| Author | Message | ||
     Misato |
 | ||
| Tripper |
Whodathunk... a sporty motor that breathes well at redline. That muffler thingy is a miracle. how we gonna make the stock muffler louder boys? edited by tripper on August 21, 2003 | ||
| Dynarider |
It was very cool having Erik use the projector with pics & actually describe how that exhaust works tonight. You screw with that muffler & your torque curve will take a big nose dive. | ||
| Nxtr |
Can you use the Race ECM & air cleaner with the stock muffler? (will the Race ECM send the send a diffent open and close signal to the "muffler thingy" to open and close at different times based on the race ecm's different mapping)? Or does it simply send no signal at all. I would guess if they worked together it would make for even more usable power gains. Nick Stuck on an exercise in Korea till 31 Aug. | ||
| Dynarider |
Nobody even asked that question..its a good one. Course do they even have race ecm's for the 12's? I havent looked. | ||
| Darthane |
Oooh...purdy. Maybe someday. After I've ridden my 9 into the ground. | ||
| Al_lighton |
That dyno chart from their web page SUCKS. The torque curve and HP curves aren't even aligned. Besides, I don't believe it anyway, if they're talking RWHP. It's not a 99 RWHP bike it it's 103 at the crank. I think whoever created the dyno plot graphic screwed up or soething, but that doesn't explain the numbers in the box. Call me skeptical. I believe Aarons plot: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/3842/34816.gif Is it "fair use" to print a copyrighted pic like that here? I probably wouldn't have even thought about it, but it does have a BIG copyright notice right on the pic, kinda hard to miss. Al edited by al_lighton on August 22, 2003 | ||
| Aaron |
Their chart sure don't look right, does it? Going vertical and crossing 100 at 6500rpm? And you're right, since torque and hp are scaled the same, they ought to cross at 5252. The torque line starts and ends later than the hp line, what's up with that? Yeah, looks like something someone made with a graphics program, not something from the dyno software, and they didn't get it quite right. It says something on the website about a Superflow dyno? But Superflows typically read lower than Dynojets, so that doesn't make sense. That bike we dyno'ed had 123 miles on it. We only did 2 pulls (with identical results), and we didn't want to pound on such a new bike so we rolled it off. | ||
| Darthane |
So get that puppy up to 2500 miles and toss it back on the dyno! | ||
| Anonymous |
We've dyno'ed many, repeat, MANY, of the new bikes, and I've never seen even a brand new one come in as low as Aaron's measurements. The lowest RWHP ever seen is 91.5 fresh, and as high as 94.5 fresh. They pick up a number of horsepower as they break in, as I'm sure you know. You will find XB12's to have the closest rear wheel horsepower to crank horsepower of any Buell. The bike Sportsrider has is one that was broken in for 500 miles, then run for the press launch at Road America, the European staff testing at Las Vegas race track(in 118 degree heat), then US staff testing at Las Vegas race track, then sent to the magazine test fleet. Guess what, no blueprinting, no service other than oil changes (the bike used 1/2 quart oil over all this). It should have about 1500 miles of really abusive riding on it by now. Is the number from Sportrider a little high? Maybe a couple of horsepower, but the Ducati was tested on the same dyno. Dynojets do vary, but if any of you have ever read Sportrider, you know damned well they aren't biased towards Buell in any way. Is their chart a little wanky? Maybe, but I'll bet the bike is closer to those power numbers than to Aaron's. So, anyone gonna celebrate that a box stock XB12 has over 10 HP on the latest air-cooled Ducati, or do you all want to complain about it and talk about modifying it? And, BTW, it does this while passing '04CA and EuroII emissions without a catalyst or secondary air. Any techno guys appreciate this? Wanna know how good XB12's are? Mike Cicotto rode an XB12 to second place in Thunderbike class at Topeka. Wanna know what was done to it? XB9 pistons (makes 'em about 12:1), race ECU and race pipe, and a small trail increase on triple clamps for a test. Yep, belt drive, stock sprockets, stock airbox, etc. Go ride one for about 5000 miles. If you can use, really use, all the power it has, then modify it. But first, just ride the darned things! That's what we built them for, and they deliver. OK, I'll shut up and disappear for another year or so... | ||
