| Author | Message | ||
     Reepicheep |
Interesting! Thanks for the info anony! So even though the regulator isn't really the problem, you could put part of the solution there... a series regulator would only draw enough current from the stator as is necessary at the moment, so that would help versus a shunt regulator. (Assuming the 1125 is still a shunt regulator in the first place, I'd have to see a wiring diagram and I haven't looked one up). But it still won't really fix it, as there still will be moments when the bike is asking for more power than the stator can safely deliver given poor primary oil circulation. So a redesigned stator (either with a higher thermal margin) or a revised primary oil circulation system are the real solutions. Sounds like our best aftermarket fix would be to run the original stator until they (inevitably) fail, then pull it and have it rewound by somebody who understands the problem and who has worked out a way to give it a higher thermal margin for low RPM low cooling primary oil circulation scenarios. Or the hack, which isn't a bad one all things considered... assuming that running a power debt at low RPM's will almost always be recoverable before the ride is over. | ||
| Dannybuell |
The stator issue and it's need for more oil circulation is something else. I think there are two things going on. The second as presented by '1125cr' and my anecdotal evidence is that a ground wire seems to raise the voltage display. It could very well be the cool weather allowing the electrical system to run better! IDK. I am enjoying NOT seeing the battery light at this time. I will be putting in the Erik Buell Racing ECM this AM to see how the electrical's perform. I will monitor the volts only if I see the battery light. | ||
| Lucky_jim |
Thank you anon. I always wondered what Buell thought of the harness "upgrade". It's unfortunate that HD didn't want to fund this final fix..Iike a REAL fix. | ||
| Duphuckincati |
So is the "lack of oil" issue fixed by modifying the inner cover ribbing and "de-gooping"? Would all be well then? | ||
| Jules |
PS, you won't be seeing the 09/10 stator in the 1190 since that is the what is causing the issues. It is the overheating due to lack of oil getting to it during low RPM. It is not the VR. Anon - Any thoughts on whether the new stator for the 1190 will retrofit into the 1125 - if so I'm sure some folk would be interested in buying one when/if their stator does fail. Maybe you could sell the revised stator to HD (at an extortionate markup) for them to cover warranty claims and sell them direct to us at a reasonable price LOL | ||
| Dannybuell |
Duphuckincati - There was feedback from Jason? who had not been riding the bike very much so he couldn't make any assertions one way or another. | ||
| Black |
Thanks Anonymous! No flames from me! Appreciate the information. Thanks for posting. | ||
| Naiguy |
update: after 100 miles with no issues after ground wire, same problem happened.... Over voltage! i am addicted to the power of my cr but the problems with the charging system and no one working to make it better, I am losing the battle with my self to keep it exspecialy now with warranty gone. I am super bummed! don't know what to do and tired of this bs. Going to go get a vr from asb now. but after paying full price for my bike and having multipul charging system failures I feel like the butt of a sick joke! | ||
| Easttroy |
I think there is some bad information running around. The stator doesn't need oil to function (or for that matter remove heat). The stator is generating A/C voltage, not converting it to DC. The conversion to DC is done in the VR and that's where the HEAT is built up. There is a little heat from the generation of A/C voltage, so even a small amount of oil flow should be enough to keep it cool (and if the engine wasn't producing heat, it wouldn't need any cooling at all anyways). The problem is that with the engine running, the stator is generating voltage constantly. If the VR isn't doing anything with it, it should dump wasted voltage to heat via the VR, not the stator (or in some designs shut down lobes of the stator so they no longer generate, tho I'm not sure this technic is employed in a 1125 stator). The issue with not having a good ground is causing a problem with both the VR (as it can't effectively convert the A/C voltage to DC) and the stator. If your stator is getting fried, it's because of over voltage in the stator because the VR isn't functioning correctly (unless your stator is shorted to ground, which is a separate problem). Also, there is a difference between the '08 1125r stator and the '09-'10 1125r stators. The later of those employ a 3 phase stator, while the '08 used a single phase stator. The 3 phase design allows for a more stable voltage / energy source, though does complicate the design being you are using 3 separate phases for power generation. Technically, it should be more reliable, but if you have a poorly designed VR, we all see what that has done to the reliability. