| Author | Message | ||
     Desert_bird |
Rolling along on the beautiful mountaneous road between Oaxaca city and Puerto Escondido, in the middle-of-nowhere-Mexico and wondering how I got so lucky to be riding my fantastic Uly . . . . Then it happens. Speedo and tack fall to zero, engine light comes on and GPS goes dead. Bike still makes spark but soon enough the motor starts to die. Suddenly gauges spring back to life again then whole cycle starts over. Soon the bike does completely. I roll into a small squalid roadside restaurant - the kind I usually fly by - and meekishly ask if I can poke around my bike in the cool of their shade. They offer their typical Mexican hospitality . Love this country. Pull off seat and immediately see my Shorai battery melting and bulging out like a balloon. It's hot and looks like it's about to blow. The battery is about two months old. S#!T. This is how the naysayers are vindicated! With me in the middle of nowhere and no juice! I offered to be the guinea pig for the Shorai. My tough luck to do that in the middle of the Mexican Sierra Madre during a trip to Brazil. I've got a mountain bike on the back of my Uly, (better four wheels than two as long as both are parallel) so I pull it off, put the wheels and roll down the hill to the nearest pueblo. No one has batteries. After the 40 minute ride back up to my (moto)bike, huffing all the way. It's a steep looong climb and the sun is baking the thin black strip of pavement. How internal combustion makes one forget that thing called gravity! I have to decide: Either park the bike and roll back to Oaxaca city on a passing truck for a battery and return the next day, or try to find something big enough to haul me and the gear down to Puerto Escondido. Barely caught my breath and I flag down a small Nissan with an open cage in the back. Perfect. They take a look at me drenched in sweat and dirt and my bike. Two fallen outsiders. We bargain to 900 Pesos to get our sorry butt to the coast - where I finally sit now. Bike not so much as a whimper when I turn her on, but the wide oceans extend beyond. So. Is the Shorai battery shite? Froggy commented on the lack of a chip to control charging in the Shorias. Or would this have something to do with a faulty voltage regulator sending too much juice to the battery? Didn't pack a voltage regulator. Hmm. She's an '08 with no history of problems. DB | ||
| Froggy |
I'd wager it was the battery and not your VR. Probably the heat combined with the fan blowing more hot air back there it couldn't take it. I'm sorry to hear about your failure, especially so soon! | ||
| Desert_bird |
Heya Froggy, Thanks for chirping in. I'll check if I can get a new battery down in these parts. Thing is that my fan never comes anyway unless I'm in traffic for a looong time. I was moving when had the blowout. I have the earlier fan logic that turns on when the bike is turned off. What do I look for if the VR should go out? DB | ||
| Froggy |
Usually when the VR fails, it will allow too much voltage on your bike, and usually the first thing to go is the headlight bulbs. A quick shot of 20v is enough to blow them. The battery can (should?) be able to take quite a bit more abuse than the electronics on your bike. | ||
| Hughlysses |
If you can't find the right battery, you can get creative and mount the smallest thing (ATV battery, lawn tractor battery, car battery) you can find on top of the seat, in a saddlebag, wherever. Extend the leads with the heaviest wire you can find. Whatever it takes, to get it running and back on the road. | ||
| Portero72 |
Can't really advise you on your battery issue, sir, but I can express my extreme jealousy about your trip. I've done that ride many times. Oaxaca is my FAVORITE Mexican state. Huatulco, on the coast, is a great place to kill some time. Quieter than either Escondido or Angel. Just FYI. | ||
| Missin44 |
I've seen the same thing happen with car batteries. However never on nothing that's only 2 months old. I doubt the heat had anything to do with it, Mexico is no different than the US in the summer. You most likely have 1 or 2 things, over charging or short inside battery. I'm guessing that you got a defective battery that developed a short inside the battery, in the cases I've seen in a car it's always been in the battery. Replace the battery and ride locally for a couple days and see how it goes. Also it may be a good idea once you do replace the battery is get a spare in case it happens again. At least then you may be able to get back to civilization before it happens again. let us know how it goes. You may also be able to find a car or motorcycle shop of some sort locally to check the charging system, it's a pretty simple process. (Message edited by missin44 on March 26, 2011) | ||
| Panhead_dan |
Is it possible that the charging system is actually overcharging (not unheard of) but the shorai's more robust capacity was acting like a shunt, which prevented a headlight bulb from burning? DB, have you been able to tell if your bulbs are working? Someone needs to post the proceedure for checking the charging sys. This guy is stranded in Mexico. | ||
| Panhead_dan |
I don't find much in the service manual for checking a vr, just stator and batt. Maybe in the elect manual? I don't have one of those. | ||
| Missin44 |
