| Author | Message | ||
     Kinder |
So I decided to get a PCV w. Autotune. After doing some research it seems the best way to set this up it to install the autotune then dyno tune it for afr's. This way the Autotune can make changes as needed for weather, altitude, fuel what ever to maintain those afr's. Now the problem is the only tuners in my area are not familiar or comfortable tuning a Buell. (I think they are scared of the bike  ) Anyone wanna give me some AFRs they are running at what rpm? | ||
| Ratsmc |
They aren't actually tuning the Buell, they are tuning the PCV. What could they be worried about? Have they done Aprilia Milles? If so, they can do the Buell. It is just a Rotax motor, nothing magical about it. | ||
| D_adams |
So, it's what, $370 for the tuner, $260 for the auto part, then another $300 for a display, so $930 for the PC5 setup and you still have to mess with it to get it to run right? You do know Erik Buell Racing probably has a map that will work better than anything else out there for $250? Plug it in, go. | ||
| Jules |
I don't think the LCD display is essential so it's "only" $630.. which is still about $380 too much IMHO. For $120 more I'd rather have the tunable Erik Buell Racing ECM... but then again I am happy with my $250 fit and forget version.. | ||
| Jules |
So I decided to get a PCV w. Autotune. Just out of interest - do you mind if I ask why you would pick that over the Erik Buell Racing solution? | ||
| Buelldyno_guy |
The instructions for the Power Commander-V ask you to disconnect the 02 sensors, not too sure how the auto tune would work an a Buell with it's "Learned Fuel" and AFV Functions. We just installed standard one on our race bike, bumped the HP up to 149 and smoothed the A/F curve. Bottom line, our rider won "Open Twins" at The Streets of Willow last weekend and said it has never ran cleaner or better. It tunes just like it was any other race bike using a PC-V and on most DJ wants you to disconnect the 02 sensors. I think this will be our first of choice when tuning any 1125. It will cost a little more than the Erik Buell Racing ECM, but we will offer it as a package including the dyno mapping. It will also give the shop the capabilities of developing and changing custom MAPs if the exhaust or intake configuration changes. terry@jtsperformance.com | ||
| Bueller4ever |
PC5 is under $300 from any reputable tuning shop. Tune should be under $200. You don't need a dyno tune with the auto tune. You should let it tune the bike, then disconnect it. If you google auto tune, you'll see that most users don't recommend leaving it connected all the time. | ||
| Buelldyno_guy |
I worked with a former VP at Dyno Jet and had some input into the return of PC for Buells. He is no longer there, but I still have some direct phone numbers to get questions answered. The biggest one I have on this subject, is which cylinder do you use Auto Tune on, Front or Rear? The 1125 we bought from Erik Buell Racing still has test bungs in the stock header pipe and our dyno has dual live AFR's so I know there is a huge difference between the two. When we tuned the Race 1125 bike we could see and tuned both the front and rear at the same time and in the same heat cycle. Again I have seen and used Auto Tune on HD Baggers and it works as well as the guy using it. But on the 1125 not too sure it's as easy as it is on those other bikes. terry@jtsperformance.com | ||
| Kinder |
*Jules: I'm not planning on using the Erik Buell Racing Exhaust system, I will be getting the stacks and I live at an altitude of 3000+ feet. On top of that we have temp swings of +/- 15deg celcius on any given ride. So with all that plus if I want to experiment with my airbox snorkle and different sized stacks having a set map or even a remote tune map seems sorta silly. The point with the auto tune is once you set the AFR lvl you want it will make changes based on conditions/ parts to meet it. Hence the dyno tune to fine that sweet spot then lock it in. The trick is my dyno/tuner guy has no experience with Buells and thus it gets a bit risky trying to get the most out of it. Different bikes seem to prefer differing AFR's. Ducati 848: 13.2-13.6 R1's: 13.0 Speed Triples: 12.5-12.7 GSXR1000:12.8-13.1 I can't find any for Aprilia but even then while ours is a Rotax its a new design. (Message edited by kinder on February 26, 2011) | ||
| Stevek1125r |
What are your mods....? Pm sent | ||
| Jules |
