For some reason the 1125 board is full of assholes who like to piss in each others Cheerios, and then they whine when they are called out on it or proven wrong. Its quite frankly irritating.
On that note, this thread is done. Locked. End of story.
Here is a TL;DR for those that don't want to read a dozen pages of banter -
- The 1190RS wheel is freaking light
- The Craftsman interview didn't give Erik Buell Racing enough time to explain everything as well as they wanted
- The RS wheel could be retrofitted to a 1125, possibility of a kit unknown yet.
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