| Aaron |
Well, FWIW, I sure as hell ain't drawing any hard conclusions based on a single data point, on a nearly new bike, done on one day on one dyno, at high elevation with evidence the SAE correction isn't fair to us. And I don't think people here are stoopid enough to do that. There will be lots and lots of these things on dynos all across the country and the world, we'll get a clearer picture of the range of results as time goes on. I just love that torque line and seeing the little valve dealy doing it's thing! Maybe I'm easily impressed, but man, after you cut a weld and test pipes enough, seeing a chart like that where the pipe magically changes itself just as you start losing cylinder fill is cool as hell, IMO. The XB12 seems like a terrific bike from where I'm sitting, but to be honest with you, I feel like it makes a stronger case for pulling new people into the brand than it does for getting us existing owners to upgrade. Which is fine, maybe that's more important. But for me, when I look at the bike and compare it to the bikes I already have, sure, I see things I like better, but I also see things I don't like as much. Makes it hard for me to run right out and buy one. Building on the original concept would've done more for me personally, the XB to me is a different kind of bike. Maybe I'm just a dinosaur  I'll probably get one eventually, but I might have to wear out one of the bikes I have first. I really like'em, I can't imagine which one I'd give up for an XB. But anyway, I think you guys did a hell of a nice job on the bike, engineering wise, and from what I've seen I suspect the manufacturing should be good too. Congratulations to all involved and keep up the good work and don't go away, your comments here are valued. | ||
| Blake |
Even at 90 rwhp that XB12R is closer to advertised crank hp than any other stock bike I've ever seen dynoed. 1-(90/103)=12.6% I want one for the track! CMRA Thunderbike or even a run at the LW SB endurance championship. Does Buell have any extras they'd like to lend out for a completely reckless and irresponsible cause?  | ||
| Dmuz |
I had my dealer crank his XB12S and I blipped the throttle some to see how a 12 sounded. I just could NOT get over how much quieter it was than my 9 w/ race kit. I'd LOVE to go big. But part of why I ride is for that lovely thump-thump in stereo. I just wish the 12 wasn't so muted.  | ||
| Prof_stack |
Dmuz, it's all relative. On my stock XB9S I like the sound of motor working its magic and also the muffler when I get on the throttle. By not getting the race kit I saved money and probably my hearing. Then again, maybe I'm just getting old!  | ||
| Stubby |
Yup. Can't stand noise. If I have to have noise for performance, I would as soon go a little slower. One reason I can't stand Harleys... too dang loud! Stubby. | ||
| Xb12r |
ran bike with the stock muffler did not like it took off the air box did not see the thingee in the air box move and the bike did not like to idle it would run at speeds but not at idle, put on my old 9 can with holes drilled in it and the bike ran better, now with the D&D pipe K&N filter no snorkle,stock ECM it run like hellll and hold on Hope the race ECM will run better,I should dyno with stock and race and see | ||
| Gearhead |
Greetings guys, First time poster, long time lurker! I just took delivery of my red XB12R, Saturday 8/23 from Dave at Iowa Harley. I've only logged 225 miles, very slow miles, I might add but the torque is great and the handling is outstanding!! The stock muffler seems to work just as advertised but a little more sound would be nice. I just traded my Molten Orange 2000 M2 with a Supertrapp so the new bike seems very quiet. Anyway I'm working hard to get the break in miles taken care of so I can get it on the dyno and of course I'll post the results! In closing, it was great meeting everyone at the Buell 20th. | ||
| Nxtr |
So... Will adding the Race ECM allow the stock muffler's InterActive Exhaust System to fully function??? In hopes of creating a lttle more quieter Torque and Horsepower, with new open and closing ranges based on the Race ECM's mapping??? Or does the Race ECM simply disable the InterActive Exhaust System, and can only be used with the Race muffler sans the InterActive Exhaust System??? I would like to know so I dont end up with the Race ECM and Race filter with stock muffler and end up with the bike running bad. Where I end up getting the full race kit and loose the oh so much FUN low end torque . T/M Nick | ||
