| Author | Message | ||
     Hootowl |
"Why would a racing wheel not be street legal?" They lack DOT certification. My understanding is that race wheels are not strong enough to stand up to the punishment they must endure on the street. Tracks are smooth, streets have potholes. Race wheels are not DOT certified, or they wouldn't be "race" wheels, they'd just be wheels. | ||
| Jdugger |
> When did $185 brake pads become $400+ of upgrades? Realistically, he needs: * 5mm Finned Rotor * Nissin brake pads * Hardware kit That will get the stock ZTL2 comparable to most of the Japanese systems in terms of heat handling. I tend to agree the stock ZTL2 stuff is just basically crap for track duty if you are a fast intermediate or racer. (Message edited by jdugger on April 13, 2011) | ||
| Jdugger |
> Tracks are smooth, streets have potholes. Clearly you have never been on a track in Texas. | ||
| Hootowl |
Clearly. | ||
| Blake |
Harlan, You don't seem to get the significance of cast versus forged and machined wheels. Study up on it. By your logic, no valid comparison can be made between two different OEM products unless they are off the same material? That is bizarre. | ||
| Blake |
Jonathan (DrAwk), It's not "holier than thou" to be put off by the attitude you display, "god damned brake pads." Such flippant commentary communicates to me that you view brake pads in racing as some kind of afterthought, a triviality undeserving of attention. That's all. You seem to have missed that the cost of a set of pads for a dual disk system is in the same ballpark as the Nissin pads sold by Erik Buell Racing. Note that there are other 8-pot racing pads at Erik Buell Racing for $150. I don't know where your anger or malice is coming from. If you don't want help, fine. Have it your way. But please don't take up polluting every thread about the new 1190RS wheel/brake system with indignant complaints about how your OEM brake doesn't work well for racing. So again, You are racing. You need a brake system designed for that task. Get one. See Erik Buell Racing. Problem solved. : ) I don't know what you mean by "sticky tires". Most any race compound tire will offer plenty of grip, usually a lot more than we can use. What are you talking about? | ||
| Jdugger |
> By your logic, no valid comparison can be made between two different > OEM products unless they are off the same material? Is it not fair to suggest one would *expect* improvement when using a material that is both lighter and stronger for making the same part one is comparing? | ||
| Jdugger |
> Clearly. Wasn't meant to be as negative as it came off, but it's hard to imagine ANY race wheel not having to be as strong as a street wheel for the tracks we have here. I'd say the condition of most city streets is a real upgrade over the tracks in Texas. | ||
| Jdugger |
> So again, You are racing. You need a brake system designed for that task. No, he's not. He's an intermediate level track day rider. | ||
| Hootowl |
Oh, I didn't take it negatively. Sorry if my response indicated otherwise. You're right, I have never been on a track in Texas (though I do live in Texas, just up the road from you in fact.) In fact, I have never been on a track in my life, on a bike anyway. That's why I tend to stay out of these discussions about what works on the track and what doesn't. I have no frame of reference. I did have to comment about the 1190RS wheel though, just because I think it's neat that they developed a casting process that makes the metal have different properties at the rim than at the hub. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
By your logic, no valid comparison can be made between two different OEM products unless they are off the same material? That is bizarre. When you are putting it on a scale to compare the ZTL braking system (and not even giving the source of the the other wheel,) then hell yes the material of the wheel matters. Again, I would bet a large sum of money the bulk of the quoted 6+ pounds of weight savings was from the wheel and not the ZTL brake system. Replace the alum. wheel with a mag wheel and the difference in weight goes way down. Apples to apples. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Cost for forged aluminum is not much if any different than for cast magnesium Then they should have had two magnesium wheels, but then the weight difference wouldn't have been so impressive. Bummer. | ||
| S21125r |
I'm surprised with the "apples to oranges" banter going on here between the material types. I'm sure E-B-R's objective was to build the lightest production wheel period... and they did. What's wrong with bragging about that? I don't care how they got from point A to point C, just that the goal was reached. Doesn't matter if some of that came from material and some came from design - only the final answer counts. Other OEMs are certainly free to design their own DOT approved wheel around the cast mag process... But until they do, E-B-R will have the lightest wheel assembly. | ||
| Anonymous |
