| Author | Message | ||
     Hughlysses |
Well, I finally took the time to dig a little further into my Uly's troubles today. Step 1 was to pull the plugs and check the compression in both cylinders. Both plugs looked fine, and both cylinders showed right at 150 PSI. Step 2 was to drain the oil. Looks like Pammy was right- NOT good. Oil plug showing filings on magnet:  The stuff is very fine, but a magnet shows it's definitely steel or iron filings. Based on that, I decided to cut the filter open and see what it looked like. I took a cutoff wheel on my Dremel tool and cut the can off just above the base plate. End of filter element:  Residue off the end of the element:  Side view of filter element:  Residue in bottom of filter can:  Oil/filings from filter on shop cloth:  My guess is the big end roller bearings are toasted. Now I need to figure out whether I want to tear further into this thing or just try to find a decent used engine. I'm just really surprised that this happened to a bone-stock engine that's been well-maintained and ridden reasonably. I'm on the verge of taking back everything good I've said about the air-cooled engine vs. Helicon. Damn, sure not what I wanted to find, and on my birthday at that.  | ||
| Tootal |
Well Happy Birthday Hugh! Sorry to see the metallic nightmare though. Looks just like my friends oil filter that lost it's tappet rollers. The stuff on the drain plug is pretty normal. It's got to be pretty small to get past the filter! If I were you I would rotate the engine and pull the side cover off and inspect the cams and tappets. I you don't find anything there then figure out your next move. You have to rotate it to remove it so why not take it a step at a time. It's your birthday, you might get lucky! | ||
| Hughlysses |
Tootal- thanks for the suggestion. I'd guess there was about 2X the normal amount of filings on the end of the plug. I still had some hope when I pulled that. The filter is a much worse story. I cranked it up yesterday and tried to pinpoint the location of the noise; it seems to be in the bottom end. I can't tell any increase in the noise at the top end of the engine, even with the airbox and baseplate off. On the good side, the noise is not as loud in real life as it sounds on the video. I'm not hopeful, but a bad lifter is the only chance I've got for it being a non-catastrophic failure. I'll try to get motivated to rotate the engine this week, but it'll probably be next weekend before I have time to do it. | ||
| Uly_man |
I would go over that sludge with a magnet to see how much of it is alloy or steel. If the casings are worn then the engine could be dead. If its bearings then thats another matter. Here in the UK picking up a used engine is rare and a re-build costs big time. You will have better luck if your in the US. | ||
| Blake |
Send it to Pammy and Wes. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Marc- the sludge is definitely magnetic and is very fine. There don't seem to be any big hunks anywhere. I haven't drug a magnet through the oil I drained yet but that'll be the next thing I check. Blake- thanks for the suggestion. I'm trying to take a positive view on this thing. I was up at ~1 AM reading threads about upgrading to an 08 crank assembly this morning. Depending on how bad the damage is, I might go ahead and do that. Might as well make it better while I'm in there. | ||
| Cyclonecharlie |
Hugh, I would think that cut-off wheel put a lot of that metal on the filter. Rotate your motor and pull the rocker tops and check for excessive clearance in the valve train, then the cam cover.Don't forget what Mike said about the rear exhaust valve. | ||
| Pammy |
That is catastrophic there. Lifters may be involved now, but that's not where it started. Looks like rod bearing to me. Might be more cost effective to find a low mileage motor. That is a complete tear down right there. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Hugh, I would think that cut-off wheel put a lot of that metal on the filter. Rotate your motor and pull the rocker tops and check for excessive clearance in the valve train, then the cam cover.Don't forget what Mike said about the rear exhaust valve. No, it was pretty clear where the extra shavings from the cutoff wheel appeared. Some of that stuff on the top of the filter element might be from that, but the stuff in the bottom of the can is definitely engine innards. About the possibilty of valve failure- when I ran the engine prior to dropping the oil I couldn't hear any increase in noise from the rockers, and I had the inner and outer airbox covers off. I made a concerted effort to pin-point the location of the noise and it was almost certainly in the crankcase. I'll probably tear it apart anyway, but I am not hopeful at this point. Pammy- thanks for the input. Have you ever seen a rod bearing failure on a bone-stock, not-ridden-that hard, well-maintained, ~30k mile XB before? Damn, we had just been talking in another thread about how the bottom end in these things will last forever. | ||
| Pammy |
Hugh, no I haven't. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, though. | ||
| Pammy |
