| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
Here they are... Appendix G | ||
| Froggy |
Well that pretty much confirms the 100 units and $40k that Erik has mentioned. | ||
| Blake |
The rest of the rules... http://www.amaproracing.com//assets/AMAPro-RR-2011 -Rulebook.pdf | ||
| 46champ |
Thanks Blake that answers a lot of speculation that has been going on here and on other boards. | ||
| Lostartist |
holy hell that's a lot of rules, there should only be one rule, go fast and whoever doesn't die, WINS!! jk kinda | ||
| Trojan |
A cynic (or anti Buell journalist) may look at those rules and think that they have been written for Buell and Buell alone. Which other sportsbike manufacturer could these apply to? They certainly don't seem to apply to mainstream Japanese bikes that will build in the thousands rather than the 18 necessary here? Good news for Erik though of course  | ||
| Court |
>>>A cynic (or anti Buell journalist) may look at those rules and think that they have been written for Buell And of course a realist would intuitively know they were promulgated to prevent something like a Britten, a $500,000 machine, built in a quantity of 10 over 8 years, from coming in, wiping up the "real" bikes and walking away with a "hobby championship". Buell has a history of having a dealer network that extends well beyond 25 years and has produced over 150,000 production motorcycles. This will be fun. | ||
| Trojan |
And of course a realist would intuitively know they were promulgated to prevent something like a Britten, a $500,000 machine, built in a quantity of 10 over 8 years, from coming in, wiping up the "real" bikes and walking away with a "hobby championship". There is nothing stopping someone such as Britten again producing the required amount and selling them just to homologate a bike that could wipe the floor with everyone else again. Nowhere in the rules does it say that the manufacturer has to make a profit from selling them at $40,000 each If the manufacturer was so intent on winning that they could afford to throw money away then it could be done  According to the AMA rules the only thing stopping Ducati entering the Desmoseddicci into AMA superbike is the selling price. They could knock out a small batch at a loss just to win at racing (Just like the big factories have done for years). It wouldn't be in the spirit of the rules, but who would enforce that? | ||
| Elvis |
I think these rules are excellent. Certainly any other manufacturer is free to produce bikes that comply with these rules. Are we going to see a lot of other manufacturers producing special bikes just designed to these rules? No. Common sense and experience tell us that, but they are free to do so and, as a consumer, I would certainly welcome the opportunity to have more bikes on the market. | ||
| Trojan |
I'm not saying they are wrong at all, and in fact they could work very well indeed so long as no manufacturers decide to 'test' the rules with loss making homologation specials, which would upset the apple cart completely. My original remark wasn't that the rules are good or bad, but that in some quarters could be made to look as if Buell in particular are being 'favourited' again by the AMA by making the rules fit bike rather than other way round. It doesn't really matter if there is any truth in that or not, just the suggestion of it will be enough. I've said it befoe and I'll say it again. I am desperately keen to see Buell racing and winning in Superbike with the new 1190. What I don't want to see is even the mearest suggestion that it has been done by the AMA changing the rules just to suit Buell. This happened in the DSB rules and the old rules when the XBRR was allowed in, and both times th epress made more of this than any achievement by the teams. What we need this time iof for there to be absolutley no suggestion that the AMA are making the rules fit Buell or any other manufacturer above anyone else. These rules come at the same time that Buell is building the 1190, which just happens to be the only new bike that the rules could possibly pertain to right now, and that will be a source of speculation in certain quarters I can almost guaratee it. (Message edited by trojan on March 03, 2011) | ||
| Elvis |
Matt, there is more than just the monetary loss preventing Ducati from entering a Desmoseddicci . . . if they enter it, they DAMN well better win.  And you know, probably better than most of us, that there is a LOT more involved in winning a race than a great bike. And anyhow, what would be wrong with Ducati offering and racing production versions of the Desmoseddicci under these rules? It would make entertaining racing and it would be great to be able to buy one for $40,000. I think people in the paddock know enough about their bikes and their teams to know that no-one is going to take advantage of these rules to 'steal' a championship. I can't see how such possibilities are a bad thing for anyone. | ||
| Elvis |
I'm was typing my response as you were posting yours Matt. Sounds like we're pretty much in agreement. | ||
| Elvis |
As for the origin of the rules, the original rules had no limits mentioned. Erik Buell Racing could have complied with those rules by building one bike, but I think they and the AMA realized there were problems with that, so Erik Buell Racing probably asked the AMA what the real limits where and then, after consultation with the AMA made sure the 1190RS would meet those requirements rather than the AMA writing their rules to Erik Buell Racing. | ||
| Court |