*Jules: I'm not planning on using the Erik Buell Racing Exhaust system, Thanks Mike - sorry I didn't mean "system" as in "pipe" I meant system as in ECM (my bad I should've explained myself better). I can see that as you want to "experiment" around a good base map (set on a dyno) you'll be leaving the autotune connected all the time and setting it to "base map +autotune settings" I guess. Doesn't the autotune only monitor the front cylinder though? It just seems to me as if your going to trade off the "upgrade" to wideband sensors against the downgrade of only monitoring one cylinder. The stock ECM "learns" (ish) as you ride so I'm still not sure what the benefit of the autotune unit is to you, it'll only learn from one cylinder (attmitedly across a wider rev range) and then adjust the base map.. I think I can see where you're going with this, you have some interesting variables (the different length stacks) so you'll need to spend some dyno time to get the base map tied down.... that explains the PCV part (for me at least) but I'm still not sure about the autotune and whether it adjusts across a broader range than the stock or Erik Buell Racing ECMs.. | ||
| Buelldyno_guy |
I would think that Auto Tune would work best when the 02 bung was at a junction in the Y pipe. That would sense a global reading and make a global change maintaining the front rear offset mapped into whatever ECM you are using. Any other placement would read only the cylinder where installed and make a global change on that single reading. The latest DDFI system used on the 1125 and 2010 XB's corrected issues the single sensor type used on earlier models. Too bad your not closer to us, I am sure we could find some cheap dyno time for someone who wants to figure something like this out. Best of luck, terry@jtsperformance.com | ||
| Ratsmc |
I'm not sure I buy that. How did tuners figure out those number originally? If tuners were afraid to tune a bike they'd never done before, they'd never be able to tune anything. Find another tuner. | ||
| Kinder |
@ Buelldyno guy; I'm planning on getting the newer AT300 unit which has 2 sensors. Rumor has it that even the AT-100 which is for harleys works on ducatis and possibly on all twins. @Jules; No I understood you. I was referring to that the EB racing ECMs seem to be maps they built for a few sets of slip-ons and pump/race gas. So my feeling is if they have differing maps for a jardine can vs a barker then their maps won't necessarily be a match to my set up. @ Ratsmc; I have a Subaru Spec B with up sized turbo and all the toys. My tuner knew that the richest/ ideal AFR it could run at wot was 11. Like all things it's was learned through people pushing the envelope till parts fails and cylinders got melted. Now I can just tell my guy for the Buell to target 14.7 to play it safe or drop to 12.6 or even 11.5. But aside from trial and error you don't know just how rich/lean it can run. That's where an experienced tuner comes in. They know as they have pushed it to far. The found the limits. As of right now not much is out there as far as what our bikes can handle hence he doesn't want to target say 11.2 only for me to start fouling plugs or worse the first time I punish her in the mountains. Maybe I'm wrong here. But knowing what AFR level is to much/ little for our rides would help with creating a base tune for the Autotune to work from. (Message edited by kinder on February 27, 2011) | ||
| Ratsmc |
Tuning a boosted subaru is a lot different from a NA bike. The issue is this: how is it less "dangerous" to set an AFR for the autotune than to set it during tuning? Sure, an extreme will damage the motor but it's pretty easy to avoid those extremes while improving performance. | ||
| Buelldyno_guy |
OK this gets a little complex so try and follow my logic. The stock narrow band sensor tuned "closed loop" to 14.7 from off idle thru steady state cruise. Any ECM that still uses the 02 sensors has several built in safety algorithms that continually monitor engine temp, air temp, rpm, TP and a couple other sensors to prevent obscene things from happening. So when we ran Garrett's DBS configured bike last season we used both the tunable Race Only and Erik Buell Racing ECM's as well as the stock. and found out the bike was rich up on top, but maintained both AFV's to an acceptable value. Last week before his win at Streets of Willow we disconnected the 02 sensors and mapped it to values between 13.2 and 13.4. Remember it's a race bike so it hardly ever see's any steady state throttle position, but those numbers worked for us . We have a few different bikes out there and depending on the exhaust they range from as rich as 12.8 to to as lean as 13.6. The trick is to pick a number, get the curve flat, read the HP and TQ, then just add 3 to 5 clicks of fuel and the see what it likes and go from there. So to shorten this a whole bunch, the control system was designed to operate most of the time at a very lean 14.7, so there should be no issues tuning it to something more in line with a standard 13.5 or around there. I will end this with with a word of caution concerning the airbox. These things don't like us to play around too much there. One of the early warnings we got was to remember they spent serious time and money to get it right as it comes from the factory. Garrett had modified his before we took over and one of the first improvements was to get it back to stock. Sorry about my rambling, again we wish you the best. terry@jtsperformance.com |
