| Author | Message | ||
     Gregtonn |
Some things are so predictable. Right down to the removal of posts. "Try sticking to the issue." Yes Blake, why don't you try that instead of hijacking the thread to further your personal crusade. D'OH! Next comes a threat to boot me. G | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
Blake "Owens, >>> Truthfully if anyone has lost it is you, Blake. Cause youre on a 'stop people from making a dime off of the IOM' and that aint happening. Start another topic if you wish to discus me personally. I'm not interested in the gossip and ad hominem. " The heck are you talking about? Im discussing you personally? All I did was make the same statement that you made to another member about 'i win, you lose' Heck, I didnt even say the 'i win' part Jesus Christ......... | ||
| Gregtonn |
"Actual instances of argumentum ad hominem are relatively rare. Ironically, the fallacy is most often committed by those who accuse their opponents of ad hominem, since they try to dismiss the opposition not by engaging with their arguments, but by claiming that they resort to personal attacks. Those who are quick to squeal "ad hominem" are often guilty of several other logical fallacies, including one of the worst of all: the fallacious belief that introducing an impressive-sounding Latin term somehow gives one the decisive edge in an argument." Sound like anybody we know? G | ||
| Gregtonn |
In case you have forgotten this was the original post. There was only one reply before it was hijacked: "There's an article in RRW talking about the Isle of Mann organizers wanting to make an international series http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?artic le=43693 Probably a pipe dream there could be one here in the US, but just for fun, what do you think the best place in the US would be for a race like that? Or in any country for that matter." I was at Old Highway 40 Motorcycle Days at Donner Ski Ranch. Its more of a timed hill climb on public roads (closed) but the concept is similar. Then there is the Silver State Classic in Nevada. I happened upon it several years ago while on a cross country ride. I'm not sure if motorcycles are allowed to officially participate but I talked to several riders who made the run. Both are one-way runs on public roads not circuits. G | ||
| Gregtonn |
Blake, If you are truly "concerned" (your word, not mine) with public road course fatalities perhaps you spend some effort on cleaning up the Nurburgring. "In an attempt to obtain accurate figures, I visited Adenau police station in September 2002 to ask, and they reported Nordschleife 10 fatalities between January and September that year. A check with Nurburgring GmbH for the same period in 2005 provided a figure of two. That suggests somewhere in the three to twelve range in a full year." G | ||
| Blake |
Owens, >>> All I did was make the same statement that you made to another member about 'i win, you lose' That is inaccurate. Further, my comment to my BadWeB buddy Matt included a clear indication of jest/sarcasm by way of the " ![: ]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif) " emoticon. Greg, >>> If you are truly "concerned" (your word, not mine) with public road course fatalities perhaps you spend some effort on cleaning up the Nurburgring. Yet another clear example of an inability to comprehend the simple written word. Re-repeating:
That said (yet again), there have been a grand total of eleven fatal accidents at the Nürburgring since 1990 as a direct result of racing, or one every other year, which is lot less carnage in comparison to the 81 or on average four per year at the IOM. | ||
| Blake |
What do you suppose would happen to the death rate at the Nürburgring if the racing line there was mere feet from stone walls, sharp concrete curbs, stone buildings, not to mention trees and bridge abutments? Compared to the IOM course, the Nürburgring is race-safe. Forumula-1 race there. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
Blake "Owens, >>> All I did was make the same statement that you made to another member about 'i win, you lose' That is inaccurate. " I dont know who on here is buddies with you etc etc, so I dont know who youre joking with or not. But what you just replied with is not accurate at all. YOU DID say 'i win, you lose' and I did state a similar reply. But now youre saying Im wrong in saying that I stated a similar reply. THAT is inaccurate This feels like an Abbott and Costello skit... As for the Ring, at least the Nordeshleif (spelling??, and I've not been on the GP course), some of the walls ARE just feet away from the track. When I was on it last I rounded the Carousel and there was a TT Supra with the entire engine bay ripped off of the car, everything forward of the firewall was toast. The remainder of the car was perpendicular to the track and the rear bumper was right at the edge of the track | ||
