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Hughlysses
| | Posted on Friday, February 25, 2011 - 06:08 pm: | 
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Road_kill- AFAIK, you're the first one that's reported a 2010 rear wheel failure. Disappointing, but that's good to know at any rate.
As I posted above, Erik Buell Racing sells the bearings, seals, inside spacer, and the small outside spacer that goes on the disk side. |
Natexlh1000
| | Posted on Friday, February 25, 2011 - 06:12 pm: |
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+1 on the timkens.
My 2008 rear bearings went bad at 16,000 due to water. Bad enough so that pushing on the seals made a drop come out!
Just driving in the rain, no stream crossings! |
Road_kill
| | Posted on Friday, February 25, 2011 - 07:01 pm: |
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Thanks Hughlysses, I'll send my money to ERB. I sure hope I'm the last '10 wheel owner to experience such a failure. In any case, I advise all to keep an eye out for ANY signs of bearing failure. If you saw mine, it would scare you! |
Electraglider_1997
| | Posted on Friday, February 25, 2011 - 07:26 pm: |
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2010 wheel bearing shelled out! Had to be reported sooner or later. For the folks that refuse to smear anti-seize on the outside of the bearing because "they shouldn't have to", it really helps. It provides the seal that Buell left off to begin with. |
Hughlysses
| | Posted on Friday, February 25, 2011 - 08:07 pm: |
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The 2010's HAVE the extra seal. |
Electraglider_1997
| | Posted on Monday, February 28, 2011 - 11:10 am: |
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Hugh,
I know that. Just pointing out that a older style wheel can be sealed with permatex anti-seize, or at least that seems to be the case at least with my wheels. When I wipe that silver stuff off to get at the bearing seals, the parts that would naturally rust if unprotected, are always new looking under the anti-seize.
If the spacer is the culprit, then it would seem to be a fairly easy fix. Especially with some of the ULY owners here that can fabricate parts and then sell them to the rest of us. |
Jessemc
| | Posted on Monday, February 28, 2011 - 10:34 pm: |
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Electraglider: If the spacer is the culprit, then it would seem to be a fairly easy fix. Especially with some of the ULY owners here that can fabricate parts and then sell them to the rest of us.
The reference to ham fisted over torquing and compression of the spacer comes up a lot, it sounds plausible, and I'd like to think it's true since I can avoid the problem by doing things the "Right Way." But, why did Buell go to the expense of a new wheel design rather than using a spacer that couldn't be deformed or was much more difficult to deform? |
Arcticktm
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2011 - 12:13 pm: |
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I don't get the "crushed spacer" thought.
If you used a stronger (steel) spacer, and still torqued it the same as was supposedly crushing alum, all that means is that all that load is now side loading the bearings. How can this be an improvement?
The comments above about HD using a 2 part torque process due to parts being "alloy" is also pretty far off. I assume alloy really means aluminum, but it's incorrect either way.
A 2 step torque, or a torque-loosen a bit-re-torque procedure (like my Uly manual had for rear axle) is used for any bolted joint where a more accurate preload is deemed necessary.
Torque is just out easy way of "measuring" preload, but it is very inaccurate, due to varying friction and many other variables/tolerances.
The 2 step procedure aims to reduce this variation a bit, and is a well understood engineering principle in bolted joint analysis.
Torque to yield bolts (where you have to throw them away after one use, like many cylinder heads, flywheels, etc) are a more extreme example of this. It give you a more accurate preload (joint clamp load) than a simple 1 step torque value.
Measuring bolt stretch or actual joint clamp load force would be best, but is not very practical for most cases.
Anyway, I'm just glad the 2010 wheel has the added external seals, as I am 98% sure that water intrusion is what was killing my rear wheel bearings. They did not look overloaded at all, but had rust in them. |
Motorbike
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2011 - 12:54 pm: |
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Arcticktm, I think that there is some misunderstanding on proper bearing installation procedures here, just as well as there is on the spacer crush issue. If both bearings are pressed all the way into the hub until the outer race bottoms on the machined surface, you will have bearing fail due to side load, no matter what type of spacer you use.
The first bearing installed must be inserted all the way to the machined surface and then the bearing on the other side needs to have both inner and outer races pressed in equally until the inner race just lightly bottoms on the spacer, assuming the spacer is still the proper, factory spec length. If this is done correctly, their will be no side loading or extra pressure on the bearing. If too much force is used when pressing the second side bearing in, you will also crush the aluminum spacer and cause bearing failure. If the spacer is a harder steel material, it is less likely to crush while installing the second side bearing and also less likely to crush when torquing the rear axle.
Oh, by the way, by "second side bearing", I am not referring to the 2010 3 bearing setup. I am referring to the bearing you install after completely seating the first one in the hub. |
Motorbike
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2011 - 06:43 pm: |
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I should also mention that after the first bearing is installed and while the other side is being pressed in, the first bearing must be supported so that both the inner and outer races are perfectly lined up with each other. They both need to be against a flat surface so that they maintain the same plane. If not, the inner race of the first bearing will be pushed sideways slightly and this will cause premature bearing wear due to the side load on it.
This whole procedure must be understood completely if attempting to install your own bearings or you will just be wasting your time and money.
I know all of this has been explained, and probably in better detail, by Al Lighton of American Sportbike. I just don't have time to do a search on it at the moment. |
Hughlysses
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2011 - 06:58 pm: |
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Here's a repost (from the Uly New Owner's section, rear wheel bearings thread) of what Al had to say about the 06-09 rear wheel bearings:
quote:I have spoken with folks at Buell that are quite knowledgeable on all of this, and can provide the following info.