A simple way to check voltage (not load) is to install a new battery and using a simple multimeter, start engine. Touch one lead to positive and the other to negative battery post. And read voltage, you should see in the 14.5 volt range, if you see something in the 15 to 18 volt range that's not good. Rev the engine a couple times and observe if voltage remains about the same or spikes to an over voltage situation. However Froggy is correct in saying that in most cases if a system is in an over charge situation the lights will generally burn out before the battery fails. While this isn't a 100% perfect check it is a very good indicator. Get a good battery connected to the system and before starting just check the lights, if they work I would feel safe in saying the charging system is OK. Considering your location you may have a problem getting a perfect diagnosis. In that case your stuck with plan B. Below is a link you may find helpful. Assuming you have Power Point take a look. The second should work ok also without PP. The links are in regard to cars but they're all the same for the most part, the principles still apply. www.gactaern.org/...Systems.../ESD_5_Charging_System_Tests_Voltage_Information.ppt http://www.w8ji.com/battery_and_charging_system.htm (Message edited by missin44 on March 26, 2011) | ||
| Desert_bird |
Thanks for the response fellows. I'm in Puerto Escondido and spotted a Yamaha place yesterday as I rolled into town in back of the truck. I'll pass up there today and see if I can get a new battery. Panhead_dan, I'm using 35W HID's on both high and low beams. Don't know if they would burn out if there were overcharging problem the same way incandescent bulbs would. I'll go and check the maximum voltage on the HID Ballast. I have a hunch that they will take up to 16 volts, more than the stock bulb would accept, and therefore would not tell me if the VR were overcharging. I recall hearing the lights trying to fire as the battery was dying when I pulled over, so they appear to work. Will know when I get a good battery connected up. Thanks for the suggestion Hughlysses. She already looks like an moto RV with all the gear and bicycle on back. Would be great to have a huge auto battery strapped on there as well! Here is a recent picture. I should be able to find a voltmeter in some auto store here and check if that VR is putting out more juice than should. So much little details getting ready for a trip like this. And so many beautiful roads down here. The Uly loves these roads, just loves them. I totally agree with you Portero72. Beautiful down here. . . But sure wish I did that other extra thing in prepping; getting a LED volt meter so that I could have caught this electric issue. Perhaps I should get that (and an extra VR) mailed out to me somewhere further south. Somehow I thought that the VR would be find and the (awesome looking) Shoria would be good to go . . . Murphy strikes again! Anyhow, out try try and find a replacement battery. Let you know what I find. }  | ||
| Eryngium |
Oaxaca! On my short list. So jealous..... | ||
| Desert_bird |
Turn the corner and I see this place. Hell yah!  LTH powers Mexico  Looks like a perfect fit. 12V/Amp but not clear how many CCA  Fill it up with acid at the store, seal with the included rubber sealing strip and it's charged and ready to go. Getting warm too.  Perfect fit. Just like stock   This is what I'm reading with setting on 250. Found this multimeter at a little corner shop selling enormous sound systems with flashing LED lamps and aluminum cases (even with Mariachi music those speakers sounded awful). Engine idling and one HID on.  Multimeter set to 50 DCA. Am I blind or is there no DC rating DC rating on this gauge?  Bike turns right over and the HID both on. Took her for a spin along the coast and all is well - for now. Still wondering about the VR. Once I understand how to use this el-cheapo multimeter or get a more professional tool then I'll know the final verdict, whether the Shoria or my VR is shite. This is the bulging Shorai. Won't even turn on the HID when I pulled it out. Hemorrhaged far less than when the case was literally melting on the side of the road. Am I going to have to lug this thing around with me for months in Latin America so that I can send it off for a refund? At least it's lighter than a candy bar.   | ||
| Froggy |
Wow! Great pics! I don't think its just you that can't read that meter, I can't either but I've never used a meter that had a pointing thing in it, I've only used digital ones. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Desert_bird- I think I've got the meter figured out. You set the control to 50 DCV (up to 50 volts DC). That makes the full range on the voltage scale (which is marked in red "AC 10V") 50V, not the "10" that's printed on the scale. The "2" indication is 1/5 of 10, so "2" would equal 10 volts with the meter set on this scale, and the unmarked long line between "2" and "3" would be 15 volts. So, with the bike idling and the meter set to 50 DCV, the needle should be pointing between "2" and "3" on the red "AC10V" scale. Make sense? IMPORTANT SAFETY TIP: When you get home, install an on-bike voltage indicator/meter! | ||
| Luftkoph |
I've never used a meter that had a pointing thing in it showing you age again there youngin | ||
| Djz |