We have seen some crazy stuff with motors over the years. The reason I think it's a rod bearing is that in the video, I didn't hear any "growling" as if it were the main or pinion. If you can look at the top of the piston (with a camera or scope) you should be able to see where the piston has touched the combustion chamber or valve(s) at some point. Overheating can cause this for whatever reason...timing being off, oil breakdown, etc... Usually if something is installed wrong, it won't take 29K miles to show up. Make sure when you do repair or replace the engine that you flush the oil tank (UGH) and cooler and replace all the oil lines. You can't forget about the peripherals that are involved in the oiling system. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Engine has not overheated (never even gotten hot enough to go into skip spark), I don't think I've ever heard it spark knock before (I know what it sounds like), and I've run Mobil-1 V-twin 20W-50 synth changed at 2500-4000 mile intervals since 5000 miles. Hell, I don't think I've even hit the rev limiter on it, although I'm sure I've come close on occasion. I haven't done anything weird with it lately. I put a new set of tires on it a couple of weekends ago. Did some relatively easy riding around an industrial park breaking the tires in. I'd ridden to work last Friday (~60 mile round trip, mix of interstate and heavy traffic). Went back out for a ride last Saturday morning and thought "damn, the engine seems like it's making more noise than usual". It seemed to gradually get worse over about 50 miles of riding until I was sure something was wrong. Got it home, listened some more, shot the video and played it back and there was no doubt. You do everything right and it breaks anyway. Arrggghhh! The filings from the filter are incredibly fine, about like the metal that's in anti-seize compound. I drug a magnet through the oil tonight; there isn't really that much stuff in it. I'll pour it through a cheesecloth in the next day or two and see what that shows. (Message edited by Hughlysses on February 28, 2011) | ||
| Blake |
Oil pump drive gear? Wondering if it gave out, thus no oil pumping, thus starving the engine of oil. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Don't see how. Oil light has never come on and there were no other weird engine noises and no apparent loss of power. Fan cycled normally upon shutoff after I got home. If there had been no oil flow, engine would have been scorching hot. I did check- I can buy (theoretically at least) a new 07 engine from Chicago HD for only $4595!  (Message edited by Hughlysses on February 28, 2011) | ||
| Buellerxt |
I really feel for you, Hugh, and hope things aren't as bad as they now appear. I remember the thread you referred to on the 'hearty' bottom ends on these bikes. I also remember a recent thread where some told how they were against extended warranties. Mine paid for itself and then some with my Electra Glide and I'm glad I have an extended 5 years on my Uly. Best to you, Man. I'm hoping to read it is found to to something 'much' smaller than that currently being talked about. | ||
| Paul56 |
A co-worker's 05 Sportster with 95k miles (he commutes 130 mi/day) lost the big end bearings rather suddenly, similar to Hughlysses' failure. His bike got regular service and wasn't abused (that I know of, anyway). After tearing it down and hemming and hawing he decided to sell it as is and bought a '10 Triumph Thruxton. I would be looking at the oil pump closely if I decided to repair this engine. Could be it was failing but not totally gone? Tough luck and tougher decision, Hugh. Sorry to hear of it. | ||
| Johnboy777 |
Hey Hugh, I'd be pi$$ed too. But after you’re done whining, tear it down and rebuild it to better than new. You might learn something in the process and it may even be fun..good excuse for some performance improvements. John | ||
| Charlie_zulu |
Curious don't mean to hijack but are there signs of imminent oil pump failure? What do you look for when checking your oil pump? It's winter here and I've got the bike in a heated garage and my mileage is @ 27K. Something to look into before the riding season.? I'm headed to Alaska next year and want to be ready. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Ted- the only semi-common oil pump failure has been the failure of the oil pump drive gear, located on the end of the crankshaft above the oil pump. It happens occasionally on tube-framed Buells and more rarely on pre-2006 XB's. What happens is the gear teeth will wear thin on one side of the gear and eventually break off. This results in instant loss of oil pressure and possibly gear fragments going through the cam gears destroying them in the process. The 06 and 07 XB's upgraded to a bronze drive gear for the oil pump, and I don't believe we've seen a failure of one of those reported. The 08-up Buells went to a new oil pump configuration which does away with this gear altogether. It's not that hard to check. Drain the oil, disconnect the 3 lines from the oil pump, remove the two screws that hold the oil pump, and drop it down out of the engine. Now, take your digital camera and point up in the hole left when you removed the oil pump and snap a photo. Rotate the engine a few degrees (you can put the tranny in 5th gear and do this slowly by hand, remove the spark plugs first if you want). Take another picture. Repeat the process until you've rotated the engine approximately 360 degrees. Download the pics to your computer screen where you can review them at your leisure. If you have a problem, the teeth will show wear on something less than 180 degrees around the gear. IF that's the case, you need to rotate the engine down in the frame, remove the rocker covers to relieve the pressure on the pushrods, remove the right side cover, and replace the gear. There are several threads in the Knowledge Vault on this; here's a good one: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/384 2/297922.html BTW- I'm virtually certain my engine did NOT suffer a loss of oil pressure as the oil light has never come on with the engine running and it still operates normally when starting and stopping the engine. | ||
