| Author | Message | ||
     Stirz007 |
Jim - I was running stock rotor and it had gotten pretty hot a couple of times last summer, resulting some sketchy braking into Turn 1 at MMP. I just went heavier this time around - I should be able to report back in a couple of months - 1st track day is in April. Still snow on the ground, with more to come. JM | ||
| Jdugger |
Oh, I'm sure you will find it better. I am of the opinion at this point the mounting hardware is actually more important than the rotor in terms of heat dissipation. I have had really good luck with the 5mm fined rotor and new mounting hardware set up. The bolts that come with the Erik Buell Racing kit are really heavy and I had some Ti ones machined up that look surprisingly like the ones on the 1190rs, actually, and weigh a lot less. | ||
| Court |
>>>No one's perfect. Theirs sum knews eye kneaded. | ||
| Admin |
Court, >>> You may not say b*******um. It's like Beetlejuice . . . you say it 3 times and suddenly some guy who is half a lawyer and half an engineer shows up, spouts silliness, then vanishes like the Wicked Witch of the West. >>> Poof. Too funny. Beryllium, beryllium, beryllium! Sorry. I kinda miss the guy. It's fun taking pretend experts to school. JD, >>> A few of the anony posters DO make errors from time to time. No one's perfect. The anony posts in the big rotor debate thread are an example when the vent holes were cited for clearing dust, etc. They are for outgassing. Or perhaps both are true.  For someone who never admits to being wrong, you sure like to try to point out perceived errors of others. Work on your lap times would ya. I suspect you're not braking hard enough.  Blake (accidentally posted under the admin account) (Message edited by Blake on February 23, 2011) | ||
| Jdugger |
Admin, I've been called a lot of things over the years. Arrogant, opinionated, dickhead, etc. The list is long and colorful; Most of them are probably true. But one thing I'm not is such a coward I have to hide behind an anonymous login to make my point. If you want to come show me how to ride, I'd be more than up for the offer. How can I lose, after all? I either learn something and become a better racer, or I confirm you are the scared coward you appear to be. One thing you will learn about novice racers is they tend to be very confident, but also realize where they stand. There's LOTS of guys faster than me. And, I'm pretty OK with that. So, step forward, and for once, don't be such a puss. | ||
| Dannybuell |
Jdugger - ....y | ||
| Ridenusa4l |
i believe the MAIN reason for anon is because: 1) they have a "no talk" policy which if they were caught on a public forum they would either be terminated and/or sued for breaking said agreement 2) MOST people on this forum tend to believe and not question an anon post, where as if they were to post in "person" and cause alot of questioning and drama where as they are right in the first place but no one will believe them 3) a combination of the first 2 i know there are ALOT of other possiblities but when it comes to a VIABLE source then these are what i believe to be common uses of the anon OPTION, i would not call ANYONE a coward for using anon as long as they have a good reason.... no reason for drama, we are all members of the same army...no reason for anyone to go A-WALL, all here for the same reasons now trolls..... t(-_-)t Jake | ||
| Indy_bueller |
Couldn't it be that the groove along the edge is simply to provide more surface area for cooling purposes? | ||
| Jdugger |
> i would not call ANYONE a coward for using anon as long as they have a good reason Do you consider the completely personal post above a good reason? | ||
| Jgarner99 |
But JD, it's got a winking smiley face, so it can't be TOO "completely personal," can it? Just tryin' to add a little levity, bro -- don't go postal on me! | ||
| 2008xb12scg |
could the grooves along the outside be just for wieght savings? Mind you I know nothing of these things, just a thought.. | ||
| Ezblast |
lol | ||
| Ridenusa4l |
i dont see any anon post??? Jake | ||
| Nattyx1 |
Anon told me where I could get some beryllium spray to help with clearing rotor dust and decreasing unsprung weight. But he made me promise not to tell anyone else about it.  | ||
| Jdugger |
> i dont see any anon post??? Admin. > Anon told me where I could get some beryllium spray to help with clearing rotor dust and decreasing unsprung weight. I'll trade it for a time machine, a softer rear tire, and the decision to accept 6th or 7th place in that SBA race instead of pushing it into a crash. It wasn't the brakes that got me. | ||
| D_adams |
Sure it was, it wasn't the front brake though, it was the REAR one. THAT'S what caused it to step out on you and made you crash. You just THOUGHT you were on the gas.  J/K Jim. Pulling your chain some again. | ||
| Blake |