| Davegess |
The Nurburgring is a strictly commercial venture used primarily for public hot laps. You pay your 20 bucks and hit the road as fast as you want. I think the local government owns it and promotes it. (All those ads and stories about a Cadillac or a Subaru setting a fast lap didn't just happen) Only a few actual races use this original north loop, much too dangerous for most car guys and deaths are very rare these days. But as many as a dozen tourists die trying there luck on the public days. Cars, bikes, trucks, buses all at once, as fast as you dare for the most part. Generates a good part of the revenue for the town. Promoted more subtly than the TT but promoted for profit none the less as is the huge and deadly Dakar event or commercially climbing of Mt. Everest. | ||
| Gregtonn |
"The company in charge of the track, Nurburgring GmbH, are reluctant to give out exact figures, but it is thought that between 2 and 12 people are killed at the track every year — and those are just the fatalities." "While it is unusual for deaths to occur during sanctioned races, there are many accidents and several deaths each year during public sessions. It is common for the track to be closed several times a day for cleanup, repair, and medical intervention. While track management does not publish any official figures, several regular visitors to the track have used police reports to estimate the number of fatalities at somewhere between 3 and 12 in a full year." "While the official fatality figures quoted by Nurburgring GmbH are very low, this is because they only count those who are declared dead on-scene: if they are still working on the victim at the time the helicopter takes them out, they are not classified as a fatality. I was on the scene of an accident where one victim was declared dead at the trackside while a second was declared dead in the helicopter shortly after take-off: that went down in the stats as one death and one injury." "Getting accurate figures for Ring fatalities is almost impossible as even the police may be unaware when someone dies in hospital after they have decided that no police action is required (ie. no other vehicle involved and deciding not to prosecute the victim). At the upper end of estimates, an ITU nurse at Koblenz hospital told us they get 2-3 admissions a week from the Ring, around half of whom don't make it..." The Nurburgring is promoted just like a theme park here in the US. If your car or bike is registered for use on public roads you just buy a ticket and join in the carnage. G | ||
| Gregtonn |
"Compared to the IOM course, the Nürburgring is race-safe. Forumula-1 race there." You are ill informed. The F1 track is a completely different circuit. G | ||
| Davegess |
I think all the X sports are very dangerous BUT they are a reaction to how safe our lives are. Some people need to be on the edge, risking death to really feel alive. We celebrate these folks because most of us do not want to do it but we like the tingle we get seeing others do it. | ||
| Blake |
Owens, It really doesn't matter to me, other than your claim that you said nothing else concerning me personally than to quote my statement, albeit disingenuously absent the accompanying emoticon.
"you... you... you..." "All I did was make the same statement that you made to another member about 'i win, you lose'"? Really? As I indicated earlier, that is an inaccurate statement.  | ||
| Blake |
Dave, Are the IOM races X-sports? If the X-Games ever hosts a road race competition, will it be on a death defying course with stone walls bounding the racing lines, let alone bounding the racing lines through high speed turns? Highly doubtful. Do any other sports promoted by government and supported by taxes on the people anywhere result in a death toll anywhere near approaching that at the IOM, four dead per year. If any X-Game competition ever approached that gruesome mark, would it be allowed to continue? Why not? Recall the bobsled situation in the last Winter games? Really dumb course safety design. One person died, and adjustments were immediately made to the competition to prevent it from happening again. And the adjustment wasn't to just apply some soft barrier at the singular point of impact. The recognition was made that there existed multiple points of fatality producing impact. The event organizers both slowed the speeds and added changes to the course safety structure to prevent that type of fatal off track crash and impact. It was not a band-aid approach. | ||