>>>According to the AMA rules the only thing stopping Ducati entering the Desmoseddicci into AMA superbike is the selling price. I think we are all in agreement. The AMA could care less what it costs to build the bike. And, in all candor, their concern is not in the $40K-80K range . . . it's to prevent the $500,000 bike. You don't have to be terribly keen to add of the parts on the 1190RS and arrive with an arithmetic total that exceeds $40,000. They difference is essentially a marketing cost. If the manufacturer chooses to bear that cost . . . .jump in the pool. If your name is ERIK BUELL RACING . . . .I don't care how good your lawnmowers or pianos are . . . if you are not at least an interesting presence on the race track you are nothing. The AMA sets the price at an arbitrary number to make require the bikes to emulate street bikes in terms of price . . . the world of full of folks who've paid $40,000 for Harley-Davidsons, Ducati and MV Agusta products. Buell, frankly, has gone to extreme measures to prevent another round of "cheater bike" babble like that which occurred when Danny Eslick toured the country giving lessons on what was damn near a stock Buell 1125R. No rules were created, modified or suspended to accommodate the 1190RS. This is going to be an exciting year . . . in a number of countries and venues. | ||
| Slaughter |
When you read the part-by-part and system-by-system and aftermarket homologation rules, there's a bit more than just the $40K, 100 units and calendar. | ||
| Blake |
>>> A cynic (or anti Buell journalist) may look at those rules and think that they have been written for Buell and Buell alone. Which other sportsbike manufacturer could these apply to? Uhm, all of them?  Some of note that I hope might take advantage of the free and open nature of the American Motorcyclist Association's road racing homologation requirements:
"A cynic (or anti Buell journalist) may look at those rules and think that they have been written for Buell and Buell alone." Really? You don't have to be a cynic to recognize that the FIM homologation rules and others with onerous homologation requirement have been written for the big factories and the big factories alone. Their rules really are a joke, the FIM WSBK rules allow transformation of what was a street bike into a near MotoGP machine, yet they require 3,000 be produced for street use. >>> There is nothing stopping someone such as Britten again producing the required amount and selling them just to homologate a bike that could wipe the floor with everyone else again. Except for the quantity and thus MASSIVE expense involved; 100 in one year is different from 8 in ten years. >>> Nowhere in the rules does it say that the manufacturer has to make a profit from selling them at $40,000 each : ) If the manufacturer was so intent on winning that they could afford to throw money away then it could be done ; ) Which is also the case for a requirement of 3000. The issue is not that some incredibly wealthy concern be prevented from producing a kit bike and subverting the spirit of the rules. The issue is what limit best serves the racing and the spirit of free enterprise. It's clear that a homologation requirement of 100 does that since it allows even minor commercial concerns to enter the contest and prove their product on the big stage. When and if the spirit of the rules is subverted, then guess what, AMA Pro Racing is free to adjust the rules accordingly. Freedom rocks! | ||
| Blake |
Matt, >>> My original remark wasn't that the rules are good or bad, but that in some quarters could be made to look as if Buell in particular are being 'favourited' again by the AMA by making the rules fit bike rather than other way round. It doesn't really matter if there is any truth in that or not, just the suggestion of it will be enough. Enough for what? LOL! I'll be doubled over in hysterical laughter if that is the case and the 1190 competes well against the efforts of some of the largest corporations in the world. Poor, poor BMW? Poor poor Honda? LOL! Such a "journalist" will only be revealing how deeply in they are wedged in the pocket(s) of the big factories. In the end, it won't matter a wit. If Buell is successful, it will generate more success. Yes, it will also embarrass the big factories. Lovely, ain't it? Any controversy will only benefit Erik Buell Racing in this epic David versus Goliath motorcycle racing contest. There is no downside for Erik Buell Racing except for failure. Care to wager against the 1190 finishing top 5 in its first full season of AMA SBK? | ||
| Blake |
Steve, >>> When you read the part-by-part and system-by-system and aftermarket homologation rules, there's a bit more than just the $40K, 100 units and calendar. Now Mr. Slaughter, let's not have any of that type of substantive information polluting our little rhetorical rant-fest here.  Excellent point! ![: ]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif) (Message edited by Blake on March 03, 2011) | ||
| Davegess |
The other thing the rules do is allow anyone to buy a potentially competitive platform and turn it into a race winner. The problem with the old AMA series and with the WSBK series to some extant is that only those blessed by the factory can get a competitive package. The result in AMA was a small handful of bikes that even had a chance to run up front. Every race was 3 guys with factory bikes and then, 4 seconds (or more) back, the balance. Kind of boring. For many years it looked a lot like each factory got to pick a class to win. Two Suzuki's and then far behind the other factory bikes and then even further behind the rest was the norm in superbike. WSBK has had very good support with the factories allowing the satellite top notch equipment so the two or three guys and brands don't win every week. | ||
| 2008xb12scg |