Actually there is more to the advantage because our axle is lighter, we only have mounts on one fork leg instead of both, and we didn't count the unsprung weight percentage of the brake lines and the fluid. However we didn't count these because it would have been harder to explain. Of course there is also the huge 1/8 pound weight of the scoop against us... Guys, we won by 42%. And the new rear is sweet also. You'll see... As far as brakes are concerned, what our competitors in Superbike run on the track are not stock calipers; everyone puts on the trick stuff that costs a lot more than our upgrades...check out the prices on the high end stuff that was there. Just because we used a breakthrough technology patented in the US that allow us to make a street legal magnesium wheel is cheating, I guess. Good f'ng grief. BTW, we're a lot lighter with the aluminum version too, just not quite as much. 40+%, guys - against the best engineering in the world, and we can't get respect? And if any of you think Geoff doesn't brake hard...come to the track. There is some stupid stuff being posted here. Haters flame on. | ||
| Betzy |
/\ Amen Anonymous! Bring it on and damned be the Haters! | ||
| Betzy |
For the record I am using upgraded Erik Buell Racing ZTLdisc and brake pads, track days only and the only issue I have is not throwing myself over the front wheel when grabbing the brakes with two fingers only!! Love em never need anything else, thanks for Great engineering guys!! | ||
| Court |
>>>There is some stupid stuff being posted here. So much that I don't even stick my hand in the machinery any longer. Never has the statement "tis better to be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt" been truer. Some of these assumptions are so bizarre as to border on comical . . in a game played in grams . . Buell excels by pounds and there's always a racer boy ready to throw down with an "oh yeah?". I know . . I know . . your Dad can whip Erik Buell and all his engineers . . I've heard it all before. . in 3rd grade. Enjoy . . we've got a bit of time before recess. | ||
| Ridenusa4l |
THANK YOU ANON!!! and fresno- we are talking DOT rated MAG wheels, i dont see any other companies with those so it is apples to apples in the fact the LIGHTEST competitor DOT wheel IS aluminum...apples to apples, but if you wanna compare it to oranges, pull one out your kiester and we'll weigh that in comparison to the Erik Buell Racing apples  i still dont see why there are so many doubters, this has been goin on for CENTURIES its called PRODUCT IMPROVEMENT, god forbid the US does some innovation..oh thats right we have been since we started this great country, face facts Erik Buell Racing has just waved us into a whole new level of motorcycles, the rest of the world's gonna be playing catch up...if you dont like it, go to a different manufacturer or country (or both) People need to be a bit more open minded, change isnt always bad, sometimes change provokes innovation, and that is what we are witnessing... and the best part is im only 20 and i still manage to keep an open mind better than some of the "wiser" folks here, not to toot my own horn, but maturity speaks volumes of the person, then again thats just how i was raised.... ill be waiting with a fire extinguisher, for the flames comin my way Jake | ||
| Davegess |
40%, that is a nutty number!!! Even if they had a thumb on the scale, and I know they didn't, it is stupid good. This brake system is just freakishly good in it present form. | ||
| Jdugger |
>>>There is some stupid stuff being posted here. Court, I'd be curious as to some specific examples since you seem to be rather confident in this statement. I'm just curious exactly *what* is stupid and what isn't. (Message edited by jdugger on April 13, 2011) | ||
| Drawkward |
JD, thanks for the clarification to Blake. I am NOT racing this bike, merely doing trackdays and I'm finding the brake system to be sub par...and somehow that makes me a hater? From what I read on this site before I bought my 1125R, the ZTL2 should be able to stop an elephant...and it obviously can't in this set up. Of course the guys Geoff are racing against aren't using stock stuff, but the guys I'm riding track with ARE, and they're turning out VERY good times at tracks like MSRH, TWS, ECR and MSRC. On EBC Extremes and similar compounds. Perhaps I need to get my ECM reflashed to add in some engine braking as the Erik Buell Racing race one has almost none. That way I can rely on the engine doing some of the work the brakes aren't doing. THAT's a thought worth looking into, especially since it reportedly only costs $25? Blake, again you're wrong to assume I view brake pads as an afterthought. Keep on saying that and maybe someone will believe you. What I'm saying, yet again, is that these same brake pads on a GSXR or R1 or any of the other bikes are performing wonderfully. The EBC Extremes for the GSXR are $126 on ebay, shipped. Regardless of price, you're still missing my point...they should work on the 1125R with no problem...and they don't because the stock system isn't performing the way it should IMO. I wouldn't have been saying this a year ago when I first started out on the track. But after my 7th day in less months, I started to notice the front brake system wasn't all it is cracked up to be. The sticky tires I'm talking about are Rosso Corsas, not even DOT race. I've tried Q2's which are only $199 for a set at some places and they're not my cup of tea...they're not sticky enough for me (move around