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Do we have an anony vs. anony (Easttroy) argument here? Easttroy- if over-voltage in the stator is causing the stator to fail, wouldn't the factory "fix" make the problem worse? Isolating one leg of the three phase alternator would seem to maximize the voltage in that leg, right? If over-voltage is the problem, failure would be more prone at high RPM (when the stator is generating the most A/C voltage) which is just the opposite of what seems to be happening, right? I look forward to anony's rebuttal.  | ||
| Black |
+1 Hughlysses. Help me Obi Wan Kenobi! You're my only hope! (Message edited by black on November 06, 2010) | ||
| Froggy |
Hint: Easttroy is not an annony poster  | ||
| Jeepinbueller |
... makes brain hurt. Ouch. | ||
| Tibman260 |
Easttroy, You should check your facts. "Also, there is a difference between the '08 1125r stator and the '09-'10 1125r stators. The later of those employ a 3 phase stator, while the '08 used a single phase stator." False. The 08 has a three phase stator. Look it up. So as per annony and it is well known, the VR for the 1125 bikes has been the same for 08,09, & 10. Thus the only difference between the years is the stator, which was changed to increase power output. So regarding your argument, since the VR is the same, these overheating stators should be happening on 08s as well but they aren't. Also, your statement that AC voltage and current don't generate a lot heat does not give the full story. The majority of the heat being generated in a stator, and there is significant heat generated, is generated from the magnetic fields that are inducing the AC currents. Specifically, eddy currents play a big role in this situation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_current I'm with annony on this one. | ||
| Easttroy |
If they are all the same, then why are they failing on the 09-10 and not the 08? I think my point is that something besides heat is causing this issue. If this was a heat issue, you should have this problem in all years, since the motor is going to have the same heat in all years. The oil is going to be the same temperature and subsequently, the stators all are exposed to the same amount of heat, regardless of what heat the stator puts out. Also, recall that Eddy currents are based on the current of the circuit. Most of the reason that the stators are putting out A/C voltage is to limit the current of the system to a smaller output value. This allows for longer transmission of the energy to it's designation (see examples of this in transmission lines from the power companies). What the VR is doing is transforming that energy into DC current / voltages for the battery and remaining systems. I'm standing by my argument that the heat generated by the stator is NOT the cause of the problem, something else in the system is causing the issue. The amount of heat generated by the stator is insignificant compared to the total heat generated by the motor. | ||
| Froggy |
Only a handful have had VR failures, some on 08, some on 09. The numbers aren't even high, I know of many more failures on XB and Blast models. | ||
| Easttroy |
Hughlysses, " failure would be more prone at high RPM (when the stator is generating the most A/C voltage) which is just the opposite of what seems to be happening" Well, it depends on when you see the failure and when the failure occurs. Over voltage can occur at any time, when the ground is floating. There is no "behavior" to a floating ground, it's just that, floating. The failure occurring when the bike is idling is only when it reports it to you. I suspect it failed and then the computer notified you. I'm not sure I'm following your "isolating one leg to maximize the voltage" discussion. I don't see how taping one leg of the stator is going to do anything other than cause a bigger problem. The VR and the stator are typically designed together. Even though they are separate parts, they tend to be designed to work together. Changing the way things work without first reviewing what impact that will have can cause an issue. The VR is also two pieces (even though they are assembled as one unit). A Voltage Regulator and a Rectifier. Usually, when one component of this fails, it will probably not be good for other devices connected to it. | ||
| Hughlysses |
