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Guy_glover
| | Posted on Friday, April 01, 2011 - 06:19 pm: | 
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I believe the Buell is SMOKE a member on this board.It's his first year running PRO. He was Champion in his class last year [pretty sure it was his first year racing] He doesn't run a stock pipe. |
Lastonetherebuys
| | Posted on Saturday, April 02, 2011 - 04:26 pm: |
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There are cars out there that while we eat them off the line they do have scary roll on power once in the 3 digit range.
Last fall I was out riding and rolled up on a 2009 Infiniti G37 coupe. when we were side by side we were @ about 85 kmh. When we rolled on it that car kept pace with me until I was @ about 220 kmh not to sure if thats where he ran out of speed or if thats where he backed off. |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, April 02, 2011 - 11:59 pm: |
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>>> I'd love to think the $6,000 1125r with a pipe and tune could out-run an 1198.
... unfortunately, it just doesn't happen.
Actually, it does and has. Ask Shawn Higbee. That said, we now have the Ducati destroying 1190 to look forward too. See the Buell 1190 race videos from Pegasus Race Team on youtube. Astounding how brutally fast that bike is. The antagonism is perplexing. |
Jdugger
| | Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2011 - 12:05 am: |
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Fanboi Unite! |
Court
| | Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2011 - 07:32 am: |
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>>>The antagonism is perplexing.
And entertaining.
In each and every meeting the 1125 has eaten the Ducati for lunch.
Fun one was when the Ducati set the record lap at Willow and Higbee went and shattered it by a couple seconds on an 1125R.
Fact boy
The 1190RS should be fun to watch. Interesting meeting last week and enthusiasm, among what could only be termed fellow fan boys and girls, is fever pitched.
There has never been a time in the history of Buell when more exciting things were happening at one time. |
Jdugger
| | Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2011 - 07:57 am: |
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I wasn't being antagonistic, just realistic.
You guys forget I race the Buell 1125r by choice and with great personal pleasure. It's easily my favorite bike I've ever owned, and I have no plans to leave the platform.
But, it's no big surprise to me that a 1200cc Ducati puts down more power than an 1125cc Buell, in particular in stock trim. There's a legitimate reason the 1198 races in Superbike-A and the 1125r is allowed in Superbike-B with the 750cc machines.
I've been head's up against quite a few 1198s down the stretch, and they do have an advantage. I'm talking just power/acceleration here.
What you are citing with Shawn is all rider. Anyone taking bets on what would happen if you put Shawn (or Harald) on the Duc and the other rider on the Buell? Shawn is an amazing rider and he's going to be fast on anything.
I understand you two are big fans... that's great, so am I. But try having a touch of reality here. It's not like the Buell is the only decent motorcycle ever made. There are lots of great bikes out there, and at OUR LEVEL, all that matters is rider, anyway. I still have my left nut from our last debate, and I'm not too worried suggesting lefty is safe with me on a blast and you on anything you want. Does that make the blast better than what you bring?
What y'all are doing is some kind of masturbatory bench racing instead of getting machines, getting to the track, and learning for yourself.
For the record, the Buell does NOT have the lap record at Willow or anything close to that. It has the Heavyweight Twins *class* record (which does mean that a Ducati does not). The current outright record is on a BMW set by Toye.
Didn't we go through this?
Oh, yea, we did: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/617770.html?1298417452 |
Pmjolly
| | Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2011 - 12:41 pm: |
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Jim, will you ride that Blast one handed while scraping a knee with one hand behind your back and turned around watching the rider behind you?  |
D_adams
| | Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2011 - 12:46 pm: |
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Video or it didn't happen! |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2011 - 12:58 pm: |
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>>> I wasn't being antagonistic, just realistic.
It appears that you went out of your way to try to belittle. The fire sale price is irrelevant to the discussion of performance. The 1125R was not a $6000 motorcycle. While Buell was intact, it listed for over $10K, still well below the list price of an 1198 to be sure.
>>> It's not like the Buell is the only decent motorcycle ever made.
It's not like anyone is arguing that point and it's bizarre to pretend otherwise.
>>> For the record, the Buell does NOT have the lap record at Willow or anything close to that.
Nothing close? Please post the HW Twin lap record versus the outright motorcycle lap record. I'd really like to compare the two.