1) The original FAG bearings (black) [comment- used on early XB's] were replaced by NTN bearings that had better seals and less hygroscopic grease. The new KBC bearings have yet again better (stiffer) seals and still better grease. They also have a better lines of communication into the bearing supplier themselves. Bottom line, the change to the bearing isn't just some cost cutting move..they ARE better.
2) The design of the wheel shoulders and internal spacer tube are such that in the worst case tolerance stackup of NEW wheels, bearings, and spacer tubes, the inner race on the bearing OPPOSITE the caliper/rotor will be seated against the inner spacer with just less than 0.5mm clearance between the rear wheel shoulder and the outer race, and just less than 0.25mm on the front wheel. All of this assumes that the bearings are installed correctly (rotor side bearing seated in wheel, spacer installed, opposite bearing installed until inner race seats against spacer tube). What this means is that IF the bearings are installed correctly, AND the spacer tube is not damaged, overtorquing the axle slightly shouldn't cause an inelastic deformation of the spacer tube. If Mongo gets a hold of it and gets brutal with the breaker bar during installation, all bets are off.
3) The bearing installation tool is designed to push on BOTH the inner and outer races in a plane. During installation of the opposite rotor side bearing, if the installation forces are applied to EITHER, but not both, of the races, you can potentially damage that bearing. If you use the old "socket on the outer race with a hammer" method, you'll probably ruin that, and possibly both bearings. You'll likely coin the bearing races, and might damage the spacer, if you seat the outer race against the wheel shoulder on that side. And regardless of the potential bearing damage, if you walk that bearing in which is easy to do with the hammer method, your interference fit of the outer race into the wheel may be compromised. Buell doesn't utilize thermal methods (i.e., hot wheel, cold bearing) for installation, they rely on process control and proper tooling.
4) When a bearing goes more than a little bad, it is possible and likely that the end of the spacer tube can be damaged. In this case, the margins afforded by the design as described in 2) above can be affected. Some bearing removal tools can also damage the ends of the spacer. So inspect that spacer tube with each bearing change.
5) Related to 4, future service manuals may provide for an inspection dimension on that spacer tube. But it isn't there now, so here are the nominals:
Rear Spacer Tube: 202.8 +/- 0.05 mm, 7.984 +/- 0.002 inch
Front Spacer Tube: 107.9 +/- 0.05mm, 4.248 +/- 0.002 inch
Hopefully this is helpful info.
Al
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Motorbike
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2011 - 09:24 pm: |
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Thank you Hughlysses. That is exactly what I was talking about. Have a nice day! |
Tootal
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2011 - 06:22 pm: |
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It boils down to one thing. If your spacer is narrower than the side to side distance of the outside diameter ledges then you will side load the bearing and it will fail. If you want to maintain the spacer without going to steel there is also TITANIUM!! $$$$$$ |
Motorbike
| | Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2011 - 08:05 am: |
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Tootal, that is correct but the same applies if your spacer is longer than the side to side distance of the outside diameter ledges AND the outer race of the second bearing installed is pressed in until it seats against this ledge.
I thought I read somewhere that some machine shop is making steel spacers to replace the aluminum ones but I cannot find it. Steel would probably rust but if it was coated lightly with anti-sieze during installation, I don't think it would be a problem. |
Tootal
| | Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2011 - 07:05 pm: |
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Motorbike, what your saying is true however when you press them in the tool must contact the inner and outer races equally. As you draw it in you will hit on the inner race first, if the spacer is longer of course. This is all that is required. The outer race does not need to bottom out. |
Motorbike
| | Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 08:55 am: |
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Tootal, that is true. I stated that in my March 1, 12:54PM post. I guess the only reason I mentioned the part about the outer race is because I know there are people out there who think they can just hammer both bearings in with a socket and hammer until they bottom out. You and I both know this will not work. Take care.  |
Electraglider_1997
| | Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 10:47 am: |
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I don't profess to know much about bearings but I've never had a wheel bearing failure on any motorcycle I've owned. I've always just used a socket to install bearings and it's worked for me. I even have staked bearings into place with a hammer and screw driver and still no failures. Staking just keeps a bearing in place in a loose hole. When the time comes to change bearings on my 06' wheel, I'll freeze the bearing and heat the hell out of the hub and socket the bearings into place. And I'll probably reuse all the screws that hold the pulley and rotor on. I've never replaced those screws/bolts on any other bike I've had either. I'm still using the same air filter that the bike came with ( wash it once per year ). I've also got the original oil in the bike ( joking ). |
Motorbike
| | Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 11:14 am: |
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Electraglider 1997, you can hammer all your bearings in if you choose, I can't tell you not to. I was just trying to make sure that if someone wanted to know the proper way to install these, they would have a little info. I'm glad you have never had a failure and I hope you never do.
About your oil...maybe you could run it through a piece of screen from the hardware store and just pour it back in?
( joking ) |
Hughlysses
| | Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 11:18 am: |
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EG- Nothing wrong with using pre-heating and pre-cooling to install the bearings, but IMHO using a socket to drive them into place is asking for a premature failure. The socket will work fine for the first bearing, but when you put in the second bearing it will be virtually impossible to seat it properly. Al Lighton knows what he's talking about in the post above. It's not that hard to rig a tool to do the job correctly. You can use large flat washers, all-thread rod and nuts to pull the bearings into place and to seat the second bearing correctly against the spacer. |
Electraglider_1997
| | Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 05:15 pm: |
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Hugh,
When the time comes I'll give the threaded rod and flat washer method a go. Thanks. |
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