Not being there to work it i would think you would set it to the 50 volts DC and read the black 0 to 50 scale the one right above AC 10 volt scale but ! Hope all work out and you enjoy your trip. I will ride from Oregon to Ecuador this coming winter.I would love to take uly but i do not think it is the bike to take far. I worry something may go wrong and no way to fix. | ||
| Hughlysses |
I think that black 0-50 scale is for when you're measuring amperage with the control set to 50 mA, but Djz may be right. Probably the easiest way to check the meter scale is set it to 50V DC and read the battery with the bike turned off. That should at least show you where ~12V is on the scale. With the bike running, the voltage should be slightly higher than that. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
I believe Djz is correct. That one scale is either mili Amps or DC volts depending what you set it to read and you set it for reading up to 50 volts. | ||
| Missin44 |
I agree Djz and Elect, set it to 50 on DCV dial and read voltage on the V.ma on the meters 0-50 scale. Given that it appears to be reading 44 volts, which doesn't make sense. If that is the case the battery is not the problem. The main problem is I'm not sure what scale to read for DC volts for this particular multimeter. That "pointy thing" is a needle BTW (LOL). The meter I use has a needle but it has a separate DC volt scale to take your reading. Given where you have the dial set (50 DCV) the readings make no sense except for the V.ma scale. I guessing this is a scale used for DC milliamps (current) and DC volts depending on how you have the dial set. Was the reading in the picture taken with the it running or not running? If it was running turn the bike off and check the reading then and compare the two. A fully charge battery should read 13.8 volts. Regardless I would have it checked out at the next shop you come across. You said you saw a Yamaha shop in town, swing by there and have them take a look at it. (Message edited by missin44 on March 27, 2011) | ||
| Desert_bird |
I think this multimeter is funky. This is the reading it gives from the battery with the DC dial at 50 and the motor off. Save for some very creative arithmetic, nothing seems to correspond to anything in a 11-14V range.  No worries. I'm gonna go give the surf a try and check again tomorrow. Thanks again for all your help. DB | ||
| Hughlysses |
It does seem like the meter has got to be funky. If you're traveling with another bike, you could always compare readings on that bike (stopped/running). As long as the meter shows approximately the same indications on both bikes, you should be OK. | ||
| Jwblue |
Desert_bird, did you zero the meter? Since the meter is new it might never have been adjusted. It could be way off. See the accessible slot at the base of the needle? You can use a flat-blade screwdriver to adjust the meter. Put the meter into the 50 V DC setting, short the leads together, then use a flat blade to adust the needle to exactly zero. Then with the engine off, using the black, 50 V scale, measure the battery. | ||
| 7873jake |
Hey D_B, Zero that meter like JW said, using a flat blade in the slot between the KLEY and MULT001. In case you get back on line tonight, give us an approximate time you expect to be on-line tomorrow and posting and hopefully one of us (skilled in the black arts of non-DVM volt meters) could lurk around that time waiting for you to post. You could probably find someone local to sort you out but there is that old adage about learning to fish vs. being given a fish... (Message edited by 7873jake on March 27, 2011) | ||
| Blake |
Battery-only measurement reads 39 on 50 scale. Running bike reads 44 on 50 scale. If 39 indicates 12.7 V (fully charged battery) then 44 would indicate 44/39*12.7=14.32V Close enough and on the lower side of safe. Looks like your bike is okay.  | ||
| Sharkguy |
Desertbird, I just checked 3 bikes with my analog multimeter set on 50 dc and they all are reading around 3 marks past the black 50(where yours is reading 190). According to my digital meter also placed on the same battery that would be 13.38 volts where yours is reading around 190 on the the same scale (I don't know how many volts that would be). I would check with another meter or like the others have said make sure yours has been calibrated correctly. Hope this helps. | ||
| Sparky |
Hmmm. The Shorai LFX battery got a fairly favorable review in the April Motorcycle Consumer News magazine mentioning attributes as lighter weight, a greater tolerance for heat and cold, lower self discharge rate, faster recharge and no gases produced during charging. But they warn not to use a charger with automatic desulfation mode because of high voltage pulses. All that doesn't matter much in your situation now though. But the article does give contact info, so perhaps you could call them for advice on how to return it for a warranty replacement rather than lug it around on the rest of your trip. Shorai Batteries 845 Stewart Dr. Ste. C Sunnyvale, Ca, 94085 888-477-4848. shoraipower.com. | ||
| Blake |
Darryl, How much do you trust the evaluations by Motorcycle Consumer News? Did they actually test them on a prolonged basis? | ||
| Sparky |