| Blake |
Greg, >>> The F1 track is a completely different circuit. Really, when traffic is directed through the pits, that isn't on the F1 course? They don't share the same roadway? The F1 track is a completely different circuit you say? Odd that their web site advertises that "On several days in the year the Nürburgring Grand Prix circuit is now open for tourists drivers." | ||
| Blake |
Forgot the link... http://www.nuerburgring.de/en.html But that's neither here nor there as to the point, that the Nürburgring does not include stone walls, buildings, cliffsides, and other fatal hazards as part of the race course. It's a race course like many, many others, just a lot longer. | ||
| Blake |
Great googly moogly! They stopped inviting people to race that course in 1983? It was too dangerous, even for cars? Okay, make the IOM course like that.  Instead of "where's your head at" insane... I'm wondering, who here has raced, and who here has experienced the wheels going out from under them and ended up in a careflight fighting to survive; how many have experienced both? When I watch the IOM on boards, I don't get a tingle. I get a pit in my stomach. Inviting people to race all out for glory and prize money on a deadly circuit like that is immoral. Looking to further promote, market and increase the commercial and economic gain of it is beyond the pale. My opinion. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
Apologies, I didnt think youd take those questions personally. So I guess you expect anyone that asks a question to anyone else should start a new thread? I would do that for you, but you'd probably just delete it, and it'd be one of the most boring threads on this board ever. So please, would you mind answering those questions? Will you boycott the moto mags? Will you write them and tell them to stop promoting the event? I truly do understand your disgust with an event that claims so many lives. I feel that way about smoking and drinking and driving and other really dumb stuff people do too often. But I dont understand the want to get it changed or stopped so bad. | ||
| Davegess |
Blake, you have to look closer, he F1 course may share the pits but 20 miles of the dangerous north loop are seldom raced on just used for recreation. You can argue which is more dangerous, the TT is straighter and many miles of it are wide open all of the north loop are lined with trees and almost no run off just armco. armco is just as deadly for bikes as stone. | ||
| Gregtonn |
"The F1 track is a completely different circuit you say?" Yes, unless you want to stoop to arguing petty semantics, it is. Nordschleife & Grand-Prix-Strecke: "The 20.8km Nordschleife (literally, northern loop) retains most of the original design. However, the original Südschleife (southern loop) was demolished to make way for a new GP circuit following the fiery Formula One crash of Nikki Lauda on the Nordschleife in 1976. In its place, a modern 4.5km GP-Strecke was constructed in 1984 that conforms to modern safety requirements. All F1 events are now held on this circuit. It's rather ironic that these two tracks—one very safe, the other quite dangerous—sit adjacent to one another..." http://www.heiser.net/documents/nurburgring/#nurb G | ||
| Slaughter |
Quick - show of hands here - whose opinion on the IOM was changed the last time we had exactly these same arguments on exactly the same issues by exactly the same people??? Hands up - who changed their opinion? It's OK, we won't laugh. Nobody?? OK then, who here has changed their mind this time? Anybody? Just raise your hand. Didn't think so - carry on. | ||
| Gregtonn |
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| Slaughter |
Awww CRAP Greg, I just promised that we wouldn't laugh! | ||
| Blake |
Owens, >>> Apologies, I didnt think you'd take those questions personally. "Questions"? You really don't read so well, not even your own writing, do you? LOL. You posed one question. The rest was statement. Let's review your trollish conduct here shall we? I objected to you turning the topic to me personally. In response, first you claimed that "All I did was make the same statement that you made to another member about 'i win, you lose'". With that claim shown blatantly false, now you claim that "I didnt (sic) think you'd take those questions personally." "Questions" you say? Inaccurate. You had posed one singular question.