>>> I still have my left nut from our last debate
You've yet to show that your contention is accurate or even test it.
>>> I'm not too worried suggesting lefty is safe with me on a blast and you on anything you want. Does that make the Blast better than what you bring?
No, it makes you short a testicle. |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2011 - 01:26 pm: |
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Jeremy Toye on BMW R1000RR: 1:13.516
Shawn Higbee on Buell 1125R: 1:14.072
Difference: 0:0.588 seconds.
Obviously there is a lot more to outrunning another bike than peak HP. |
Bertman
| | Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2011 - 01:42 pm: |
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Shawn's BOTT lap record back in March 2010 of 121.622 was done on this V-twin. His regular race bike at the time was a Yamaha 600. He did not bring the Buell back out until later in the year. I helped him in the pits when he won the F1 race on the 1125R on the Streets of Willow track.
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Kenm123t
| | Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2011 - 06:47 pm: |
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Since we rode horses people have talked smack! Lets get to the track and have at it WOOT! |
Jdugger
| | Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2011 - 07:12 pm: |
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> It appears that you went out of your way to try to belittle.
> The fire sale price is irrelevant to the discussion of performance.
> The 1125R was not a $6000 motorcycle.
Why do you make this assumption? Why have you (before this thread) called me a toll, suggested I'm here to belittle Buell, suggested I'm antagonistic?
I say the fire sale price is quite relevant, because many of us were able to get 1st, 2nd and even 3rd 1125r machines for the $6k price quoted.
Why are you so negative with regards to this? From my perspective, I bought an 1125r machine for ONE THIRD the comparable machines we are talking about in this thread. From a value standpoint, the Buell 1125r is absolutely unmatched.
For the club racer or track day junkie, the reality is you tear up machines and parts on a pretty regular basis. I've managed to destroy two motors and who knows how many rotors and other wear parts. So, the current situation with the 1125r with good access to affordable parts and a lot of machines selling at a discount relative to other hardware is a very good thing.
Really, only the 2008 model CBR1000RR provides the same level or performance for the dollar, mostly also because of a close out on them, and that thing is notorious for motor problems.
That was really the source of my comment, not an intention to bash or troll.
More over, why do you care? You don't even have a dog in this hunt. You don't own an 1125r, don't race, don't even do track days or try to pass those crazy Ducati.
> Nothing close? Please post the HW Twin lap record
> versus the outright motorcycle lap record.
You did. The different is more than half a second. What you aren't willing to admit is that's a LIFETIME in this sport.
To put it in perspective, in the 15-lap superbike race at Daytona, there was a .209 total difference between first and third place, inclusive. That's just slightly more that's 1.3 HUNDREDTHS of a second per lap. Using your standard of half a second per lap after fifteen laps we would be 7 seconds down. (And, in your example, it's actually closer to 6 tenths). Well, 7 seconds down in that superbike race would be good enough for.... wait for it... 5th place, and more than a whole corner behind. Not even close.
http://www.amaproracing.com/rr/events/results.cfm? year=2011&eid=2011011105&discipline=RR&class=SB&ty pe=F&rnum=2&class_sort=all
> You've yet to show that your contention is accurate or even test it.
The other guy posted the weights. It's no where near a 5lb difference. And, the rear wheel of an 08' CBR1000 is lighter. I just changed the tires on one. You are just DEAD WRONG on this one. In 2002, you were absolutely right about the front, but the Japanese put a shit-ton of money into their casting process meanwhile and got wheel weights down. Comparing 2010 to 2010 models, the Buell wheel is no longer lighter. Even Steve Anderson mentioned this.
> No, it makes you short a testicle.
So, are you saying you'd like to race?  I love a race. And, I don't mind being a huge underdog: lord knows all I do is fight for dead last in the CMRA.
c'mon... c'mon... could be fun. Might win yourself some big pride showing me how it really is. |
Jdugger
| | Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2011 - 07:15 pm: |
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> Jim, will you ride that Blast one handed while scraping a knee with one hand
> behind your back and turned around watching the rider behind you?
Only after lapping Blake 
> Video or it didn't happen!
To be fair, I'm almost 100% sure it didn't. I sometimes coach for the ECR public trackdays, and I absolutely do go through corners one handed while looking backwards to see the rider's line, but I can't imagine I'm going fast enough to drag while doing it.
