| Author | Message | ||
     Trojan |
Great video from Mike Edwards from the last round of the UK Henderson XR1200 cup at Brands Hatch GP circuit. I for one thought that there would be a few more engine failures on the fast long circuit, but only two motors had any problems at all apparently  The guy he overtakes in the first practice session wearing the red leathers is Roland Sands. You can see that although these are supposedly equal bikes with identical equipment 'some or more equal than others' when it comes to speed and power. There have been some dyno tests showing a difference between bikes of up to 10bhp post race, although even the highest are 'just' within the rules at 97rwbhp . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czQkT8N3TRE | ||
| 186bigtwin |
The quality of these videos are getting so much better these days it's amazing...... | ||
| Slaughter |
Sands has a "little history" with our local Club - WSMC (from Sands' own website):  (Message edited by slaughter on August 25, 2010) | ||
| Anonymous |
Actuall all H-D's are slow, some are just less slow than others. As someone who intimately knows what went on in the old Harley AMA "883" roadrace series many years ago, it's no surprise. Cheating is easy in these "stock" classes, and is done rampantly. The race organization simply doesn't have enough skilled personnel to deal with it, or much if any financial reason to do so. Wealthy dealers and the H-D factory have far more money and people, so it's easy to do. It's not only tough to cheat in a 200RWHP class, heck it's just plain tough to get there! | ||
| Court |
In addition . . tech inspection is sketchy at best. I know a fellow who had his bike fail tech due to the presence of "Bigmouth Bass" stickers on the side of the fairly while the bike behind him passed and was later found to have a broken weld in the frame. | ||
| Aeholton |
That video was great. They are some of the coolest looking Harleys. | ||
| Trojan |
Wealthy dealers and the H-D factory have far more money and people, so it's easy to do. It's not only tough to cheat in a 200RWHP class, heck it's just plain tough to get there! I think that there is a 'gentlemans agreement' between competitors in this class not to lodge formal complaints, although I had a couple of vexed phone calls from series riders asking how certain teams have managed to squeeze 97.5bhp at the rear wheel of a 'stock' XR1200 while the majority of th efield are at 89-92bhp. My answer of 'they are cheating' hasn't been well received but that is the only answer I can come up with at the moment. My own similarly equipped (but road legal) Xr1200 has 91bhp at the rear wheel and I have no idea how to get another 5-7bhp whilst keeping the motor completely stock and within the very tight tolerances of the XR1200 series rules. I don't suppose we will ever know until somebody puts their money down and lodges a formal complaint so that the motors can be stripped bare for all to see.....Certainly if I was taking part in the series and getting beaten by a team i suspected of cheating I would have no hesitation in lodging a complaint, gentlemans agreement or not. However as an interested spectator I shall just sit back and see what happens It will be interesting to see what happens to this series next season. Hopefully it will continue but unless the dealers continue to run and finance teams (only achieved by H-D chasing them with a large stick and threatening to reduce 'discretionary' dealer discounts) I can't see it surviving in the current form unfortunately. What then happens to 20 odd XR1200 race bikes with 'deleted' chassis numbers and nowhere/nobody to race  | ||
| Crusty |
Actuall all H-D's are slow, some are just less slow than others. Come to the Indy mile this Saturday night and show us some faster bikes. The XR 750 gives displacement advantages to everything else out there, plus, it has to run restrictor plates as well. And it still is the bike to beat. I have no love for the Jackasses running the MoCo, but I also have no love for people who talk out of their asses then hide behind anonymity. | ||
