| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
Jim, What model Honda are you endurance racing? You use stock pads? | ||
| Court |
>>>That's a bad habit to adopt. Particularly in view of the fact that there are better than a dozen folks with bonafide Anonymous posting rights . . . | ||
| Blake |
Very interesting discussion though. Question for discussion: If impediment to cooling airflow is an issue for the ZTL caliper in racing applications, why not simply move the caliper to the other side of the fork so that it not only sits ahead of the fork tube, but puts the caliper opening facing forward and into the oncoming cooling airstream? Some free body diagrams roughly illustrating the forces acting on the lower fork and caliper assembly. Applied loads from axle and brake disk are shown in blue; internal loads (reactions) at the fork tube are shown in red...  Normal ZTL Configuration  Forward-Mounted Caliper Configuration (Message edited by blake on January 11, 2011) | ||
| Blake |
Hint... There is a pretty good reason why the caliper is located behind the fork tube. | ||
| Sprintst |
care to share? | ||
| Court |
>>>Hint... There is a pretty good reason why the caliper is located behind the fork tube. Duh . . . pardon me . . I'm a construction workers . . but I've spent enough time on the handle of a 5' shovel to see that even minimal braking force would snap the strongest forks ever made. Gosh . . am I on the right track? | ||
| Tippster |
I'm assuming that if it partially fails it is still held by the tube and lets you stop...? | ||
| Jdugger |
> You sure about that? I'm pretty sure. It's less to do with airflow and more to do with the mass of the rotors themselves. It's no secret the Buell braking system weighs less. That's one of it's advantages. The single rotor, while bigger, also weighs less. But having less mass means it takes less energy to get it to a critical temperature. This is the same reason you see the 6mm rotor for sale, and the 5mm *finned* rotor. The 5mm rotor needs the cooling assistance of the fins to thermally perform as well as the 6mm rotor, which has the simple advantage of more material and heat handling capability. | ||
| Jdugger |
If getting more air to the caliper and rotor is your goal, here is the answer:  But that, as a single solution, won't do the job. You still need the other solutions I've talked about (caliper, rotors, mount hardware, etc.) at the higher levels of riding skill to avoid brake problems. | ||
| Court |
Harald Kitsch dominated the European Sound of Thunder series . . as I recall he had a sufficient point\s lead to capture the season title with 2 or 3 races remaining. Just curious . . . what rotor and caliper did he substitute to overcome the problems of the ZTL and enable him to trample the Ducatis and other competitors? | ||
| Jdugger |
> What model Honda are you endurance racing? > You use stock pads? We are racing a 2003 Honda CBR600RR. I *think* we are using stock pads, but I'd have to talk to the team mechanic (one of our riders is a superb wrench, so he sets us up) to know for sure. I'm sure we will move to a race pad since those are generally available track side and stock aren't. I know for sure it's stock rotors/wheel, stock brake lines (rubber!), regular DOT4, etc., cause I did the set up on that stuff after we rebuilt the bike. Up until a couple of weeks ago, it was a stock MC, too, but then I got taken out while instructing in level 2 at a track day, and we decided to use my old Buell MC instead of the Honda one since I have lots of spare levers and keep them with me. The Honda's brakes aren't as good as my ZTL system, but my ZTL system is a Brembo RCS19, SS lines, 5mm finned, EB-R brake hardware w/ titanium bolts, ZTL2 and Vesrah pads, so significantly upgraded. Compared to stock, I'd say the Honda is better. The Honda system didn't seem to get as hot, either, but then again, I'm a decent bit faster on the Buell (3 seconds or so at my home track) and it weighs just as much or more, so the Buell is doing a fair bit more braking work. | ||
| Jdugger |
> Harald Kitsch dominated . . . what rotor > and caliper did he substitute to overcome > the problems of the ZTL Well, based on pictures and internet lore (  ), this is what I believe was done: * ZTL 2.5 Caliper (additional machining and some higher quality pistons to increase airflow and heat tolerance) * 5mm finned rotor * Erik Buell Racing rotor mounting kit with copper heat-sink washers * An air duct like the one pictured above for additional cooling air * Race fluid I think those guys hang out here, so why not ask? | ||