I'm not sure I'm following your "isolating one leg to maximize the voltage" discussion. I don't see how taping one leg of the stator is going to do anything other than cause a bigger problem. I was referring to the "fix" that was issued by the factory that uses a new wiring harness and change to the ECM programming to isolate (e.g.- completely disconnect) one leg of the three phase stator at low engine speeds. Wouldn't that make the voltage very high in that leg of the stator, and increase, rather than decrease the likelihood of failure? My point is that if your theory is correct (VR not controlling voltage properly causing stators to fail) wouldn't the factory fix make the problem even worse? | ||
| Jules |
Easttroy: I think there is some bad information running around. There is - but unfortunately you're adding to it. It IS a heat related issue in the stator, running at higher RPMs feeds more oil which aids cooling.. The stator does need the oil to keep it cool. The 08 Stator is a 3 phase - same as the 09. It's wound differetly and produces a little less power so (a) runs cooler and (b) maybe a slightly better quality part. The problem is that with the engine running, the stator is generating voltage constantly. If the VR isn't doing anything with it, it should dump wasted voltage to heat via the VR, not the stator (or in some designs shut down lobes of the stator so they no longer generate, tho I'm not sure this technic is employed in a 1125 stator). I am sure you meant dump wated voltage to earth via the VR..it does. The "shutting down the lobes" piece is taken care of by the harness update. I'm standing by my argument that the heat generated by the stator is NOT the cause of the problem, something else in the system is causing the issue. The amount of heat generated by the stator is insignificant compared to the total heat generated by the motor. It's not insignificant to the stator, the design is sub-optimal so it cannot deal with the heat it generates. You are entitled to your opinion w.r.t. the real issue, unfortunately in this instance I have to disagree and given the anonymous-sourced information also confirms what I suspected I am comfortable that the real issue is indeed the stator. Re-winding will be my chosen route if mine fails. If the VR is also a sub-optimal product (it's cheap) then I may upgrade that too if needed but the charging issues are predominantly as a consequence of poor quality stators no the VR. | ||
| Dannybuell |
Easttroy - I find you and anon's contrasting arguments interesting. I respect anons arguments with the understanding that this person is in a position to know. Anon is likely a Mechanical Engineer. HD and thus Buell electric's are and always have been marginal. ME's are not EE's. I can see an EE dominating an ME in this subject area. Your profile states Hillsboro, Oregon. For those that are unaware, Intel is Oregon's largest employer and is primarily in Hillsboro. There is a lot of intellectual horsepower out in Hillsboro. Are your arguments supported by your educational background? | ||
| Hughlysses |
For those that are unaware, Intel is Oregon's largest employer and is primarily in Hillsboro. Not to say anything about Easttroy's expertise one way or the other, but in my last job I (a mechanical engineer) worked with a vast array of electronics engineers, ALL of whom appeared to lack any practical knowledge of electrical power transmission. I'm sure there are some brilliant minds at Intel, but I'd want to know more about them before I trusted them to diagnose a troublesome motorcycle electrical system.} | ||
| Tibman260 |
A real simple way to solve this is to have somebody remove their VR from the bike completely. Then when it has no connection to the motorcycle whether it be case to frame or via connector, use a multimeter and do a continuity test between the VR case and the negative terminal of the VR two pin connector. If there is continuity, then the case is grounded. If it is not grounded there will be no continuity. I'd do it myself but I am out of town right now and won't be back for a week. | ||
| Dannybuell |
Hughlysses - All good points you are making, like all groups some are sharper than others. Most people know that Engineering degrees have extremely rigorous academic requirements, doing more math their first year than an MBA will ever do. I am promoting some self disclosure to see where EastTroy is is coming from. The name implies Wisconsin and the profile says Oregon. EastTroy's argument goes away from the conventional wisdom as expressed by HD,Buell/Anon... | ||
| Ezblast |
I dunno - my bike stayed at 13.7 all the way home. I'll take it! EZ | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
overly complicated solution but almost makes me want to add an oil cooler for the oil circuit that feeds the stator.i have an 08 so not likely to be an issue for me however makes me wonder if that would help short of a rewind by a reputable shop. and yes the stator does generate heat of it's own thus the oil circuit to cool it. if it didn't they would have left it dry. as it has a moving part but nothing that is in contact so the oil isn't there to lubricate it. it's there as a medium of heat transfer. maybe degunk then see if some fins could be added to the cover? ugly sure but may be functional at least until a shop could be found that may do a rework for us as a group? personally i'd love to have the higher output but not at the cost of reliability. | ||