I understand the rag is reiterating what the mfr claims and the first half of the article does just that. However the rest of the article explains their test over the last few months when they installed a 18 Ah version in a new Concours (larger capacity than stock) and a newish Gold Wing (smaller capacity than stock). Their write-up is mostly favorable: in each case, starting was faster and reliable. Granted their test duration was likely during winter and not subject to prolonged SoCal heat waves but, yes, they did test them. And I trust these guys, mostly because they call 'em as they see 'em and don't accept advertiser money that would likely influence their evaluations. BTW, the Shorai lithium iron (LiFePO4) motorcycle batteries were named "Innovation of the Month"! Perhaps we should send a Uly to them for an impartial extended long-term battery test? | ||
| Desert_bird |
So last update: In typical small-town way I found a local Mexican compadre who runs around on a 1200GS and had a friend at a moto shop with a working digital multimeter. Horay! I toyed with the multimeter as per JwBlue and 7873jake suggested. Yup, that is an adjustment point but, it's completely useless. Hecho en China. Just gives more wacky readings. Pulled up to a line of beached-out dirt bikes and a mechanic pulls out his multimeter. A real digital one! The battery reads 12.9 volts with motor off. Turn her on and the reading jumps to 13.5 volts. Rev up between 3-7K rpm and the reading never gets higher to 13.99 volts. Seems right on target, wouldn't you say? So the verdict appears that VR is not shot (thank god and bless Buell), the Shorai is shite, and Kley multimeters aren't worth a damn. This means that I can keep on moving on southward towards Guatemala via San Cristobal de las Casas. Skyped up Shorai and spoke with David, Shorai's President. Very nice guy. I ran down the events of the last several days. He was very sorry to hear it and offered to rush me the new model proper 18 amp unit. Very customer oriented. David told me a few things for others interested in these batteries. It appears that the Shorai's site may have suggested an inappropriate battery for me. (This will be fixed when David researches the Uly's stock power needs and stock configurations). Where David claims the Shorai 18 amp unit should be used, the site suggested the 14 amp for the Uly, with the 18 amp as a step up option. I explained that the stock lead battery is a 12 amp and that I used it without problem for nearly 3 years. David seems to think that those batteries actually produce more than the printed 12 amp; that 7-8 pounds typically are 12 amp. 11 pounds like the original Uly battery are higher to provide for the substantial spikes needed. David says he is going to check this and update the Shorai site. I thought that it was CCA which was the key issue for peak starting needs, and that amperage mostly related to peripheral electric needs when the motor is running. But as is obvious here, I'm no electrical engineer. If true, then according to Shorai's site, the 14 amp unit I ran provided well over 250 CCA, which seems more than adequate for peak starting needs of the Uly and way more than the stock lead battery. The battery uses completely new technology which is still in development and with more evolved iterations coming out. However to date, there seems to be a 1/1000 failure rate in which a crimp in battery cells lead to hot spot and ultimate battery failure, especially when the charge drops below a certain threshold and copper forms on the cells. This manufacturing issue has been addressed in latest update to the batteries, which is due out this April. This may have happened in my battery. It appears that there are no other systemic problems with the batteries to date. The new batteries will have more robust bolt-on mounts for electrical leads. Current ones are a bit flimsy. There will also be an overcharge circuit to prevent VR overcharging and related issues. In addition, David says later this year Shorai's may also come with a circuit which cuts off if battery power levels drop below something like a 30% threshold. The battery would provide several short bursts for last-start attempts and then shut off completely. This is to prevent the low-power issue when the cells lose so much power that they begin acting funky and dying. He thinks that this may also happened to me because I had to push start the bike on several occasions due to my own error. (my old GPS is connected to a relay which is tripped when the bike is on. So my headlights are on if I want to fiddle with GPS mapping. I know. . . . Another thing to deal with.) Charging circuitry is what distinguishes the Erik Buell Racing lithium battery from others. This was one point which had Froggy warning (me)  Finally, Shorai may also provide a special jumping cable designed to prevent peak surges when jumping from another 12v auto source. I was't aware of this, but apparently these surges can be in excess of 100 amps, which destroys both lead and lithium batteries alike. Anyhow, David presented Shorai as a cutting edge firm of performance oriented American engineers trying to produce a top notch product at a reasonable price. I can respect that. So, I'm back on the road soon. Thanks to all for chirping in with your expertise and suggestions. I suspect that it will happen again prior to arriving in Porto Seguro, Brazil. You all make owning the Uly even more of a privilege. Adelante! (Message edited by Desert_bird on March 28, 2011) |