"Admin" is me. I unknowingly accidentally posted from that account. Try to relax and just admit when you make a mistake. It's very liberating. | ||
| Blake |
Jim, Do you really believe that posting on the internet using one's name requires courage or that needing to post anonymously to protect one's employment is cowardly? That's an odd way of viewing the situation. | ||
| Avalaugh |
Well that's the end of another thread, it's now just a wives club for whining.... | ||
| Jdugger |
> that needing to post anonymously to protect one's employment is cowardly? When someone talks big with a personal attack but hides behind a pseudonym, yea, I think it's cowardly. That post contains ZERO proprietary content anyone would need to protect. You stepped up. I don't think that of the post now. > Try to relax and just admit when you make a mistake. What mistake, that I mis-interpreted Steve's post? I thought we put that to bed a long time ago. It's the ONLY thing you have on me in a multi-page thread that demonstrated how little you know or have practical experience with the brake system. You are every bit, absolutely as guilty of anything you are accusing me of as I am. The difference with you is when someone finally pulls your chain hard enough you admin them and shut down their accounts. | ||
| Jdugger |
> J/K Jim. Pulling your chain some again. We're cool and you know it. I'm calling out Blake because he seems to want to continue to drag something up and poke a stick at it. Apparently misinterpreting a Buell employee's post is a larger gaffe than not knowing anything about the practicalities of the brake system but blindly defending them to the point of accusing those with actual experience and data of trolldom. (Message edited by jdugger on February 23, 2011) | ||
| Ysracer |
I gave up reading that thread when the defense veered way off target. See last post here.....: http://www.steelcityriders.com/forums/index.php?sh owtopic=5802 ..... for report of a discussion a friend of mine had with Erik at the Indy show. I am the one he mentioned going thru a set of pads per day. FYI "Rugbymook" is a AMA pro licensed racer, very fast. I think the point deserves to be made again - The ZTL2 brake system, even with upgrades to master cylinder/rotor/mounting kit/pads is not equivalent FOR THE AVERAGE track rider to a typical dual disk setup in terms of ability to shed heat WHICH DOES result in greatly dimished pad life. For me, it's a 4:1 reduction. Please don't repeat the arguments about how well the bike stops or that all the pro teams replace brake components at the same frequency. That is well understood and is not addressing the issue. | ||
| Steve_a |
The 1190RS system is very much improved on brake pad wear and disc life over its predecessors, as well as brake feel, but component life is very, very dependent on how and where the bike is used. A normal quick street rider will likely go thousands or tens of thousands of miles without replacing front pads, even if they ride fairly "hard" by street standards. Take it to Road Atlanta or Road America, the toughest AMA tracks on brakes (Daytona in contrast is fairly easy), put a top rider like Geoff on the machine, and he will use up a good deal of a pad in a grippy compound such as Vesrah's XX during the course of a Superbike race. (There are other pads that will last longer, but require more lever effort; similarly, the XX's will show little wear on a track like Topeka's Heartland Park that's easy on the brakes, and will go at least 4 times the distance at Daytona than Road America, despite the Daytona Turn 1 braking ordeal.) Dual disk systems will generally have less pad wear under the same conditions (pad wear increases exponentially with temperature), but it's also fun to watch Geoff out-brake them if you taped the Speed Channel coverage of the last few 2010 AMA Superbike races. From Geoff's point of view, having a lightweight ZTL system that works consistently on the toughest AMA tracks from beginning to end is the achievement, particularly when you consider the top speed of this machine is likely to push 200 mph on some tracks, and its brake system is dumping about 60 percent more energy than a stock 1125R and its brake system would if ridden equally hard. Meanwhile, Geoff has been able to keep front end traction over sections of the track where competing bikes are losing it, and that has a lot to do with the unsprung weight advantage of the ZTL system. Every system has trade-offs; Erik is making the ones that will win races and provide better handling whether you're on the brakes or not. Also, by building something that will work in these incredibly tough track environments for some of the world's best riders, he's providing street riders with a lot of margin in their brake system. This really is a case of racing improving the breed. And if you're interested, go back and read Don Canet's comments in the brief riding impression of the B2 in the Cycle World "Demise of Buell" issue. Don liked the B2 brake system, though he never had a good thing to say about ZTL before. | ||
