| Author | Message | ||
     Jdugger |
> Cool. How about for Geoff May and Harold and the Pegasus Team in Germany? Or Danny Eslick in 2009? Man, go ask them what they think. Don't ask me what I think they think. I don't ride at that level of skill. I do know, however, because it was posted here, that Eslick's bike had custom, one-off rotors with more beryllium in the alloy. I know that because Michael posted it here. | ||
| Tippster |
Those Starfires seem like they would cost more than the damn bike! | ||
| Slaughter |
Starfire IS pricey but they work. I think a rotor is gonna be something on the order of $3500 but if heat IS your issue, Starfire is the answer. I don't see ventilating as a practical solution to these thin rotors - Cars and trucks? yes, sport/race bikes? Nope | ||
| Jdugger |
> My stock ZTL 2 brakes stop on the the dime at the end of the 1/4 mile. Littlebutquick swapped out his ZTL2 caliper for a regular ZTL caliper. Saves some unsprung weight. | ||
| Sparky |
Re vented rotors, I've got pics of the ALMS Corvettes coming down the corkscrew with front rotors glowing brightly! Yes, heat is an issue but dealing with it effectively is where racing provides the ultimate research lab to improve the design. | ||
| Anonymous |
Eslick's bike did not have custom rotors with "more beryllium in the alloy"! That is ridiculous. Where does this crazy crap come from? | ||
| Puzzled |
When I inquired about composite rotors. _________________________________________ We can offer the Sicom.006 kit at $2,816.28 and the Sicom.010 at $3,002.48 You can expect these rotors to be ~one quarter the weight of a std. metal rotor. I will get you some exact weights soon. H. Armstrong www.MS-ProductionCompositeTechnology.com Ph: 518.633.1939 EEMS, LLC Affiliate Company PO Box 2351 Wilton, NY 12831 | ||
| Jersey_thunder |
Eslick's bike did not have custom rotors with "more beryllium in the alloy... IT DID SO !!! elves forged it from berries from the beryllium bush... LMFAO !!!! | ||
| Court |
Eslick's brakes . . . as I recall (and a couple folks here will know) were pretty much bone street stock. | ||
| Blake |
>>> Where does this crazy crap come from? It's misinformation aimed at Chinese spies. Play along. | ||
| Jdugger |
Eslick's brakes were no where near bone stock. He was using, at a minimum: * Performance Friction brake pads * 5mm finned rotor * Erik Buell Racing hardware upgrade kit For what it's worth, one of Eslick's wheels is on my race bike now. In this thread, Steve_a confirms Eslick's preference for the Performance Friction pads: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/disc us.cgi?pg=next&topic=158664&page=512001 I'm looking for the comments on the custom rotor, may take me a bit. | ||
| Jdugger |
Found it. Third post in this page, by Steve a (not Michael) that discusses DIRECTLY the improvements made to the stock braking system that were used by Eslick including the upgraded rotors. http://badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290431/ 571747.html?1276217787 | ||
| Aseecobra |
Here is a pic from the NJMP AMA race in September 2010.  | ||
| Zacks |
Bit off the topic, but I seem to remember quite a while back a Kevin Cameron column discussing beryllium copper in plain bearings on race bikes. I think it was either banned from use or stopped being used because of the cancer causing potential. Basically, the statement was something along the lines that if you were following a bike so equipped, you were (potentially) breathing in bad stuff from the exhaust. I'd think that making brake rotors with the alloy would have more potential for material to be removed and putting dust in your wake than a bearing riding in an oil bath. Just more incentive to get in front and stay there I guess. OTOH, I could be all wrong on all points. | ||
| Zac4mac |
Radios I worked on in the Navy had power tubes using Beryllium Oxide insulators and the instructions said dust from the ceramic was dangerous. Dunno if that applies to metal alloys also. Zack | ||
| Jdugger |
Aseecobra, That's a great picture! Thank you for that. From it, I can determine a couple of things: 1. The bike is clearly using a finned rotor. 2. The bike is using the new mounting hardware featuring a belleview washer on the outside, and copper heat-sink washer between the wheel and rotor. And, check out that rotor! Ladies and gentlemen, you are looking at a fine piece of Grade-A, 100% pure Unobtanium right there. I've seen this picture (or one like it before) and wondered about *this* particular model of finned rotor. They aren't for sale or available anywhere I know, and they sure aren't stock. | ||
| Anonymous |
Brake rotors like that are available from Erik Buell Racing, although not cataloged yet, like a lot of stuff we have. There is not one iota of beryllium in them. Beryllium is one of the greatest "lubricating" metals and would be at the bottom of the list of alloying materials in a brake rotor! The metal in all the rotors is the same. These rotors in fact are exactly the same as the 5mm finned ones with holes, except machined with grooves instead of holes. Slightly better for wiping water, braked dust, etc. off the surface. Learned this from car brake rotor people. Not exactly rocket science and not unobtanium!!! If you can turn the same lap times as Geoff, May...be you need them. Oh and they will be stock on 1190RS. | ||
| Court |