a lot with all this torque). The only track/street tire I've been able to use well is the expensive RC at over $300 a set. When is the last time you've been on the track? New dot race Dunlop NTECs are something like $498 a set with racer discount...that's neither chump change nor affordable. That's what I'm talking about. I'd rather have confidence in upping my corner speed than confidence in braking when I can just adjust my markers. How does that convey that I think brakes are an afterthought? Because of money, I'm picking tires over brakes. What's next? $600 ohlins rear spring and $1500 cartridges for the forks because I can't get the suspension dialed in, or should I adjust my riding to it? You seem to think I don't like Buell or something...and that's wrong. I love this bike and my M2 and consider Erik a hometown hero (I'm from Pittsburgh too). But I'm not happy with this braking system...somehow that makes me and anyone else for that matter, a bad guy who doesn't know shit. You make this place like a GSXR forum. That's what frustrates me...not angers. What is also incredible to me is that some constructive criticism/doubt or good conversation about the new system and its merits has turned into a "you hate Buell, you hater" type of conversation. That's so damn childish. Ridenusa is a prime example of this...it's pathetic. Some of you can't "open your minds" enough to understand that in the real world, people have questions and doubts about these new innovations...and would also like nothing more for them to succeed. Not everyone has drank the koolaid like some of you have...I don't have a white cane just yet... Now do your best Blake, pick out one small sentence in there and run with it and call me a hater.... (Message edited by drawkward on April 14, 2011) | ||
| Drawkward |
99BuellX1: The EBC Extremes are $86 and the Motul RBF600 is $15. I'm not sure why "fix" is in quotes, but I have 3 days on the Extremes and every day I wasn't happy with them. Before changing pads the rotor was cleaned properly and honed just a tiny bit as it didn't need much. The Erik Buell Racing pads are $100 more...so no, wouldn't have been cheaper. My lines are vacuum bled and I'm very confident in that. The fluid is top notch...blah blah blah. What has been noted by other members here is that at a minimum, the rotor and hardware need replaced. That's $200 plus the $185 pads, just to get to a base "track oriented" set up. A set of Extremes and a new MC would be $85 plus $250 for a used Brembo (if I was lucky). The price is similar but less. Regardless of that, a Brembo would help the EBC pad, that's been proven as far as I'm concerned...but probably not enough compared to all new braking components (rotor, hardware and Erik Buell Racing pads). My best bet would be rotor, hardwar and EBC's to save $100...but who knows if it would work... I don't know if you're a pussy on the brakes, so I can't comment on that. As JD has mentioned, these rotors like to turn colors, maybe that can help you gauge it... | ||
| Dannybuell |
Drawkward - A radial master seems like it might just wake up any hydraulic brake system. | ||
| Blake |
Jdugger asked, "I'd be curious as to some specific examples since you seem to be rather confident in this statement. I'm just curious exactly *what* is stupid and what isn't." The following for one:
Aluminum alloys in general and especially those used for wheels, especially forged aluminum alloys, but also cast aluminum alloys, are significantly stronger than magnesium alloys. Cast magnesium alloys are lighter than aluminum, but they are also not as strong. Track day versus racing? I usually ran quicker laps during a track day (no getting stuck behind slow folks on faster bikes) and put a heck of a lot more laps in than on race day. You naysayers are so stunned by the truth that you are left grasping at straws. I agree with anonymous; it is incredibly stupid; really lame, and bewilderingly disrespectful. Show some respect where it is due. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Just because we used a breakthrough technology patented in the US that allow us to make a street legal magnesium wheel is cheating, First off, I was not aware of this fact. Secondly, I do not remember anyone from Erik Buell Racing making any kind of comment about this breakthru on the show. This is a big deal, why was it not mentioned either by the main Erik Buell Racing tech or the CAD guy who actually pulled up the front wheel on his computer? They talked quite a bit about the wheels specifically, but no mention of the breakthru process and being the only production mag wheel. Why? If true, that does make a difference indeed in what was being compared on the scales. However, the unsprung weight focus on the show revolved around the ZTL braking system versus a dual disc setup. An explanation of the new Erik Buell Racing mag wheel would have been nice and clarified exactly what was being compared. PS--Everyone keep referring to 42% weight reduction, however versus a 21.1 pound wheel/brake combo a 6.24 pound reduction is actually around a 29.6% reduction. And I whole heartedly agree that in a world where weight savings of ounces is worshiped, when you start talking about weight savings in pounds it is quite amazing. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