| Blake |
Jim, >>> But that, as a single solution, won't do the job. You still need the other solutions I've talked about (caliper, rotors, mount hardware, etc.) at the higher levels of riding skill to avoid brake problems. That looks like a stock caliper. The Geoff May bike had no such ducted cooling. Explain The most significant weight savings is in the lighter wheel. (Message edited by blake on January 11, 2011) | ||
| Blake |
Three seconds slower... To be expected. Makes a difference in brake duty as you note. >>> Well, based on pictures and internet lore ( : ) ), this is what I believe was done: Pegasus replaced the brake system on the 1190R-B? Huh? I think they added the duct is all. | ||
| Jdugger |
> That looks like a stock caliper. The ZTL 2.5 that's specified as standard on the 1190 is a regular ZTL2 caliper that's been put in the mill. So, it would look bone stock since the changes are on the inside of the caliper, such as what you would see if you split it to service it with fresh seals and pistons. (as I have to do every couple of sets of brake pads.) Other than a confirmation from someone in the know, I'm not aware of a way to tell the difference visually between a 2.5 and a regular 2 without looking at it radially. Geoff's bike clearly has the 5mm rotor and updated mounting kit, that's easy to see. And, he's using a racing MC (confirmed here by Michael in that thread about him crashing out to avoid hitting pegram he's not stock) and good fluid, I'm sure. I'm speaking from practical experience here. You do need to upgrade the ZTL2 system's components at even club racing levels. The dang thing gets hot and fades if you don't. I'm really not trying to bash Buell or talk shit. This is just practical experience with the system I've had. I've got 4,000 laps at ECR, a rather braking oriented track, worth of experience to let me know I'm on to something here. The ZTL system has heat problems and needs upgrades. Sorry, but it's true. | ||
| Jdugger |
> Pegasus replaced the brake system on the 1190R-B? Huh? The 1190RR ships with high end components that are upgrades from a stock 1125r. * ztl 2.5 * 5mm finned rotor * mounting kit with copper heat sink washers * Race MC Based on the pictures, I can absolutely confirm the latter three items on the Pegasus bike. | ||
| Blake |
So what you are saying is that the ZTL-2.5 braking system like provided on the Erik Buell Racing machines does not suffer "huge heat problems"? So what we have over the period from 2007 to 2010 is an evolution from ZTL, to ZTL-2, to ZTL-2.5 and even on a 190 HP machine, no front brake heat problems, at least not any that prevent winning a championship against the likes of Ducati 1198R machines? Sounds amazingly successful for a newly implemented Superbike front braking system that saves multiple pounds in front end unsprung mass. | ||
| Jdugger |
Blake, you are quite the fanboy! I admire your commitment to the brand. I've not personally ridden a bike equipped with the ZTL2.5 caliper, so I can't speak for that. But, I can say: I went from a braking system that would literally fail within 5-6 laps (OEM ZTL2 system) to one that actually improves in effectiveness at the hottest temperatures I am able to sustain as a novice level club racer. The components, in order of importance in my opinion, that made the biggest difference: 1. Motul RBF600 Fluid -- change it often, too. 2. Erik Buell Racing Rotor Mounting Kit w/ Copper washers 3. 5mm Finned Rotor 4. Brembo RCS19 MC If you look at my take off rotors TODAY vs. a year ago, the difference is dramatic. A year ago, I'd shag a rotor to the point of being BLACK around the edges. I went through a good handful of stock rotors, too. Today, even though I'm probably a good 5-8 seconds a lap faster, I get the thing golden all around the edges and mount points, and up to blue and purple everywhere else and black on the fins only. It made a huge difference. They are absolutely essential upgrades to the ZTL2 system in my opinion. | ||
| Blake |
>>> Blake, you are quite the fanboy! I admire your commitment to the brand. What would you call someone who said the following?