| Easttroy |
I am only trying to think outside the restrictive boxes that most others have placed on themselves via anonymous people (and other conventional wisdom). Look where assuming the earth was flat got us when someone believed it wasn't. Hmmm.....maybe there is madness to my method after all. That said, the name implies nothing. I picked it out of a random hat when I was trying to find a name for my account that was not on any of the Buell boards. This one was free everywhere. (Message edited by easttroy on November 08, 2010) | ||
| Easttroy |
Hughlysses, Isolating a leg of the stator should drop the voltage, not increase it. There will be less energy generated because one leg is disconnected (assuming that the "fix" really does that) and there is a voltage drop between the 2nd lobe and a return to the first lobe. Otherwise, with the 3rd lobe connected, it should maintain the prescribed voltage, but they are having an issue doing that, so drop a lobe to try and reduce the voltage so an over voltage doesn't exist. Again, these are assumptions based on what you are telling me. I have not reviewed the factor fix for what it's suppose to address. (Message edited by easttroy on November 08, 2010) | ||
| Easttroy |
Ok, I'm going to try and see if I can get you to think out of the box a second. If we are all concerned about heat, let's look at some facts for a second (these all assume direct loss to heat) 1 gallon of gasoline produces 125,000 BTUs of heat 100w produces approximately 341.3 BTUs of heat / hour So, assuming these values, let's assume a closed system in our 1125 engine where no loss is derived into motion or air or a cooling system. Let's also assume it takes an hour for the system to consume 1 gallon of gasoline (though I am probably wrong, I never measured how long it would take a 1125 to burn 1 gallon of gas, you are welcome to correct me if I am wrong). Next, let's say that the 08 stator produces 440w of power and ALL of it is converted into heat. Next, lets assume that the 09-10 stator produces 540w of power and ALL of it is converted into heat Now, here's what I get for values: 08 stator: 1501.72 BTUs of heat / hour 09 stator: 1843.02 BTUs of heat / hour Difference: 341.3 BTUs / hour Total 08 system BTU's / hour: 126,501.72 Total 09 system BTU's / hour: 126,843.02 Percentage of BTU's / hour 08 stator produces: 1.18711% Percentage of BTU's / hour 09 stator produces: 1.45299% Now, I'm not going to say that the stator doesn't produces some heat, but EVEN if it converted it ALL DIRECTLY to heat, it would be less than 1.5% of the total system heat (given the assumption above). I call that insignificant. Again, I'm not saying that this doesn't imply the need for cooling of the stator, I just think that the heat generated by it is not as "big" as others think it is and the heat generated by the rest of the system is just as likely to be causing this problem. (Message edited by easttroy on November 08, 2010) | ||
| Jules |
I'm afraid that is a specious argument. Let us assume that the 1125 runs on Pixie dust, the 08 uses less magic pixie dust to produce electricity whereas the 09 need you to melt more elephnats to produce the dust needed. The fault doeasn't lie with the 09 it lies with the inferior elephants born after 2008... Seriously - thinking outside of the box is fine - until you start to ignore the laws of physics (take the flat earth argument as an example). Take a look at an 08 stator and an 09 stator side by side. You'll notice one is bigger than thother, one has more nodes than the other and one looks to be better quality than the other. There may well be a small increase in generated/retained heat in the 09 compared to the overall heat generated by the wholebike... you might as well say that as a percentage of the BTU produced by the sun it's insignificant, but that's irrelevant. It's not the bike's overall heat generation/discipation that's the issue it is the generation/discipation of heat in the component in question. | ||
| Zac4mac |
Stator is a long piece (3 long pieces for 3 phase) of insulated copper wire wrapped around a laminated iron core. As temp increases, the copper's resistance increases. This causes 2 effects:1) output voltage drops and 2) heat produced in the wire increases. If the stator gets too hot, the insulation breaks down and the turns of wire start to short out internally, exacerbating the problem. Less functioning turns of wire means less power out so the output cascades to failure as more turns short out. I have no problem with what Anony said. Keeping both eyes on this problem. Glad I have an 08. Zack |