You seem to think I don't like Buell or something...and that's wrong.. Exactly. You naysayers are so stunned by the truth that you are left grasping at straws. Naysayer now? You are funny. I just question questionable comparisons like the wheel/brake comparison. Also, like the Twin Motorcycle 152 HP dyno run thread. If I am out of line for not knowing about this game changing new Erik Buell Racing process of making mag wheels--even when NOTHING about said mag casting process is mentioned during the hour long Craftsman show--then shoot me. I still find it very strange nothing it wasn't mentioned at all on the show about the mag wheels. | ||
| Drawkward |
Blake:
You are literally the first person I've ever heard say that. And I don't know about you, but being passed by a faster guy (in a race or TD) always makes my lap times faster...seems that that would be happening more in a race. But what do I know... (Message edited by drawkward on April 14, 2011) | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Track day versus racing? I usually ran quicker laps during a track day It's hard to get one clean lap during a track day unlss you are the slow guy in the class and I am assuming that is not the case, so quite an interesting statement. | ||
| Blake |
Drawk, >>> I am NOT racing this bike, merely doing trackdays As far as the brakes are concerned, what is the difference, other than putting a lot more laps in during a track day I mean? >>> Of course the guys Geoff are racing against aren't using stock stuff, but the guys I'm riding track with ARE, and they're turning out VERY good times at tracks like MSRH, TWS, ECR and MSRC. On EBC Extremes and similar compounds. Again, EBC may not have done a good job designing their pads for the Buell brake. It wouldn't be the first time. The brake is different and demands more than a cookie cutter approach to brake pad design. There is a lot more to brake pad design than the pad material. Backing plate material, thickenss, form, and even the adhesive. >>> What I'm saying, yet again, is that these same brake pads on a GSXR or R1 or any of the other bikes are performing wonderfully. They are not the same pads. They are the same brand and class of pads. The Buell brake is not the same as a conventional brake. EBC may not have taken that into account when releasing that class of pad for the 1125. It's happened before. The pads are not up to par for the intended job. Suggest you get the Erik Buell Racing recommended pads; they offer two, one set is $150, to Nissens are $185. >>> The EBC Extremes for the GSXR are $126 on ebay, shipped. Not such a big disparity then is it? So may we cross that off the list of your gripes versus the conventional systems which you seem to think so highly of? >>> Regardless of price, you're still missing my point...they should work on the 1125R with no problem...and they don't because the stock system isn't performing the way it should IMO. "IMO"? Yes, you've made that clear. Your opinion is however dead wrong. If other manufacturers are able to provide pads that work fine, then how can it possibly be the fault of the brake system that the EBC pads fail to measure up? Seems to me that is clear incontrovertible evidence that the fault is in the design of the pads, not the brake system. If EBC chose to configure their Extreme Pro pads all alike and just alter the shape to fit the various caliper geometries, when it comes to the Buell brake, that is a huge problem. Apparently that cookie cutter approach works okay among all the conventional dual disk/caliper systems as their design requirements share much in common. Not so with the Buell brake system. So a conventional brake system cookie cutter approach to a Buell brake pad design would be a very bad assumption on the part of EBC. Fail. I used to pay over $300 for a set of DOT race tires. I mostly ran Michelin, but really liked the Metzelers/Pirellis. The Dunlops were always WAY more expensive, so I never tried them. I don't know what else to tell you Jonathan. If the brake pads you are using aren't working for you on the track, then get different ones that do. If you need to add a brake adjuster to account for fade, then do that. If you don't want to spend more than $70 for a set of racing pads, well, don't even thing about swapping to a conventional braking system. The price seemed to be one of your primary gripes. You don't want to have to upgrade your brake components for track duty and you come across as indignant and outraged ("god damn brake pads") you will need to do so in order to run the 1125 on the track at speed. I just don't know what to say. You may come across as a naysayer to some, because your demands are unreasonable and selfish. The solution is bewilderingly simple but it will cost a little. Oh the outrage! This thread by the way was about the new brake rotor on the Erik Buell Racing 1190RS. Yet once again the indignant naysayers have turned it into crap whining and badmouthing the prior Buell ZTL system. Are you really unable to see how out of line and irritating that may be to some of us? The new brake is a huge jump in performance capability compared to the one you have. Celebrate the achievement? Why not?  | ||
| Boltrider |
Ablation casting! |