>>>Brake rotors like that are available from Erik Buell Racing, although not cataloged yet, like a lot of stuff we have. That's accurate . . . I've seen'em. >>>There is not one iota of beryllium in them. That's accurate. It would be poor engineering. >>>Not exactly rocket science and not unobtanium!!! That's a bit misleading and tends to under-represent the tremendous about of engineering, well over a year, that went into the Erik Buell Racing rotors. >>>Oh and they will be stock on 1190RS. That's accurate . . . I've seen'em. Race parts . . . . like oil . . tend to the be subject of some impassioned, yet inaccurate representations. | ||
| Jdugger |
Fair enough. Quit being coy and show your real name. Steve Anderson has real credibility and posted up here. He worked for Buell. If he's in the wrong, well so am I, because I got my data from there. Let's understand exactly WHO this anonymous person is. I want to see credentials. I know a lot of the guys at Erik Buell Racing, so if it's really them, I'm more than happy to eat crow. | ||
| Jdugger |
> That's accurate. It would be poor engineering. I'm not a mech-E, but a simple Google search for Beryllium Brake Disc returns more hits than Pete Rose. The concept of Beryllium alloys in brake rotors has been around for a long time in a lot of applications. I'm not saying it's state of the art, just that from the number of places it's been used over time, it doesn't appear to be "poor engineering". | ||
| Dannybuell |
"poor engineering"? IDK. He is what he is, subject matter experts will always have the last word. | ||
| Lawineer |
I was forwarded this discussion, and I just felt the need to comment here. I am a degreed engineer, and I've worked for an automotive company designing brakes. I've also worked for a racecar company. Let's start with the basics. The brake design in question is most definitely an interesting and unique design, but it certainly has it's ups and downs. Assuming all else equal (bike weight, suspension, speed, etc), you're converting the same amount of kinetic energy into heat energy. Now you need to think of rotors as a heat sink. A better analogy might be a water tank with an inlet and an outlet. Water coming in is the heat energy going into the rotor. The size (mass) of the rotor is the size of the water tank (1 gallon vs 2 gallons and etc) and the outlet is its cooling capability. The inlet is the same- same bike being stopped from the same speed, conservation of energy, same amount of heat energy going into the tank. Heat leaves through the air, on the surface of the rotor. With a 2 rotor design, you have have twice the surface area because you only have one rotor. (maybe a bit less than double since the Buell design has a larger circumference). So in effect, the Buell only has one drain out the bottom of the water tank while a 2 rotor design has 2 drains, allowing water (heat) to leave faster. The size of the rotor isn't as important (kinda). If you're flowing 2 gallons/hr in and 1 gallon/hr out, it doesn't matter how big the tank is- it's going to overflow. The only difference is how long till it overflows- 1 lap or 3 laps? So the single rotor design just can't cool itself off like a dual rotor design. This isn't really even a debate, it's just simple physics and maybe a bit of not so simple heat transfer simplified for you. Perhaps some of you riders aren't creating more heat than it can "drain," but that's not to say that isn't the case for a competent rider on a track. Whoever said Beryllium is only for lubricating is flat out uninformed. I don't know what the race rotors were or weren't made out of, but whoever is claiming it's poor engineering or only a lubricant is full of it. Beryllium was in F1 pistons before it was banned, and I assure it wasn't a motor oil substitute. The stuff is just horrifically bad for you, from being a carcinogen to a number of other things. edit: Also, the cross drilling and/or slots aren't for cleaning off dirt. They're for out-gassing. When pads outgas, the gas will get caught between the rotor and pad. They also have a bonus of making rotors lighter, but it comes with the detriment of reducing surface area and thermal mass (the size of the water tank), making the rotor far more prone to warping (which isn't that big of an issue on a bike for a number of reasons), and reduced pad life. (Message edited by Lawineer on January 16, 2011) | ||
| Court |
>>>Whoever said Beryllium is only for lubricating is flat out uninformed. You were misinformed. No one said that. >>>Beryllium was in F1 pistons before it was banned That is correct. The aircraft industry started to retire beryllium brakes in the 1980s in favor of carbon brakes. The Space Shuttle followed suit in 1990 with the launch of Discovery on STS-31. Formula 1 banned them starting with the 1998 season. >>> to a number of other things. Nearly all of which result from the grinding process involved in making rotors. Welcome . . you will be in good company. The fellow who wrote the post about the Beryllium is similarly a degreed engineer, the fellow who wrote the prior post is an Engineering graduate from M.I.T. and the fellow who did a significant part of the thermal design was did his graduate work at Cal Berekley and wrote, as his thesis, on the dynamics of two wheeled single track vehicles. His book on Finite Elements design is still used in top engineering schools. And . . to round it out Blake, who started Badweb, is a degreed engineer who was deeply involved in the structural design of the B2 bomber. Being and engineer . . you'll love it here and you'll feel right at home. You may get some feedback on your "one rotor vs. two" comments above. Some of the best practice and principles in auto brakes don't translate well to 2 wheeled vehicles. Funny engineer story to that you'd enjoy . .I was in a robust debate with a young fellow here a couple years ago . . he was very sharp. At one point I asked him "what the heck are you a rocket scientist?" . . to which I got the sheepish reply "yes sir, I work for NASA". He did and he was REALLY sharp . . we had him moved to Wisconsin and working at Buell within months. Welcome aboard. Here's an interesting blurb from one of the premiere books on race car design . . not sure if it's applicable to motorcycles.  