| Charlie_zulu |
Thanks for the info. | ||
| Pammy |
Hugh, you are in a tough spot my friend. This is what I would do if I were in your position(and I have been there) and if I didn't have a motorcycle shop. I would tear the motor down myself(That's my favorite part...very soothing to me) to CSI the damage. Then, if you aren't looking for more performance, I would spend the bucks on a new motor. The cost will be similar, maybe even cheaper for the new motor and the down time may be less. Or if you have the time and knowledge, you can do some of the work yourself and farm out the more critical work. Also the work that takes specialty tools. Now before I get pounced on by folks insinuating that I am a rip off due to the price. Consider this...all the parts in that motor are well worn and have to be conditioned or replaced. Time is money. A shop can't, or shouldn't, cut corners to save money. Right is right and things have to be brought back up to 100% during a motor rebuild. Now if you are doing this in your garage you can do what you want. A shop has to stand behind what is does/sells. If there is anything I can help you with, by all means let me know. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Pammy, thanks again. The further this thing goes the more I know I'm gonna HAVE to know what happened, so it's gonna be a full CSI. The question of what to do next is what's gonna take some thought. The trouble is I can probably part this Uly out and buy a good used Ulysses for the same or less money than I'll spend fixing this one, even if I just go with a used engine (of questionable history). It seems likely it would cost even more to repair my engine, and more than that to buy a new one. Anything other than buying another bike will eat valuable riding time, so that has to be balanced too. John- you're right, I AM whining about this thing.  I turned 55 years old Sunday but I sure wanted to sit down and cry when I cut that oil filter apart. Decisions, decisions. Can't make one until I know more, so next step is disassembly... | ||
| Scooter808484 |
Wow... feel for you. I know if that happened to me I'd have a real, real hard time spending $4500 on a new engine, since I doubt you could sell the bike for that. Rip into it and see what's busted. If the cases aren't damaged I wouldn't think replacing rods, even the crank would add up to the cost of new. There's lots of Indy guys that work on motors like these all the time. Instead of spending money on a new engine, I'd be out shopping for a new bike, one that won't be running into spare parts issues in a few years. | ||
| Pammy |
Well, Happy Birthday anyway dude. | ||
| Pammy |
"I'd have a real, real hard time spending $4500 on a new engine, since I doubt you could sell the bike for that." I forgot to add that part in. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Yep, I can probably buy a decent running 07 Uly for $4500. What I need to do is find a damn XBRR engine, lower the compression a couple of points, put some milder cams in it, and add a couple of smaller throttle bodies. Uly from hell!!!  | ||
| Blake |
If the low pressure oil light comes on when you turn on the ignition, before cranking the engine, you're likely right, not the oil pump drive gear. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Hugh, Happy birthday. I turned 55 on Jan 30. Time keeps trudging along. Here's three at Dillon Brothers HD/Buell in Omaha NE. Those prices are very negotiable. Tell them what you are willing to give and see what they say. I'm sure they want to unload them for whatever someone is willing to give. They certainly aren't appreciating on the showroom floor. http://www.dillonharley.com/am/listings/l0204.html http://www.dillonharley.com/am/listings/l0040.html http://www.dillonharley.com/am/listings/l0036.html http://www.dillonharley.com/am/listings/ On the last url just use your browser's "find" on "Buell" and see all of the Buells much faster. They've got all types of Buells besides the ULY. The Super TT's they have show $7500 but I know that they will part with them for $5000 and that just gives you some idea how much they will come down. Some other Badwebber got a Super TT from Dillons for 5 grand just recently. Also here is another few ULY's available from across the U.S. on Craigslist and EBay and you can narrow down the search to whatever area or years you are interested in. http://motorcycle.jaxed.com/cgi-bin/mash.cgi?cat=m cy&fil=XB12X&itm=buell&state=&ps=&pe=&ys=2010&ye=2 006&so=d&submit=+GO+ | ||
| Scooter808484 |
Shoot, I used to live in Pawley's Island. I'd sell you mine if I still did. Kind of hankering for something new!! | ||
| Hughlysses |
Scott- wow, you moved just a wee ways away! I've spent a week or two on Pawley's myself. |