One question, two statements in addition to the opening one. >>> So I guess you expect anyone that (sic) asks a question to anyone else should start a new thread? Inaccurate. Asking questions is not necessarily the same as engaging in personal commentary. >>> I would do that for you, but you'd probably just delete it, Inaccurate, and it wouldn't be "for (me)". The desire to discus me is yours, so it would be for you. >>> and it'd be one of the most boring threads on this board ever. I don't like to brag, so you may be correct. If I participated, I'd not misrepresent the views or statements of others as you've done here concerning mine. >>> So please, would you mind answering those questions? There was one question, now there are two. Sure, I'll answer since you asked so nicely. >>> Will you boycott the moto mags? I only subscribe to two. Cycle World and Road Racing World. As to those, no, not unless IOM racing coverage suddenly comprises more than a pittance of their product. I sure won't be supporting any "IOM real road racing" publications, television shows, books, DVDs or the like. >>> Will you write them and tell them to stop promoting the event? I have communicated my concerns. I don't presume to "tell them" how to run their business. If they were to sponsor an entry in the race, I would absolutely boycott them. I missed commenting on your earlier assertions: >>> It is terrible that people are killed doing this each year, but its no different from many other things. >>> Test pilots. We're talking about recreational racing. That said, test pilots don't expose themselves to unnecessary risk, nor do they die at the same rate and ALL test pilots I know are compensated for their work. Don't confusing the sport with the venue and the machine with the peril the venue itswelf imposes upon participants. If a test pilot crashes, he and his family are well looked after. Not so for the majority of IOM racing participants. >>> Other forms of motorcycle racing (last year two within a week or so) Comparing ALL of motorcycle circuit road racing to one venue? Name one other commercial racing venue that compares to killing four per year over the past 21 years as a direct result of racing. >>> Smoking - PERFECT example. Perfect? Not so much. Where are people enticed to smoke for the reward of prize money, awards, accolades? Where are people lured to watch such smoking events generating tens of millions of dollars in revenue? That said, each package of cigarettes includes one of the following warnings:  Also, people don't drop dead because they opened a pack of cigarettes just a bit incorrectly, or because they didn't get one lit just so. >>> Its (sic) all about choice. These men want to do this and know that there is risk involved. Which yet again, is not my point. I do not object to them choosing to race. I object to the greed heads seeking increased revenues and economic growth through further promotion of the race. >>> I dont (sic) think IOM is profiting on their deaths, (sic) they are profiting on the race. Its (sic) a one of a kind event (sic) and known the world over. Without the risk, Nowhere near as many spectators or racers would attend. Take the statements of folks here who are enthusiasts of the race attest to that. Words like "tingle" and "thrill" have been used to describe the attraction of the venue. Being "known the world over" means little. The Nürburgring. They stopped racing the dangerous parts, and those are nowhere near as dangerous as the IOM course. | ||
| Blake |
Dave, Blake, you have to look closer, he F1 course may share the pits but 20 miles of the dangerous north loop are seldom raced on just used for recreation. You can argue which is more dangerous, the TT is straighter and many miles of it are wide open all of the north loop are lined with trees and almost no run off just armco. armco is just as deadly for bikes as stone. "You can argue which is more dangerous" I really don't believe anyone would. Did you view the two videos? The "Ring" is dangerous for sure, but it pales ludicrously in comparison to the IOM course. Does Germany promote motorcycle races on the North "Ring"? Great, I'd like to see the same standard adopted by the IOM for the IOM course. Four dead per year. As a commercially promoted government-sanctioned event, entirely unacceptable. | ||
| Blake |
Steve, Maybe someone reading but not participating might learn the truth like I did accidentally a few years ago and be convinced to stop watching/supporting the IOM racing. Frankly I've yet to see a single argument that makes any sense justifying the efforts of the IOM government in promoting the death trap. I've seen people claim that the IOM does not benefit from the races. That is a ludicrous joke. They benefit to the tune of tens of millions of dollars. A resident even asserts the following:
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| Blake |
Thanks for the clarification on the two circuits Greg. I now understand that you were only commenting on the northern loop. No organized racing there? If so, and also since the death rate there due to racing, should it even exist there, pales in comparison to the IOM, then okay, I'm fine with that. Get rid of the commercially promoted racing at the IOM in the same way, I have no issue of contention. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
You are so ridiculous. Thanks for the laughs. Especially the part where you call me a troll....lovely. | ||
| Gregtonn |
Sorry Steve, couldn't help it. The contortions some people go through in an attempt to justify their positions (pun intended) are funny even if they do look painful. G | ||
| Blake |
>>> You are so ridiculous. Not so much that I cease topical discussion in favor of personal commentary. >>> The contortions some people go through in an attempt to justify their positions (pun intended) are funny even if they do look painful. Says the contortionist with his head up his...  |
