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Nallac
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2010 - 04:35 pm: | 
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Kalali, I had tried every possible combination,
it wont run with the leads the wrong way round.
I have just tried swapping coil input wires and leads over so that the front coil is sparking the rear hoping the front cylinder would run and the rear would be dead...pointing to the coil being dead.Nope rear cyl chugged along nicely front still dead...
gave up,and went checking for intake leaks for the 5th or 6th time,been thru a can of Contact cleaner and a litre of white spirits checking already.....
Low and behold it has a leak on the throttle butterfly shaft on the cable side.
Stripped the intake down and checked the end of the shaft.
It has a fibreish? washer/seal thats pretty stuffed.
I filled it with grease and oil to try and seal it.
Started bike up and shes running on two cyl's finally.......its still breaking down under load tho because of the stuffed seal.
Will have to see if you can get a new one?.
I can't actually believe it would cause the front cyl to drop out but it sure seems to....
Two weeks of chasing a non existant electrical fault.........
F@#K...
Jesse have you checked your intake for leaks?.
(Message edited by nallac on September 14, 2010) |
Cellerjc
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2010 - 07:11 pm: |
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i was going to tonight when i swap injectors. thabks for the input ill definetky check he intake. would it attempt to run when you sprayed fluid at it? |
Cellerjc
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2010 - 07:14 pm: |
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i was going to tonight when i swap injectors. thanks for the input ill definetly check he intake. would it attempt to run when you sprayed fluid at it? |
Nallac
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2010 - 11:24 pm: |
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It would only run on the rear until i sprayed fluid on the intake(throttle shaft),then it'd jump on to two,while spraying and die down again when fluid was all burnt up.
i had checked the intake multiple times without luck..I had installed new intake gaskets 4 weeks ago.So thought they were good.
Don't use WD40 as its not really good enough.Contact cleaner works OK or white spirits or the like.Something nice and flamable.
Hopefully its something simple... |
Cellerjc
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2010 - 02:36 am: |
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glad you found your problem. i bought intake seals today just incase they are bad. ill post as soon as i get them in. thanks for your help. keep the rubber side down. |
Kalali
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2010 - 11:35 am: |
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"I can't actually believe it would cause the front cyl to drop out but it sure seems to...."
I can't believe it either. It must have to do with huge amount of positive/negative vacuum that the engine creates. What do you mean by "stuffed seal"? Is that the "fiberish" seal thingy between the spring loaded throttle shaft and the throttle body where the cable(s). terminate?
But I'm still puzzled to see this (leak) making the spark and fuel deliveries to get out of sync.
It must be a relief to finally get to the bottom of this and I'm glad to stayed on it and we all learned a lot through your "suffering"!!
 |
Nallac
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 02:39 am: |
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well its was to good to be true,its still a single banger...must of been the white spirits burning up making it run on two...............
At least it doesn't have intake leaks any more.
TPS or ETS next on the replacement list?.
Maybe O2 sensor?.
Kalali, yip its was the fiberish seal behind the cable bracket. |
Snowbees
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 04:31 am: |
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do you have ecm spy ?
you can watch the tps rise and fall on the overview screen as you twist the throttle, about 5% at tickover to 100% at full throttle,if it does then it should be ok
same with the ets and iat temps, you should see a steady rise in ets temp on the overview screen as you warm up the motor, if steady then ets should be ok. IAT temps should stay at around ambient temps.
you can turn the 02 sensor off with ecmspy. the bike will still run(i have done data logs with it turned off) .try just disconnecting it, should still run but i'm not sure on that one
I have been through a few similar head f**ks on my x1 so i know what you are going through. My vote is a wire problem,
I had a problem with the grey wire on the ecm connector, the female pin socket was loose inside the connector block, throwing various trouble codes, i found that one by pushing the wire into the connector while connected. also had issues with dirty/dry connections on the fuse/relay block.
Best of luck.
forgot to ask, did you do a pump preasure test ?also have you had the injectors out and connected to the tank,crank the motor and watch the spray patern
(Message edited by snowbees on September 16, 2010) |
Nallac
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 05:50 am: |
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Yip have ECM spy, have checked/watched ETS
TPS,they both seem to check out OK.
No jumps or spikes.
Everything throws codes when disconected,with bike running as they should.Just wish it'd throw one so i could find the problem.