BTW: ECR public trackday Sunday April 10. Come on out and ride! I'll ride with any Bueller! |
Jdugger
| | Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2011 - 08:39 pm: |
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> I call a $6,000 EXPENSIVE
Yea, but the machines we are comparing it to are $18k-ish and more.
I think it's an important factor -- the 1125r is a good value for the club racer or track day junkie. There's no other V-Twin remotely close in terms of performance/$. |
Jdugger
| | Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2011 - 08:40 pm: |
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Oh, Court deleted his post... never mind. |
Kenm123t
| | Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2011 - 09:35 pm: |
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If you have the right attitude racing helps you improve your equipment and even more important yourself! |
Dannybuell
| | Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2011 - 10:10 pm: |
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didn't the Latus HD sponsored ducati 848 win at daytona 200 this year? |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2011 - 11:50 pm: |
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>>> You did. The different is more than half a second. What you aren't willing to admit is that's a LIFETIME in this sport.
Hardly. Especially not when you are comparing the 1125R lap time to the BMW R1000RR, a bike with forty more HP on tap, not to mention a full suite of traction and wheelie controls. What is the best Ducati lap time there please?
What you can't seem to admit is that the 1125 in competent hands has outrun plenty of Ducatis and been close to matching even the BMW R1000RR on a track that rewards handling and drive out of the turns more than peak speed.
By the way, I've been noticing a lot of photos of bikes in RRW where the brake disks are discolored blue. Those would be conventional dual disk setups. |
Kinder
| | Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2011 - 11:58 pm: |
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Yes the 1190 is pretty, it's fast and hopefully soon will be eating 1198 ducks for lunch.
It's also rare, and expensive (like 1098R) just like those ducks. |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, April 04, 2011 - 12:12 am: |
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>>> Comparing 2010 to 2010 models, the Buell wheel is no longer lighter. Even Steve Anderson mentioned this.
I don't think so. Besides, the point of challenge was not about the 1125R. You wagered your left testicle on the Erik Buell Racing 1190RS front wheel assy not being better than 6 lbs lighter versus that of a stock 2010 CBR1000RR.
quote:I'd put my left nut on the 1190rs not having a 6-lb system advantage (wheel, rotors, calipers, fluid) over something like the CBR1000.
source
Did you hit your head in your last get-off too?
Did you also forget that I used to race, or are you just really eager to part with your left testicle?
If the latter, do you prefer the rubber band or the knife method? |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, April 04, 2011 - 12:15 am: |
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I think you may have also mis-characterized what Steve said concerning the issue of wheel weight. |
Jdugger
| | Posted on Monday, April 04, 2011 - 07:25 am: |
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1. A half second at lap record speeds is very substantial. VERY substantial.
2. I don't have a problem admitting the 1125r is a great bike. I have owned THREE of them, all purchased new. I like them a lot.
3. Yes, brakes get hot. Buell's brakes get hotter for the same momentum reduction.
4. So, we are over any argument you have about the 1125r having an unsprung weight advantage (which you have touted plenty, perhaps I can go find those threads) an on to the 1190? Fine by me... nether of us can test it until one of us owns that $40,000 bike.
5. I'm not worried about lefty. You are too much of a talker to put up and come out anyway.
6. Steve more or less said the 1125r has an advantage back in 2002, and doesn't now. That's more or less what I said, too.
7. You are the most incredible fanboi I've ever seen. Give it up man, the Buell didn't hang the moon. It just turns out to be a reasonably competitive bike that's a ton of fun to ride and was cheap compared to the competition. It's got advantages and disadvantages. Works for me. |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, April 04, 2011 - 02:32 pm: |
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>>> 1. A half second at lap record speeds is very substantial. VERY substantial.
If it were a Ducati time differential it would be. Not so much when comparing the 1125R to a BMW R1000RR, a bike with forty more HP on tap and traction control, which by expert accounts is worth as much as a half second a lap.
Again, what is the best Ducati lap time at the Streets of Willow? I'm guessing at least a half second or more slower than Shawn's time on the Buell 1125R, but I don't know.