P.S. - Every reference I find with regard to the use of Beryllium in braking systems is in the pistons and calipers, not the rotors. It also seems like the most common product now is not pure Beryllium but rather the AlBeMet alloys being produced by Brush Wellman. There is a lot of interesting information in the Reference Data section of their website under Properties and Beryllium. http://www.berylliumproducts.com/UsesDescriptions. aspx The good news . . to conclude is that the Buell brakes have proven to be among the most effective in the AMA (and in the Sound of Thunder series in Europe) just as they are. | ||
| Jdugger |
This is way off track. 1. Heat is a major problem in the ZTL2 system at even club racing levels unless upgraded components are used. That's a fact. You don't need to be Geoff May to ride above the stock ZTL2 system, you need to merely be as good as me, a mid-pack novice club racer. That was the whole point of this thread originally, and it remains a fact. The ZTL2 system HAS HEAT PROBLEMS. Period. 2. None of the Erik Buell Racing bikes are using stock ZTL2 components. 3. Anonymous -- who should quit being a puss and post up using his/her name -- would have us believe Steve Anderson, a former platform director at Buell, didn't know what he was talking about when he suggested that the B2 production parts would be "literally [had] rotor mounts and rotor that were essentially identical in form to Danny's, though there was a little less beryllium in the production parts." I can't confirm either way, but find it endlessly amusing even reasonable authorities that should be in the know are having their facts checked. 4. Court would have us believe that one of the anony posts was Abraham Askenazi, a former Buell engineer and now an engineer for Zero motorcycles. Hey, if Abe wants to post here, I'm sure he would be welcome to, and he need not hide behind anonymous posts to do so. Welcome Abe, if that's you! 5. Beryllium or not in the Buell, apparently the Porsche 910 program used them for rotors, so Court, here's a reference for you (not sure what it's worth): http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z9188/Porsche-9 10.aspx What I take away from this thread is really two things: 1. The ZTL2 system is still heat prone and still needs upgrades for even modestly talented track riders. Of course, I knew that coming in, so there's not much net gain for me. 2. I am tremendously suspicious of anonymous posts, in both accuracy of information and claims of association made by the posters. | ||
| Froggy |
J, I can assure you the annony is legit and knows what they are talking about. Is Steve or the annony is correct? I couldn't answer, but both of them have impressive resumes and other qualifications. | ||
| Court |
>>>>Court would have us believe that one of the anony posts was Abraham Askenazi You read very poorly. Abe never posted here and will not. He was one of the key engineers in the design of the ZTL2 brake system. The new poster placed some value in being a degreed engineer. The only point I was making was that the braking system, as many would have you believe, was not designed by some kids hanging out in a garage. There were some of the top engineers in the world working on the system for well over a year. | ||
| Jdugger |
Court, You wrote "The fellow who wrote the post about the Beryllium is similarly a degreed engineer, the fellow who wrote the prior post is an Engineering graduate from M.I.T. and the fellow who did a significant part of the thermal design was did his graduate work at Cal Berekley and wrote, as his thesis, on the dynamics of two wheeled single track vehicles." The second guy in your description above sure meets the resume of Abe... or are there three people being described in this prose? The 'and' is not explicit. I never suggested the ZTL2 wasn't a good brake. I said, simply and accurately, it's heat prone. That fact still remains true. I've got rotors a plenty to prove it. Degree or no degree, this redneck from Texas is nowhere near as good a rider as Geoff May but DOES NEED upgraded components or will face brake failure. (Message edited by jdugger on January 17, 2011) | ||
| Jdugger |
> J, I can assure you the annony is legit and knows what they are talking about. Great, then there's no issue with them posting up using a public credential. | ||
| Court |
>>>>The second guy in your description above sure meets the resume of Abe... It was indeed Abe. You said "Court would have us believe that one of the anony posts was Abraham Askenazi," Which may have mislead someone to think I said that. I didn't. Off to monitor tire testing . . . have fun and keep those brakes cool! | ||
| Lawineer |
>>>Some of the best practice and principles in auto brakes don't translate well to 2 wheeled vehicles. It's just physics, 1 wheeled or 18 wheeled. |