I'm no fanatic. I admire the work of Erik and his associates and the incredible new technology they've brought to the market. So I'll ask again... So what you are saying is that the ZTL-2.5 braking system like provided on the Erik Buell Racing machines does not suffer "huge heat problems"? Is that a yes? | ||
| Blake |
Back to the cooling airflow idea... The answer to my earlier question, the one followed by the diagrams of loads acting on the normal and a reversed version of ZTL braking...
Honestly I'm not 100% certain. I'd have to run an actual analysis, but I strongly suspect that moving the caliper to the front might cause some serious issues with front end stability as the fwd mounted caliper would significantly increase the mass moment of inertia about the steering axis, which would reduce its natural frequency of oscillation, akin to lengthening the shaft of a pendulum. Interesting discussion! (Message edited by blake on January 12, 2011) | ||
| Jdugger |
> Is that a yes? For me as a club racer now, it is. As I've always said in this thread, the ZTL2 system is heat prone, and upgrades remedy those problems. Heat is a huge problem with the ZTL2 system in racing applications, and as we have discussed at length, a fair bit of effort and engineering has gone into upgrade parts to address issues in the original OEM ZTL2 platform. Nothing in this discussion has really changed from my perspective. As a side note, I also believe this has been known for quite some time by Buell engineers, though I have no way of confirming this. I got my hands on a 16.5" wheel from Jeremy McWilliam's XBRR, and a couple of sets of mounting hardware to go with it. In that set up, the rotor is mounted rigidly to the wheel using Ti fasteners turned down to .680 at the head. In addition to the wheel geometry issues of 16.5 vs 17 (they use the same rotors), I believe Buell used the rigid mounting scheme to address heat related problems in that platform -- the first bike to have the ZTL2 caliper to my knoweldge. When I say rigid, I mean rigid: no belleview washer, no spring... rigid. But to address your remark about my initial post that started all this, while I understand as an administrator of the system you are sensitive to trolldom, I'm *hardly* one to be considered a Buell basher or unfair to the make. I'd think by this point I'd well demonstrated my own like of the make, racing and riding these bikes more miles than any other member except one here and possibly in the U.S., and also a demonstration of knowledge about the braking system in detail in not just this thread, but in plenty others. | ||
| Sprintst |
So, how about TWIN ZTL rotors? talk about some massive braking | ||
| Jdugger |
> talk about some massive braking And weight. Have you ever pulled your caliper and held it in your hand? They weigh what seems like a ton. | ||
| Sprintst |
I imagine. that would be so overkill would look cool | ||
| Blake |
>>> For me as a club racer now, it is. Cool. How about for Geoff May and Harold and the Pegasus Team in Germany? | ||
| Blake |
Or Danny Eslick in 2009? | ||
| Slaughter |
One word where heat/cooling is an issue: Starfire FAR surpasses carbon brakes in all aspects. COOLING? We don' need no steeenkeeng cooling! | ||
| Ridenusa4l |
alright im kinda sick and tired of all this BS...lets just put it out on the board... ALL brakes get REALLY HOT,no matter what you do! the STOCK ZTL 2 system IS more prone to heat than the UPGRADED ZTL 2.5 system. while NOTHING is perfect, i think it is BLATANTLY OBVIOUS that heat will ALWAYS be an issue, however with the UPGRADED 2.5 system or ANY upgraded system heat will be LESS of an issue, but you can NOT eliminate it COMPLETELY.. so lets all sing coom-by-ya, turn the other cheek and AGREE that heat is ALWAYS an issue, however it can be LESS of an issue with the UPGRADED hardware...we're all in this together guys... now step away from the keyboard and go do something productive, we're all brothers in arms with buells so to speak... think how productive this board could be if instead of ARGUING we LISTENED and LEARNED and HELPED each other out... Jake | ||
| Blake |
Niiiiiiice! | ||
| Mike1125r |
I'm glad I drag race. I don't have to worry about heat build up. My stock ZTL 2 brakes stop on the the dime at the end of the 1/4 mile. Good luck Guys  |