Blake thanks for the info! I was thinking that was the case when he said the bike was going to cost 40k and he intended to sell around 100. I was thinking he didn't just pull those #s out of his back side. This is going to be awesome! I had my boss ask me about the new buell a few days ago. Mind you he's a die hard 'zuki guy and didn't like the XBs. And he was stoked about the 1190rs. I met that guy and he was really cool, he said. I can't believe he did that after HD dumped him. My point is people will slowly come to our side. | ||
| Knickers |
Was there as much consternation over homologation when Honda was building RC30s and RC45s or Yamaha was building OWO1s. All special, unobtainium "street" bikes intended for one purpose only, winning superbike races. Hell, even the VR1000 was welcome in with only 50 units built for sale in Poland. Or how bout the Foggy Petronas bikes in WSB? How many of them made it to the street? Last I heard they were all locked in a warehouse somewhere. Anyone who whines about Buell receiving special treatment by the AMA doesn't know their history. | ||
| Jaimec |
WSB isn't controlled by the AMA. What they do doesn't matter. At least the Hondas and Yamahas were available in the country in which they were being RACED. The VR1000 was a pure fiasco from start to finish (not to mention it COULD have been an early beginning to Erik's career, but Harley was too thick-headed to see the wisdom in Erik's thinking). Someone posted earlier: "Harley engineers would waste HOURS arguing proven principles of physics" (or something like that). Idiots then, still idiots now. Nothing's changed. | ||
| Crusty |
The OWs and the RCs were available to the factory teams. The privateers got second generation equipment that weren't quite as competitive. I remember watching Kenny Roberts and Johnny Cecotto lap the rest of the field at Daytona in 1976.There were other equally fast riders in that race, but their bikes didn't have nearly the same level of performance. It was kinda like Moto GP today. | ||
| Jaimec |
In 76 weren't they racing two-stroke TZs?? The RCs and OWs didn't come along till the 80s. | ||
| Davegess |
The AMA has seen the factory guys getting bikes that NO ONE could buy. The rules allowed so many changes and special parts that the bikes only remotely resembled the bikes on the showroom floor. The special parts were only provided to the factory teams. These were 1/4 of a million dollar machines. Micheal Jordan argued with Suzuki constantly about having to race inferior bikes. They would simply tell him he could not afford them. They would not mention a price. I like the new rules better. If Honda wants to build a special bike they have to make a 100 and sell them. Anyone could buy and race one. | ||
| Court |
>>>If Honda wants to build a special bike they have to make a 100 and sell them. Anyone could buy and race one. Is it safe to say that Buell has . . . single-handedly . . . . brought fairness and equity to American Motorcycle Racing? Certainly seems to have been the net effect . . . | ||
| 01lightning |
the sky is the limit now. I'm excited about this year big time...hell, the 1190rs could be the bike to beat...imagine that. A definite possibility...then everyone will be beating down that door to that tiny place of business. Erik Buell Racing Rocks! yeah man! shoot | ||
| Reepicheep |
Seems simple enough to me. 1) The bikes you see racing are not the bikes you can buy at your local show room. They are significantly modified and those modifications are very expensive. The modifications may be less visible, like pulling 1000 cranks off the assembly line and choosing the one that is the closest to the optimal spec, or they may be more visible like $30,000 worth of suspension and brake upgrades. 2) The AMA rules are NOT designed to make the bike you race the same as the bike your ride on the street. That would be stupid. You don't need $30,000 worth of Ohlins to ride on the street. 3) The AMA rules ARE designed to make sure that somebody doesn't just "buy the podium". If you want to spend $250,000 to build up a bike, you can do that, but you have to sell 99 more of them to people you will be racing against, and sell them for under $40k each. (Where $40,000 is the observed practical minimum to race at this level and not suck.) 4) The AMA rules ARE designed to make racing not suck to watch. So at the end of the day if they can make a decision that is reasonably fair and that makes for a better fan experience, they are going to make it. So deal with it. You know, just like you deal with the NFL draft process, and Olympic doping restrictions, and College athletics funding constraints, and equipment rules for competitive shooting, and just about every other rational and enjoyable form of sporting event. That season watching Danny Eslick on the 1125 going toe to toe with that annoying Kawasaki rider was an absolute blast. If the AMA had come back the next year and given the inline fours a little extra edge, or the 1125 a little less edge, I'd have been all for it if it felt reasonable... even if it cost the Buell the win. It was just such great racing... (Message edited by reepicheep on March 04, 2011) | ||
| Crusty |
In 1976, the Yamaha factory team riders had OW-31 Race bikes, which were an improved factory only version of the TZ-750s that were available for Privateers. Each year after that, the factory teams got the better bikes. The original OW-01 was a two stroke four; somewhere around 1980 or 81 if my memory serves. When Superbike became the premier class, the practice of giving the factory teams superior equipment continued until DMG began running the racing series. Then Buell came along and really threw a wrench into the works by offering competitive equipment for a reasonable price. But we all know that part of the story. | ||
| Buellhusker |
What does it pay to win a Daytona Sport Bike ? and what is the total purse for a race like that? And how far back does the payoff go? |