I have unplugged IAT,ETS,O2 sensors with the bike running with little or no change(bar the idle rising when ETS unplugged,should do that as the cold start map goes up?.)
Fuel pump tested at 51PSI,(so within range of 46-53psi).
Injectors swapped front to rear etc.
Have tested every wire for the right signals/voltage.All seem Ok.
The Grey wire you had probs with is looped to all sensors/injectors.
I have checked that conection in the ECM already. |
Cellerjc
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 11:31 am: |
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last night i removed the injectors and did a resistance test, in the book they should ohm out at 12.25, rear was 12.2 and front was 12.4 would that small difference cause the front not to work properly. i personally dont think it would affect performance. |
Nallac
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 03:23 pm: |
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Jesse did you swap them around and try them?. |
Cellerjc
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 07:59 pm: |
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not yet, going to put the intakes seals in first and make sure thats not it before i do. |
Nallac
| | Posted on Saturday, September 18, 2010 - 06:42 am: |
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Well yesterday in desperation i did two things.....
1, cleaned out the dielectric grease from the TPS.
2, retarded the timing.
The Bi@#h started and ran on 2cyls......
not 100% but Semi OK.Took it for a a good 10min ride to work making sure i kept in in the closed loop mode for a few mins.
This morning i checked the AFV,it was 129%?...Idled really high(2k) even backing out the TPS to 4*.
Ran the bike at idle for probably 10mins adjusting the timing.Advancing and retarding ,bike ran on 2 the whole time.
Went from Perfect ECMspy set static timing
to 2-3*advance and retarded with desernable difference bar quicker/cleaner throttle response.
Did a hot TPS reset and set the AFV to 100%.
Bike idled nicely at 5.1*.
Took it for a ride,ran like crap breaking down under load(timing set at crispest throttle response,not correct static set but close).Adjusted the timing on the side of the road(twice).
Did a good few miles in closed loop mode,Bike ran well just a little popping at farting.....
Got home at checked AFV again 131%?.Idling at 2k again....Along with a nice top rocker box leak.
Will have to fix rocker box leak and check for intake or exhaust leaks again tomorrow to find out why the AFV is @130+.
Oh,and I have a 05 XB cityx in my shed at the moment with the same sort of symtoms.Running on one cylinder.......
Stripped it down today to do a compression check.
Fark give me a Tuber to work on any day.
Its not mine but a friends.... |
Kalali
| | Posted on Saturday, September 18, 2010 - 09:14 am: |
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The high idle and high AFV point to a lean condition. Air is getting sucked in from somewhere. So do you know now what caused the intermittent spark? And how did you adjust the timing on the fly? ECMSPY? |
Cellerjc
| | Posted on Saturday, September 18, 2010 - 04:55 pm: |
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last night i replaced my intake gaskets. it was a waste of time they looked good. but at least i know they're good now.after putting it all back together i tried to turn it over. wouldn't start. so then i sprayed ether down the intake, bike started and ran as it should on both cylinders. hooray i found my problem, at least I'm almost positive. its the front injector. |
Snowbees
| | Posted on Sunday, September 19, 2010 - 06:32 am: |
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Nallac, sounds to me the rear is lean for some reason, lambda sees this and adds fuel, flooding the front, not injectors as you have swapped them over, have you replaced the fuel filter, you might have good pressure at the pump but the filter could restrict pressure (clutching at straws), or a serious air leak as Kalali said.
Cellerjc, have you swapped the injectors over to see if it moves the problem to the rear cylinder ?
I hope you both solve your issues soon . |
Nallac
| | Posted on Monday, September 20, 2010 - 03:45 am: |
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Jesse have/did you swap injectors to see if it swaps to the rear?.lets hope so,something simple.
Martin, I can/have found intact leaks on front manifold and injector oring(had to have revs @1700+ to find em)none on the rear tho,have ordered new manifold seals(again) but not orings as the local H-D dealer wants $25 each......not F'n likely
will have to see what i can find amongst my slim selection.
I do need to get a new filter and will swap injectors over(back to orginal) and see what happens then. |
Cellerjc
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2010 - 12:31 pm: |
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does anyone know if there is a difference between the injector for an 04-05 found one on eBay but it states its for an 05. still waiting to buy the part until everything checks out still need to inspect the wiring to injector. if it is good then i will swap injectors, my only question is that the front and rear injectors are two different colors. are these color coded or does this make no difference? also does anyone know where i can get the injector. harley doesn't know how long its going to take to receive one, because of some parts being discontinued. |
Nallac
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2010 - 05:05 pm: |
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Sorry Jesse can't help you with the injectors.
