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Stimbrell
| | Posted on Friday, January 28, 2011 - 05:26 pm: | 
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Doing so justification for revocation of posting privileges.
Sorry, what does that mean?
Edit: You know what, I have bad days too.
(Message edited by stimbrell on January 28, 2011) |
Thefleshrocket
| | Posted on Friday, January 28, 2011 - 06:16 pm: |
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I didn't realize that Blake disapproved until now, when I noticed that my posts had been deleted. Sorry about that! |
Bwbhighspl
| | Posted on Friday, January 28, 2011 - 08:40 pm: |
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Are links to archived copies of the Buell website considered links to pirated documents? Those archive sites don't own the material. |
Davegess
| | Posted on Friday, January 28, 2011 - 09:04 pm: |
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The whole archive web site deal is strange. It would seem to be a clear violation of copyright but so far no one has taken any public action. Interesting. |
Thefleshrocket
| | Posted on Friday, January 28, 2011 - 09:16 pm: |
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I think pirated implies distributing items that have copyright ownership and retail value without giving appropriate royalties. I personally don't think there is anything wrong with redistributing for free materials which were previously available for free, especially when the copyright owner doesn't object.
What if Erik himself said he had no problem with the website info being distributed? He might not technically own the copyright, but I think most of us can agree that in spirit, he has more right to dictate how it is distributed than Harley does. |
Bwbhighspl
| | Posted on Friday, January 28, 2011 - 10:09 pm: |
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Here's the action on the archive sites:
http://www.out-law.com/page-7535
Erik doesn't own the copyright. Harley does. They paid him to make it, so they own it.
(Message edited by bwbhighspl on January 28, 2011) |
Thefleshrocket
| | Posted on Friday, January 28, 2011 - 10:27 pm: |
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Yes, I realize that Harley owns the copyright. But in all honesty, how many people on this forum really care about doing right by Harley when it comes to copyright? Sure, if Harley's lawyers threaten to sue then don't risk ending up in court, but if Harley doesn't care or doesn't act, then what's the problem?
Harley certainly has plenty of attorneys on staff and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if there are a few people on the Harley payroll who periodically browse this forum. My point? If Harley has a problem with the Buell website materials being redistributed, I'm sure it will speak up. |
Crmike
| | Posted on Saturday, January 29, 2011 - 09:06 pm: |
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Thank you Hybridmomentspass, I just purchased a set of Clubman bars from American Sportbike. They were about half as much as advertised on the Buell website.
My 09 CR came pre-owned with 1200 miles on the clock and high bars, but I thought Clubmans were stock on 09 and later?? I was thinking perhaps the previous owner got the high bars.
Anyways, can anyone tell me what the Clubman bars feel like? Do they feel like the 1125R riding position or are they more forward and lower? Thanks. |
Brumbear
| | Posted on Saturday, January 29, 2011 - 09:23 pm: |
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exactly the same position as the 1125R with the clip ons |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Saturday, January 29, 2011 - 11:47 pm: |
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Harley did not "pay Erik" to make the website. They made it. So they can close it, just like they closed Buell. Perhaps H-D will let info on how to maintain your Buell etc. be posted elsewhere so these customers can have access, even if H-D doesn't want to pay to keep the site up. Or I guess they could decide to punish customers... I guess we'll know more about the company depending on how they treat such stuff. |
Court
| | Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2011 - 08:44 am: |
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>>>how many people on this forum really care about doing right by Harley when it comes to copyright?
Interesting.
Just my personal experience, based on my 41 years in the construction business, would dictate that honesty and character tend to be universal attributes.
In other words, I've seem few people who are willing and able to do something illegal and/or unethical at work and then be totally honest and honorable at home.
Many people talk about "well, they're a big company, they have the money, it won't hurt them".
That's rationalization.
Character, like The Force, tends to pervade and be made manifest in each component of a person's life.
I could be wrong, but have seen no evidence to weaken my position yet. |
Jules
| | Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2011 - 09:45 am: |
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That's probably accurate , I've never particularly sat back at rationalised my actions but there are definately some people/organisations who fall into the "f*ck them" pile.
People are complex, it's rare that you find a black & white "good" person or an all out "bad" person, most people consist of shades of grey, some lighter than others, some complete with their own sliding scale.
I have no particular issue with the whole "screw HD they deserve to have copywright material stolen" concept, I think they're a complete bunch of money-grabbing t*ssers who deserve everything they get.
