| Author | Message | ||
     Gearheaderiko |
Just getting the one valve repaired would be (should be) cheaper than the whole head. Its nothing special. Local repair should be the cheapest way to go along with having them bore your cylinder. It might be cheaper if they get the piston. It seems time and money are in short supply for you otherwise I'd be pushing you to seriously upgrade. But that would also mean that you like the Blast enough to put some extra money into it. Just a piston (with rings) is about $90. Bore and hone is $50-$90. New Factory cylinder w/ piston is $260 (but we can probably save you 20%). You can talk to anyone at Revolution. Just tell them what your problem is, ask for you options (if you want to go cheap-say so) and tell them the boys at Badweb said to call there first. An XB head and piston is the way to go, but then thats just a little more work and money. You've got a lot of ways to fix your problem and hopefully we arent confusing you. I know where the closest reliable machine shop to me is, but that doesnt help you! | ||
| Twack |
is there a thread on how to do the xb head and piston and all that is entailed | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
You're on it! I cant remember ever seeing or setting up a thread with that specific title, but thats what this thread is all about (mostly). Until my old computer crashed I had all the info condensed  Without going into great depth some points: You MUST use an XB piston with an XB head. Any XB head will work (XB9 or XB12) Uses an XB9 piston. You'll need to modify the front engine mount slightly by elongating the pushrod side "Do Not Remove" bracket hole (easy). Billet bracket is also available ($160) You'll need to fabricate an upper mid tiebar bracket. (I do know some have run without it though). See thread and pics for an example: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/201 64/481380.html?1233705320http://www.badweatherbike rs.com/buell/messages/20164/355851.jpg http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/201 64/355852.jpg http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/201 64/355853.jpg Blast pushrods and lifters can be used (reportedly. I opted for better lifters and adjustable pushrods, so I dont have practical experience with stockers). Blast cylinder is used (but you can use XB or XL cylinders). Its almost a "bolts right on" affair. The cams take a little more thought. 2004 SE XL cams bolt right in and are XB spec cams (minus 2 cams). XB cams bolt in, but have different timing marks and timing rotor notch. 2004-up XL1200 heads are also XB heads. If you look at a used XL head, make sure it has a 'bathtub' shaped combustion chamber. 883 and other XL/Buell heads have a round combustion chamber like the Blast. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/201 64/288003.jpg Unfortunately there is a lot of BS in this thread, so just look for the facts and reliable sources. I also see XB top end parts regularly on e-bay. They can also be found in the Badweb classifieds. | ||
| Torqupine |
The call of the dark side is strong, but the time is not right...yet. I'm gonna just put it back stock. I found a shop, but I need to get my own parts. Harley said it'll take two weeks to get the parts in. Is there a better source for a stock piston and valve? Is there any reason to replace the intake valve while I'm replacing the exhaust valve? | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
Not that I can think of (provided it didnt get damaged). Again, its at that point where if you do both, you might as well do the whole head. The shop should be able to look at it and get an idea if the intake is fine (it probably is). How many miles on the bike? You can call around to the various Badweb sponsor (or other) dealers and ask if they have the parts in stock. But the dealer should be able to check stock at other dealers. Aftermarket valves might be more readily available, but probably twice the cost (or more depending). Stock oversized Blast piston $92 Aftermarket 10.5:1 piston $154 You're probably looking at saving a week in down time if HD gets the parts in 2 weeks and aftermarket has them available. | ||
| Torqupine |
The bike has about 6000 on the odometer. (The previous owner made a few mods, a new odometer might have been one of them.) The head and cylinder are at the shop. I tried to order the parts from Harley, but the guy got really confused when I asked for an oversized stock piston. "Is it stock or bigger than stock?" Is there a part number, or a better way to tell this guy what I need? | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
You just need an oversized piston. Its listed in his parts book. I dont really know why he was confused. We specify stock as compared to an aftermarket hi performance piston. The problem is the shop needs to tell you how far they think they'll need to bore out your cylinder to clean it up. If it has deep scratches then you may need the biggest overbore. If its very minimal damage (or none) then you might get away with the smallest oversize which is .005. My guess is a .010" (or 10 over) oversize piston and rings will do pt#22678-98Y You'll need to check the repair manual for specs. (the machine shop will want to know the clearance the piston needs to have in the cylinder-they may already know). In short ask the machine shop what they think it will take to clean it up, then order that piston. Current parts listing only lists .005" & .010" over pistons. Earlier listings go .020" & .030" over. In case your cylinder is really, really bad. | ||