I changed my intake and injector seals last night.Checked for leaks,exhaust aswell.Couldn't find any.
Reset the AFV to 100%.Was at 117%.Did a TPS reset(bike hot).
Ran like crap...played with the AFV %.
Set it to 127% it will run on 2 when the revs get up above 2Kish,with the ocasional
backfire..
Just wondering if the front injector(which is still in the back)is not spraying enough fuel,leaning out the AFV?..
The AFV hadn't spiked before they were swapped.Was running @103%.
Whos got a carb for me???????????...
Gotta get this sorted,its my only vehicle..
Oh and just to be a Bit@h, i ran it outa gas on the way to work yesterday.I don't like pushing this bike at all. |
Kalali
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2010 - 06:12 pm: |
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Callan, I couldn't find your original post asking about the part number for the "fiberish" throttle body o-ring/seal thingy but I looked at the TB I have with the broken shaft and found the seal you're talking about. Unfortunately it looks like it got damaged during disassembly - cut in one area. I would gladly send it to you if you think you can somehow fix it...
But to be honest, I just can't see how a leak in that area could cause the symptoms you're experiencing... |
Nallac
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2010 - 02:42 am: |
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Cheers Kalali,i fab'd up one out of foam i had lying around.Fixed that leak.
It's still leaking around thee intake seals...I'll have to track down some James intake seals. |
Snowbees
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2010 - 04:26 am: |
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Callan, Injectors can be ultrasonic cleaned at most injection shops, Have you had them out and watched them fire, checking you have an equal spray patterns. It sounds like that could be your problem if the afv had not spiked before you swapped them over.
your not having much luck with your seals, is the manifold and clamps in good condition. I put the blue james seals on mine, worth getting as they have the lip that fits between the head and manifold.
I also put a few extra o rings on the injectors that i had in a standard o ring set to make sure the injectors were a tight fit. worked well. |
Nallac
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2010 - 05:27 am: |
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Martin, i have had them out and watched them spray,didn't really notice/take note of the pattern,just checked to see if they were spraying.
Yep not liking the factory intake seals at all...To my untrained eye the intake and clamps look good. |
Nallac
| | Posted on Friday, September 24, 2010 - 04:41 am: |
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Well i installed some new James seals last night,the stock type not the Blue ones,got them for free so had to try.Used a bit of silicon sealer,left it to dry overnight.
Reset AFV to 100%,
Got up this morning to go to work @6am,
Bike would start and then die within 30seconds?....
Got lap top out reset AFV to 117%,bike started and ran poorly.
Left for work,went the long way(still only 8miles) to get the bike into learn mode.
Went semi ok till about 100meters from work where it went well?...
Started it up after work and straight on to 2cyls,went well a bit of popping going thru thru the 50k/30mile zones.
Went bloody well on the rest of the way home,running on 2.
Checked AFV, 127.4......
H'mmmm whats going on?.Might swap injectors over at work tomorrow and see what that does to the AFV. |
Kalali
| | Posted on Friday, September 24, 2010 - 02:53 pm: |
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You probably did this already but you may want to try running the bike now with the O2 sensor off and see how it runs... |
Sparky
| | Posted on Friday, September 24, 2010 - 11:32 pm: |
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Silicone sealer can harm O2 sensors. Did you use sensor-safe sealer? |
Nallac
| | Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2010 - 02:10 am: |
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The bike ran well today,checked the plugs and the front is definately a little richer than the rear.
Kalali,i did try that earlier.
I reset the AFV to 100% again,bike won't run @ that %.Have just chucked some Injector cleaner in the tank and will run a few tanks thru(with more cleaner) and see how that goes.
Sparky, the sealer wasn't marked as O2 friendly, i knew that, so if its buggered it its entirely my fault!......looking at it on ECM spy it seems to be working(well the values change). |
Cellerjc
| | Posted on Saturday, October 02, 2010 - 07:52 pm: |
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I'm giving in. had my injectors tested and they're good. did a node test and they're getting a pulse. everything works when it comes to the basics. I'm buying a cam sensor. if that won't fix it, its going to Harley-Davidson. |
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