Interestingly you choose to reference entire race distance to support your contention trying to belittle the performance of the 1125R versus the BMW R1000RR. The interesting thing is that both of those times, Shawn's and Jeremy Toye's were set in the same Forumula 1 race. After twelve laps, Jeremy on the new BMW Superbike finished ahead of Shawn on the Buell Daytona Sportbike spec 1125R by a few seconds.
>>> Steve more or less said the 1125r [sic] (ZTL) has (sic) an advantage back in 2002, and doesn't now.
What Steve actually stated:
quote:To sum up: the Japanese and Italian companies began to whittle away the Buell front wheel weight advantage, largely by optimizing individual parts beyond what Buell had done, and by using more expensive manufacturing processes. The 1190RS represents Erik Buell Racing re-establishing the weight gap by doing the same. The ZTL design, whatever it's eventually branded, has an inherent weight advantage over conventional dual disk designs.
Truth matters. For some reason it irritates you to the point of eliciting insult. Personally disparaging those with whom you disagree rather than sticking to the topic of debate, calling anyone who presents Buell in a positive light concerning other brands of motorcycles a "fanboi", a term with which you are apparently greatly enamored, is a bizarre attitude on a Buell enthusiasts' forum.
If those who present factual information that tends to show Buell motorcycles in a favorable light are "fanbois", what do you call those who are unable to admit when they are wrong?
This is number three for you. Seems like a major character flaw.
You previously harped and harped on the fact that your 1125R's front brake disk had discolored blue as evidence that the Buell ZTL brake had a "huge heat problem". LOOK! My brake disk is blue! It must be about to melt! The Buell brake has a "huge heat problem"! Well, now it turns out that a lot of racing motorcycles end up with discolored front brake disks. According to your logic they must also suffer from a "huge heat problem." Backpedal, backpedal, backpedal.
All racing machines when pushed hard on high speed venues with severe braking zones will test the limits of their brakes. As Steve Anderson mentioned, even the factory Honda Superbike suffered brake failure on track.
>>> Buell didn't hang the moon.
Who is arguing that Buell hung the moon? What a bizarre statement. Exaggeration is the next closest thing to falsehood. Try sticking to debating that which has actually been stated rather than repeatedly making up straw men for yourself to defeat. It's a silly tactic, and no one is fooled by it.
To help you out on that tack, what Buell did was innovate an effective new brake technology that allows a significant reduction to front wheel/brake assembly unsprung mass.
What Erik Buell Racing has done most recently is to start production of a new limited edition racing-oriented superbike-class machine that offers amazing performance while introducing the next evolution of an incredibly light front wheel/brake assembly.
For some reason, those simple facts really irritate some people. I don't get it.
>>> So, we are over any argument you have about the 1125r having an unsprung weight advantage (which you have touted plenty, perhaps I can go find those threads) an on to the 1190? Fine by me... nether of us can test it until one of us owns that $40,000 bike.
Your own wager concerned the 1190 not the 1125. Try to focus.
The ZTL-2 still appears to enjoy an unsprung mass advantage versus the competition, just not as much as it did when originally introduced nine years ago.
I'll take you up on your exceptionally kind offer one of these days; count on it! Right now, the Cyclone is in need of some routine maintenance and my schedule is booked solid.
Besides, I don't want any gimp excuses. Heal up, then prepare for humiliating defeat. Where do you get a Blast racing bike? |
Jdugger
| | Posted on Monday, April 04, 2011 - 02:48 pm: |
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Come on out Blake. Track day this weekend. I won't make Gimp excuses, I'll just show you around the track. I've had two good track days since the surgery now, I think I can manage.
Better yet, there's a member day this Thursday. Why don't you come out, and since I don't own a blast or have access to one, I'll ride a 550cc Aprilia Motard I have in the garage. Top speed is about 100 MPH, should give you a very nice advantage down that back straight that's a half-mile long since you can bring anything you want.
Or, let's go even up and I'll get on my 1125r.
Meanwhile, apparently I need to drink some more Kool-Aid.
I'll just laugh at your comments around misdirection, focus of argument, personal attacks and so on. Your note above shows you are indeed the master of such techniques.
Call it backpedaling or what ever you want, but I think you are too much of a pussy to show up. You've been given every reasonable opportunity to get some first hand experience and you passed it up. |
Court
| | Posted on Monday, April 04, 2011 - 03:40 pm: |
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Am I hearing this correct? . . . are the brakes on the 2002 1125R being compared to those on the Erik Buell Racing 1190RS?