| Ratsmc |
Steve, thanks a lot for taking the time to help out here. Having a source of real information is a really unique situation that I'm not sure owners of many other brands have. The CW articles you have written have really put a new face to the rest of the world on what Buell is about. And you've kept us from speculating ourselves into a frenzy. | ||
| Jetbuilder |
I am no Geoff may but I can tell you that at least at VIR and CMP my home tracks With the ZTL1 and a Brembo master cyl and EBC race pads i never had an issue with my XB12 under hard braking. The 1125R with a stock setup and EBC pads its even better. I am a good 250Lb fat ass with gear and push hard enough to slide the front end and have never had a lack of feel or a fade issue Red | ||
| Easyrider |
interesting discussion, we are now developing new brake disc and pads for the XB and 1125 and a new caliper for the front side (-: later more to come.. first test ridings on road and circuit is done as we speak. | ||
| Blake |
Thanks Steve! Nothing better than learning more about the technical issues. JD, What mistake, that I mis-interpreted Steve's post? I thought we put that to bed a long time ago. My bad, I must have missed that. My recollection was that you had defiantly continued to defend your beryllium disk assertion. Good to know you stepped up and admitted it was inaccurate, that the Anony statement accurately refuting it was indeed correct, and that your indignation against the Anony post was misplaced. Don't know how I missed that. Anyway, good on ya for stepping up and admitting that. Sorry I missed it. Now you're attacking me? Huh? For what?  For defending BadWeB policy? LOL! You don't seem to get it. "Proprietary" is not the issue. Some folks risk their job and much more should they merely post publicly concerning a job-related topic on an internet discussion forum. For various reasons, all 100% valid, many related to the litigious nature of our society, that is the reality. I understand that you and others don't like it. The indignation seems excessive. I can hear some scumbag ambulance chasing attorney now "so you KNEW the ZTL brakes tended to get hotter than others; you KNEW the brake pads wore out sooner, yet you said NOTHING, and as a result continued to risk peoples' LIVES!" YSRacer, I think the point deserves to be made again - Actually, not so much. The ZTL2 brake system, even with upgrades to master cylinder/rotor/mounting kit/pads is not equivalent FOR THE AVERAGE track rider to a typical dual disk setup in terms of ability to shed heat WHICH DOES result in greatly dimished pad life. For me, it's a 4:1 reduction. Try to stay focused. This thread is about the new/improved Erik Buell Racing 1190RS front brake system. As Steve so kindly reports above "The 1190RS (ZTL brake) system is very much improved on brake pad wear and disc life over its predecessors, as well as brake feel..." Note that "its predecessors" would include the ZTL-2 and its former racing upgrades. Note the ducted caliper cooling for instance. Please don't repeat the arguments about how well the bike stops or that all the pro teams replace brake components at the same frequency. That is well understood and is not addressing the issue. Right, cause "how well the bike stops" has nothing to do with the brake system. If you're going to continue to harp on the heat dissipation issue, might it be fair to also note that the ZTL system provides for a major reduction in unsprung mass at the front of the bike? Don't want to repeat that either? Nah, let's just bag on the brake pad life? That point "deserves to be made again"? And again, and again, and again...? Ummm, why?  You could mount jumbo-jet airliner disk brakes on a motorcycle and the pads would last longer. The bike wouldn't handle for poo in comparison, but the brake pads would last a hundred times as long; does that point deserve to be made? (Message edited by blake on February 24, 2011) | ||
| Xodot |
Blake said "poo"  (teehee) | ||
| Jdugger |
Ugh. | ||
| Ysracer |
Double Ugh. The point was made simply because you wanted to attack Jdugger for something totally unrelated to the point he was trying to make in the other thread, and that thread veered far from his factually correct assertion, evidenced by the improvements Erik Buell Racing has made. Those improvements will be especially appreciated if the components will be available to us. So, the rest of the world uses jumbo jet brakes on their bikes. So, that's how they get them to last ? Really ? Wow ! Interesting ! Thanks ! Shame they don't handle worth a shit with those big honkin' things on them. Can't say I've ever noticed it, though. Pass me some Kool-Aid,please. My last dose is, apparently, wearing off. |