I realise that this ability to rationalise immoral acts probably means I am not a "good" person, but TBH I can live with that, on the whole I am more "good" than "bad" but life is just more complex than "do a bad thing and you're automatically a bad person"
On the other hand i suspect i have some sociopathic tendancies anyway so stealing from HD is the least of my worries.. |
Court
| | Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2011 - 09:52 am: |
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I'm right there with you . . . |
Imonabuss
| | Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2011 - 11:42 am: |
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The right thing to do would be to ask H-D if you could post the customer info that used to be on Buell.com. Ask for stuff that really matters and that you might get an OK to do. Like recall info or tech tips, or maybe even manuals. Things that really would help out an owner and that they used to offer for free. I don't even know what all was on there, but it is their property so you should ask. Even offer to pay a small amount. If they care about the customers, they might agree. |
Jdugger
| | Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2011 - 12:16 pm: |
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Most of the information on the bike itself you could post by making it yourself.
For example, for specifications: Measure the sag, measure the amount of oil for a correct fill, measure the fork length, ride height, etc. Measure the wheelbase yourself, etc.
If you collect that data on your own, it's yours to use as you please.
You could do the same for procedures by creating/documenting your own. A great example are wheel changes where there's probably a dozen different "right" ways to do it.
Most of the torque specs on this bike are consistent with regular recommendations for fasteners in any application, so far as I can tell. (18-20 for M8, etc.)
Even operational stuff, if you DISCOVER IT YOURSELF, can be published without HD's input or control. You just can't say they are Buell directions. They are YOUR directions for the Buell 1125r.
I know it seems nuts to go write your own manuals, but it is one way to get around, both legally and morally, the copyright restrictions of the HD ones.
If you are up for it, I'd be happy to contribute a chapter or two. I can handle wheels, brakes, run out measurements and so on. Lord knows I do them enough, I know it by heart. And, my procedures are unique from that in the service manual. (mostly they are just faster, with a slightly higher risk of minor cosmetic damage to the bike) |
Bwbhighspl
| | Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2011 - 12:52 pm: |
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Jdugger -
What you describe is the following:
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Cle an_room_design
It is legal. That's how different businesses create a design "similar" to an existing one, without getting in trouble.
Like Chinese shifting levers. |
Davegess
| | Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2011 - 01:05 pm: |
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Facts are not copyrightable. If you post specs as long as you don't copy the way they were presented you are OK. |
Thefleshrocket
| | Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2011 - 02:03 pm: |
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Court, you're blurring the line between immoral and illegal. Speeding is illegal but can hardly be considered immoral in most situations.
While reposting the Buell website content may technically be illegal on the basis of copyright violation, I doubt many people would consider it immoral to freely repost information that was, up until recently, freely distributed by the copyright owner, and especially considering that the copyright owner has not made any request that the information not be reposted.
I have no problem justifying violating laws that criminalize actions that aren't immoral. Someone who follows the law when it comes to avoiding immoral acts is probably a person of good moral fiber. Someone who unquestioningly follows all laws regardless of the justification behind them would be more aptly described as a robot or automoton. |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2011 - 05:28 pm: |
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I think Court was speaking to the pirated service, parts and electrical manuals.
If it was offered free of charge and provided online to the public or Buell owners, I'd not object to hosting it.
If H-D would allow it, we'd happily host the entire former Buell site on the BadWeB server.
Sure would be nice to be able to host the factory PDF versions of the shop manuals too. When I get home, I'll write some letters. |
Thefleshrocket
| | Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2011 - 06:21 pm: |
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Oh, okay. I thought he was referring to the Buell website content. I don't think anything that was sent to me was for sale--I've just got the owners manuals (not shop manuals) and PDFs of the Fuell magazine.
Actually now that I think about it, Fuell was probably a subscription mag, but since it is no longer produced and presumably not available from Harley (free or paid), I don't think there should be a moral problem redistributing it's old copies.
Is Harley still selling the shop manuals? If not then I think that would make something of a case for hosting them in PDF, with Harley's permission of course. I haven't needed a shop manual yet so I never purchased one. Quite frankly I'd rather have it in PDF so I don't have a big manual to lug around and so I can print off just what I need when working on the bike and not worry about it getting dirty.
That said, if Harley is sticking true to it's claim that it would provide parts for Buells for 7 years, then the manuals still should be available for purchase. |
Court
| | Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2011 - 06:59 pm: |
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All manuals were, are and will be available.
Blake, smart move. Write and I'll bet you will have good results. Seems like a perfect win-win deal.
I'll drop you a note. |
Thefleshrocket
| | Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2011 - 09:24 pm: |
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Court, where are the owners manuals available online? The Bwb links are broken. |
Tippster
| | Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2011 - 11:13 pm: |
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They're not. You have to order them from a dealer.
Owners' Manuals should be free, IMHO, since they come included with every purchase - unfortunately for me the previous owner was a slacker and "lost" it.
Service manuals should be for sale. |
Zac4mac
| | Posted on Monday, January 31, 2011 - 09:32 am: |
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All the manuals are still available thru H-D, none have been obsoleted.
MSRP is 60 bucks for each now IIRC, FSM, Electrical Diagnostic and Parts.
If the Owners Manuals are the same, H-D ones are 20 bucks each to order.
For used bikes, our Sales Dept usually pays for one if it's missing...
Zack |
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