| Torqupine |
Okay, parts are on order. As for rejetting the carb, the bike had a Jardine RT-One exhaust when I bought it, I don't know what, if anything, the previous owner did to the carb when he put that on. What number jet should it be running? | ||
| Ezblast |
45/170 with stock intake. EZ | ||
| Torqupine |
Okay, at long last the head and cylinder are back from the shop.  I hope to get a chance in the next few days to put this thing back together and see if it'll run. I have the manual, do you guys have any tips or hints about getting every thing back together properly that may not be in the manual? | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
Torque the head in the following sequence: Start at 15 ftlbs and torque in 5 lb increments until you hit 40ft lbs. Then go over 40 ft lbs at least 3 times (or until the bolts no longer move). The repair manual says to do it a little different, but this way is more consistent. You can start out the same way as in the manual by torquing down, then loosening and finishing up as previously directed. If using a different gasket then stock, definitely skip the torque then loosen instructions. If you are using an early style gasket (which most are) dont forget the dowel O rings. Dont forget the pushrod cover before you put the head on! (it happens). Make sure the pushrods go in the correct location (they are different lengths). Thoroughly clean the cylinder in soap and water before assembly. Its very unlikely the machine shop cleaned it up. If its going to sit around overnight (or longer) until assembly, spray it with WD40 (or equivalent) or it will rust and makes sure its lubed before start-up. Before installing the piston pin circlips stuff some rags into the case so if you drop the clip it wont fall into the case (dont forget to pull the rags back out). The Crackhead and Gearhead debate: I found it easier to put the piston in the cylinder while on the workbench, rather than fuss with it on the engine. It also allows you to keep the gaskets clean while assembly. Crackhead prefers the repair manual way of doing it with the piston already on the connecting rod (which is just about the only way if using used pistons). Your choice. But whichever method you use dont force or hammer* the piston into the bore. It should slide fairly easily if you are doing it right (and you'll know when you are because it wont fight you). Be sure its well oiled. Hope that helps. If its too much information, just be sure to use the above torque sequence and disregard the rest! *Light taps with a plastic or non metal hammer is acceptable. | ||
| Torqupine |
Great. I asked the shop guy insert the piston for me before i left. I didn't want to try to track down a ring compressor and he had one there. After putting the compressor around the piston and setting it in place, he grabbed a large steel mallet to pound it in. I was about to yell "STOP!" but before i could, he tapped it in with the soft rubber handle of the mallet.  So the piston is in place and slides up and down as needed. I'm of to the local brush plane landing strip to borrow a torque wrench from the mechanic... the 170 main jet should arrive Tuesday, and I'll b up and running Wednesday...in theory. You have been extremely helpful, I can't tell you how much I appreciate it. | ||
| Torqupine |
everything was going great until i got to torquing the head bolts...stud #4 snapped of ping! the other three were at about 30 lbs (insert favorite string of expletives here) how do i get the old stud out? it's still sticking up about 1.5 inches. did that just destroy my head by releasing all the pressure on that one side? | ||
| Milt |
Try grabbing it with a vice grip first - you've got lots of stud exposed. | ||
| Torqupine |
Thanks Milt. i was kind of in shock when i posed the question. I was expecting to be riding this afternoon, but when that thing popped i thought i'd killed it permanently . I've been doing some searches and it looks like vice grips is the way to start...just wanted to make sure those bolts turn the same way normal bolts turn. will vice grips be okay for putting the new one back in, or should i use the head bolt to screw in the new stud? | ||
| Swampy |
Be certain that you only torqued it to what ever it is that you torqued it to. The stud should not have snapped at 40 ft lbs. I am not certain what it is supposed to be torqued to I think the factory manual says something different: The procedure for tightening the head screws is critical to proper distribution of pressure over gasket area. It prevents gasket leaks, stud failure, and head and cylinder distortion. 10. See Figure 3-45. For each cylinder head, start with screw numbered one, as shown. In increasing numerical sequence (i.e. – 1, 2, 3 and 4): a. Tighten bolts to 8-10 ft-lbs (11-14 Nm). b. Tighten bolts to 13-15 ft-lbs (18-20 Nm). c. Loosen all screws. 11. After screws are loosened from initial torque, tighten head screws in three stages. Tighten fasteners in increasing numerical sequence (i.e. – 1, 2, 3 and 4). a. Tighten each screw to 8-10 ft-lbs (11-14 Nm). b. Tighten each screw to 13-15 ft-lbs (18-20 Nm). c. See Figure 3-63. Mark cylinder head and head screw shoulder with a line as shown (View A). d. Turn all bolts an additional 85 -95 . The 1,2,3,4, referred to in the manual had a drawing of the head bolts, left side front is 1, left side rear is 2, right side front is 3, right side rear is 4 There may be a hotrodders version to this but I have not had any problems following this proceedure. Maybe it helps from getting base gasket leaks when you are spinning them up in the higher RPMs? You surely will want to replace the head gasket now and the base gasket, no sense on taking a chance that it might leak when you put it back together. Cheap insurance. | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