| 186bigtwin |
Crusty, you are right about the XR 750's, they're winning against machines with greater displacement and they have been dominate for 30 + years except for a few seasons when the Honda Team RS-750's were around. It is one of the greatest shows in motorcycling....... | ||
| Davegess |
I have heard tell of an old 883 race where one of the Sportsters ran with a close ratio 5 speed box. I passed a post race tear down by clever distractions and a very large catch pan for the engine oil. Why it had a gallon of oil in it BEFORE the case got cracked open I can only guess  | ||
| Paint_shaker |
Of the many different race series, how many are harleys actually competitive in? I can think of 2; Flat track racing and All Harley Drag Racing. Mainstream roadracing? FORGET about it!! | ||
| Imonabuss |
Might as well call it All Harley flat track racing too. The rules are written specifically for them, and anyone who really knows racing knows that. | ||
| Mbc |
I don't know anything about racing,could you explain please ? | ||
| Trojan |
Come to the Indy mile this Saturday night and show us some faster bikes. The XR 750 gives displacement advantages to everything else out there, plus, it has to run restrictor plates as well. And it still is the bike to beat. Unfortunately AMA Flat track/Dirt track racing has for years hobbled every other manufacturer so that Harley win. Now that Ducati are competitive (with a pretty stock motor) the rules are changing to ban it for next year, what a surprise. Either you have 'one make' or restricted racing and call it such, or you should have open class racing and allow everyone to run under the same set of rules. This doesn't happen in flat track racing simply because H-D have for years been the major benefactors in the sport. Because the rules have favoured the XR750 for years everyone runs them and no other bikes have had the chance of many years development in the sport. I guarantee that if the rules were left alone for a while and people allowed to develop other bikes properly, without fear of rules changes, then the XR750 would become as outdated in flat tracking as it is in every other discipline. Of the many different race series, how many are harleys actually competitive in? I can think of 2; This is the whole point of restricted one make racing. To make a bike that wouldn't ordinarily be competitive in open competition eligible, affordable and enjoyable to race. Harley are not alone in doing this, as Yamaha, KTM, Kawasaki, Suzuki, Honda, BMW and Ducati have all had (or still have) one make race series for specific models at national level road racing. They can provide very close, enjoyable and competitive racing, although nobody would suggest that a Suzuki SV650 or Honda CB500 would be competitive if run in an open class field. Here in the UK we even have a huge following for racing old MZ250 machines at club level. These could never be considered 'racing machines' in even the broadest sense of the word, but are great fun to watch and race and cost almost nothing! | ||
| Davegess |
This year the flat track is opening up a bit. The short tracks are all sorts of bikes with Honda, Kawaski and others winning, The two miles so far have seen a Ducati and an XR750 win with a Kawasaki second in one and a Ducati fifth. The Half Miles have continued to be an H-D party. The recent rule changes have opened this up and the new AMA folks are determined to open it up more. The XR750 still has some life but it is fading. | ||
| Mbc |
Time for a Buell flattracker to hang Harley out to dry.Whats the limit ,1000cc's for twins ? | ||
| Anonymous |
Heck a Buell won one AMA flatrack championship a number of years ago. That deal was killed instantly by big brother! Man it got ugly! So, expertise test...anyone here remeber who and when? ;^) | ||
| Blake |
I fail that test.  | ||
| Mbc |
A Blast,built by Bill Werner for factory team rider.2001 Rich King (Message edited by MBC on August 26, 2010) (Message edited by MBC on August 27, 2010) | ||
| Trojan |