That'd be quite odd I think. |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, April 04, 2011 - 04:12 pm: |
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I'm still trying to figure out how you and me doing some laps at a track day versus JD on a Blast relates to any of the points raised in the discussion.
Can you come to Dallas for a quick race? Could be fun. Not clear on whether JD prefers a blade or the rubber band method of testicular removal. I have some friends who ranch and they've offered to do the deed either way. |
Jdugger
| | Posted on Monday, April 04, 2011 - 04:32 pm: |
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It's OK Blake. I know you are scared.
C'Mon out.
What if... get this... I offer you my race-prepped 1125r stock bike with Pirelli slicks, race brake pads, rotor upgrades, Buell Race Suspension and so on...
... and I get on the Motard? 550cc "dirtbike with street wheels", crap gearing for a long track like ECR, and a top speed fully 35 MPH slower (and that takes FOREVER to get there) than my 1125r stock prepped race bike.
The original point was you suggested Buells were outright better than Ducati, or at least on parity, because Shawn could beat all the Ducatis that showed up at Streets of Willow. You have made roughly the same argument regarding Harald over there in Europe on the 1190. (And, wow, he really did kick some ass!)
So, I suggested I get on a blast, you on a whatever, and we go at it to "prove" the Blast was better than whatever you brought.
It's a completely ridiculous premise!
But, I figure we can roughly accomplish the same thing if you come out and ride my 1125r -- just don't crash it because I gotta race it in late April and I blew the motor up in my race bike -- and I'll get on my Motard with about half the horsepower and no wind protection.
We can show that Motards are better than the 1125r that way.
Right?
I've got your track day covered, your bike covered, and hopefully your last excuse. Let's see what you got. You were a racer, right? This could be lots of fun. And, Thursday, the weather looks perfect and we will likely have the track to ourselves. You can have all day to practice, and then we can go at it late in the afternoon.
It's even the track CLOSEST TO YOUR HOUSE now that Oak Hill is history. |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, April 04, 2011 - 06:33 pm: |
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>>> The original point was you suggested Buells were outright better than Ducati, or at least on parity, because Shawn could beat all the Ducatis that showed up at Streets of Willow.
Uhm, no. My point was pretty simple. You stated in no uncertain terms that...
quote:I'd love to think the $6,000 1125r with a pipe and tune could out-run an 1198.
... unfortunately, it just doesn't happen.
My point was that contrary to your claim, that very scenario does indeed happen.
I have family from PA visiting starting Wednesday. That must take precedence over a day at the track, even as incredibly tempting as that may be.
I wouldn't ride your bike; I cannot guarantee I won't lay it down. I like to push the envelope too much. Once a racer, always a racer. |
Jdugger
| | Posted on Monday, April 04, 2011 - 06:40 pm: |
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Fair enough.
My comment, taken in context, was about the power output of the Ducati. Wouldn't we use a drag race (or just a Dyno run?), and not a road race to determine that? I'm well aware that Shawn can outrun another rider on just about anything at Streets. That dood is incredibly fast.
I really don't have an issue with you riding my bike. Odds are if you throw it down the track you are out a pod, clip-on, and a couple of inconsequential parts. These things crash pretty dang well, actually probably better than any bike I've ever seen.
So, since you are busy, please pick a couple of dates and I'll arrange a nice set up for us. Who cares what we determine at this point, I just want to race. You aren't backing out, are you? (|)
When I do track days I bring the grill, a couple of buds, and make a good time of it. One of my pals has this amazing cordless margarita machine for after the day is up. I see no reason not to enjoy the day, win, lose or draw, any other way.
We live well. You should try it. |
Pmjolly
| | Posted on Monday, April 04, 2011 - 08:41 pm: |
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I wanna come! Jim, if you're offering free rides on your race bike, I might actually come out on the track for the first time. I can't guarantee I won't break it, though. I wanna chase you on that Motard! It sounds like a blast! I know you are a better rider than I am. I will most likely try to hang with you until I go flying off the track and ball up your bike. Sounds like fun!!!!! In all seriousness, if you two get together on this, I want to watch!
Pat |
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