After 11b. follow the method I outlined above. I've done it with & without the repair manual preliminary torque and loosen sequence. Turning the bolt (nut) 85-95 degrees after reaching 15 ft lbs is a little to subjective to me and too prone to uneven torque (imho). The 5 lb increments to 40 ft lbs is the method that both Revolution Performance and NRHS suggest. But the bigger question is why the stud snapped. Did you clean the threads? Did you 'oil' the threads and bolt shoulder? Is the torque wrench accurate and/or are you reading or setting it right? As long as you didnt leave the head sitting at 30 lbs with one broken stud for an extended period of time you should be fine. FWIW: I was helping a friend do his brakes and when using the torque wrench on the caliper bolts he heard the "click" and just kept going. He had no idea that the "click" meant stop! | ||
| Torqupine |
I was trying to use the 5lb increment up to 40lb you suggested. This was the first time i've used the "click" type torque wrench, so there is definitely the possibility of operator error here. But the #4 bolt seemed to turn more easily than the other three and the wrench did not click at all on that bolt where it did on the others. I oiled all the bolts and shoulders, made sure there wasn't too much oil inside the bolts, but I only did a light cleaning of the threads. I removed the other three bolts immediately after #4 snapped. Going forward, is there anything special I need to know about pulling the old stud or installing the new one? | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
Repair manual page # 3-75 or Figure #3-135 shows cylinder stud installation. The installation indicates you're going to have a hellova time getting the old one out. I've never had to remove one so I cant say the best way, but I'm sure it involves at least some penetrating oil and the vice grips. | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
A brief search of Badweb also indicates difficult removal, but no real answers for a broken stud. Heating the stud up to break the Loctite is recommended. | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
PS sounds like you did everything right. Sometimes parts just break | ||
| Swampy |
I would recommend heat first, if you can get your hands on some bees wax melt that on the base of the threads and let it cool a bit then remove the stud, sometimes a crayon will work, a propane torch will heat it up enough to get things loose. If you get it hot enough it should come right out, if you clamp the vise grips on it and it does not start turning out get it a little hotter. Don't get in a hurry, use the heat and you should be good to go. | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
Swampy, I knew you wouldnt let me down  | ||
| Torqupine |
HA HA !!  It's alive. Rode around town 5 or 6 miles, returned the torque wrench to the airport. It was great, but i guess i didn't put the carb back on right. I'm having issues with that, but I'll post on the carb thread, I think I've abused this thread enough. Thanks again. | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
Thats great! How did you get the stud out? | ||
| Torqupine |
Followed Swampy's advice. I was fresh out of bee's wax, but i found some spray compound that is supposed to loosen stuck bolts, so I used some of that. I used a propane torch to get it real hot, then let it cool down. I used a dremmel to grind a flat spot on the side of the bolt so the vice grips would have something to grab. (this definitely helped, but if someone else tries this, make sure to clean all the little bits of metal and grit. It's not very good for your engine...And stuff a rag in the hole is excellent advice, with a variety of applications.) Also, make sure to grab the bolt at the very back of the vice grip mouth, for maximum clampage. | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
So that stud is tight!!! | ||
| Prichmon |
What are the flow numbers for a stage 1 stock buell head? What about stage 2? How does the ported head compare to the XB? The way it seem to me to do a xb head swap the cost is in the neighborhood of ~400+. ~550-600 with all new parts. Stage 1 is ~350 with NRHS. No changing motor mounts to boot. Thanks all Rich Rich | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
You should contact Revolution Performance or whoever will do your headwork for numbers (they may be on Badweb, you'll need to do a search). The XB head and piston is a far better performer than the Blast head/piston (or just about anything else HD/Buell made up to that point,dont let anybody tell you different). Mounts are easy. PS Stock XB heads are already set up for XB cams and 7500rpm  | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
PS I apologize if my info is vague. I'm far from home with only a laptop. All the better info is at home (though the organized info is on the PC that crashed) |