The recent rule changes have opened this up and the new AMA folks are determined to open it up more. I read somewhere that the rules for 2011 have already been amended to outlaw the Ducati that won this year and other 'interlopers' from spoiling the H-D show. I can't imagine what they'll do when the 650 kawasaki and BMW 800 start winning and need to make another remedial rule change | ||
| Dano_12s |
Bill Werner already moved to Kawa.I think the cost of XR750 rebuilding will be the end of it compared to the others. (Message edited by dano_12s on August 27, 2010) | ||
| Davegess |
I read somewhere that the rules for 2011 have already been amended I don't follow it very closely but I can find no 2011 rules. I rather doubt they will change them much, this new format has been well received and the XR750 has gotten very expensive to run. | ||
| Anonymous |
Nope, mbc, it was a twin. Running from a dealer in PA. Next guess? | ||
| Davegess |
I guessing Joe Kopp back in 2000. Was is the GNC? | ||
| Rsh |
This is a list of all the AMA Flat Track Grand National Champions: Rider 2009 Jared MEES 2008 Ken COOLBETH 2007 Ken COOLBETH (Harley-Davidson / Honda) 2006 Ken COOLBETH (Harley-Davidson / Honda) 2005 Chris CARR (Harley-Davidson / KTM) 2004 Chris CARR (Harley-Davidson / Rotax / KTM) 2003 Chris CARR (Harley-Davidson / Rotax / VOR) 2002 Chris CARR (Harley-Davidson / Rotax / ATK / VOR) 2001 Chris CARR (Harley-Davidson / Rotax / ATK) 2000 Joe KOPP (Harley-Davidson) 1999 Chris CARR (Harley-Davidson) 1998 Scott PARKER (Harley-Davidson) 1997 Scott PARKER (Harley-Davidson) 1996 Scott PARKER (Harley-Davidson) 1995 Scott PARKER (Harley-Davidson) 1994 Scott PARKER (Harley-Davidson) 1993 Ricky GRAHAM (Honda) 1992 Chris CARR (Harley-Davidson) 1991 Scott PARKER (Harley-Davidson) 1990 Scott PARKER (Harley-Davidson) 1989 Scott PARKER (Harley-Davidson) 1988 Scott PARKER (Harley-Davidson) 1987 Bubba SHOBERT (Honda) 1986 Bubba SHOBERT (Honda) 1985 Bubba SHOBERT (Honda) 1984 Ricky GRAHAM (Honda) 1983 Randy GOSS (Harley-Davidson) 1982 Ricky GRAHAM (Harley-Davidson) 1981 Mike KIDD (Harley-Davidson / Yamaha) 1980 Randy GOSS (Harley-Davidson) 1979 Steve EKLUND (Harley-Davidson / Yamaha) 1978 Jay SPRINGSTEEN (Harley-Davidson) 1977 Jay SPRINGSTEEN (Harley-Davidson) 1976 Jay SPRINGSTEEN (Harley-Davidson) 1975 Gary SCOTT (Harley-Davidson) 1974 Kenny ROBERTS (Yamaha) 1973 Kenny ROBERTS (Yamaha) 1972 Mark BRELSFORD (Harley-Davidson) 1971 Dick MANN (BSA) 1970 Gene ROMERO (Triumph) 1969 Mert LAWWILL (Harley-Davidson) 1968 Gary NIXON (Triumph) 1967 Gary NIXON (Triumph) 1966 Bart MARKEL (Harley-Davidson) 1965 Bart MARKEL (Harley-Davidson) 1964 Roger REIMAN (Harley-Davidson) 1963 Dick MANN (BSA / MAT) 1962 Bart MARKEL (Harley-Davidson) 1961 Carroll RESWEBER (Harley-Davidson) 1960 Carroll RESWEBER (Harley-Davidson) 1959 Carroll RESWEBER (Harley-Davidson) 1958 Carroll RESWEBER (Harley-Davidson) 1957 Joe LEONARD (Harley-Davidson) 1956 Joe LEONARD (Harley-Davidson) 1955 Brad ANDRES (Harley-Davidson) 1954 Joe LEONARD (Harley-Davidson) Maybe some kind of Harley ploy, none of the bikes for the Grand National class are listed as a Buell. | ||
| Court |
Safe to say that even though mbc was wrong that he would have been accurate had he said it came from bb of ncp? Bet these two could tell you all about it . . .   | ||
| 1313 |
 Found a few hardcore Buell supporters when I was there last December, 1313 | ||
| Anonymous |
Clue: It was an AMA National dirt series (not GNC)with multiple brands of twins. So, series and rider is the contest. Not Newcastle. | ||
| Mbc |
Interesting,never knew this series existed.Supertracker Series,1999 thru 2001.Bryan Bigelow won the series Championship aboard a Buell for Lancaster HD in the final season 2001.Now I need to find photos. | ||
| Anonymous |
Yep you nailed it, Mbc! It was a class written without the special XR-750 flavored rules, in order to allow current affordable engines from many manufacturers to run (Suzuki, Buell, Ducati, Aprilia, etc.). Of course it was killed off quickly by pressure from H-D when the show got good. And the dealers were told never to run a Buell name plate on a flat track again. |