| Grufflie |
,I should dyno with stock and race and see Yep, you should. It would be exactly the sort of information that a lot of us here are interested in and are patiently waiting for. Gruffs} | ||
| Jazzbluesman |
| ||
| Lornce |
Test rode an XB12R yesterday at Mosport (disappointed we weren't permitted to test them on the track  ) and came away very impressed. Much smoother and more civilized than either of my tubers. Fit and finish seemingly on par with anything from Honda or Triumph. Very nice indeed. Now, lately I've been at the point where I'm considering further modifying my S1 to make it more capable for track use: rear sets (it NEEDS cornering clearance), clip ons, modded swing arm for ride height (cornering clearance again and sharpen rake, though maybe compromise trail?) etc.... And I just witnessed the last round of the Canadian Thunder race series.... From my vantage point on Mopsort's turn 2 (one of the most challenging and intimidating corners in all of motor sport: the opinion of countless professional competitors over the years) I was able to observe the series winner on a highly and well modded X1 (he finished 3rd this round) chop and bob through that part of the track while the Ducati 900ss racers (1st and 2nd) and the lone XB9R (4th) flowed smoothly through the same part of the track. All four of those guys were railing like you wouldn't believe and knew what they were doing in spades. What I was observing was the difference in chassis performance. Which brings me back to: do I really want to further mod my S1 (which is a very sweet and satisfying bike in it's element on the street) and only get halfway there on the track? Or should I be thinking long and hard about making a little room in the garage for a new XB12R? I know which way I'm 'leaning' at present.... Lornce | ||
| José_quiñones |
So Darren won the Championship? Congratulations! | ||
| Nxtr |
Jazzbluesman. "Stupid" in what respect? V/R, Nick | ||
| Daves |
Gearhead, Welcome to Badweb, glad you decided to post instead of lurk. You of all people should know that it's HD/Buell Cycle Center, not Iowa Harley! Jeez! Lornce, Get the 12! Or pick up a 9 on sale. I rode a X1 for 2 years and about 13 track days. First time out on my 9 last April, which was also my first track day after a long winter I was 3.5 seconds faster per lap than I had ever done on the X1. I've since learned how to ride the 9 and have taken another 1.5 seconds off my times. No doubt in my mind which bike works better for me! Still looking for another couple seconds off. Ride to the edge! Dave HD/Buell Cycle Center Waterloo Iowa Iowa HD/Buell (Buell Cycle Center) | ||
| Buckinfubba |
get the 12 get the 9 , either way your gonna have so much fun your loved ones will think you ran away because your never home. but seriously dave is right on there. The 9 is my bike and I love it. if I didn't have it tho I'd probably get the 12....but then again...maybe the 9...see its all so confusing Brian tilley hd/buell buckinfubba@hotmail.com | ||
| Dynarider |
Heres the numbers PhatJ just got. ok here it is all..... 0.2 miles on the clock 93.8 hp and 71.4 torque bone stock outa the box... sorry i cant post the graph, they wouldnt let me take it... without the airbox as per dawgs request, 91.2hp but here's the kicker dawg, i did a less air test too.. taped up half the air intake... 94.4.... the bike is running too lean at high rpms, but on the low end its too rich.... needs a new map... | ||
| Smadd |
Is it good for the longevity of a new motor to run it on the dyno with so few miles on it? I wouldn't want to be the person buying that bike... unless I was a mechanic or rich enough that I didn't care. I have a feeling anonymous is right... better performance after break-in... although it doesn't appear too shabby to start with! BTW... my current mechanic (who has the credentials to back him up)refuses to dyno.. says it's very hard on the bike if it's not neccessary to do (as in tuning for bragging rights). Maybe he's just old-fashioned. What do you all think? Or maybe that's another thread... to dyno or not to dyno. I think y'all are too numbers hungry for your particular needs. Take your bike out on a nice, country road... bet you have all the power you need. | ||
| Tripper |
A dyno run is a simple pull to redline which I do several times each ride. The only potential harm is the lack of cooling air blast, which a good operater substitutes with large capacity fans.  DYNO. | ||
| Smadd |
Okay Tripper... you're probably right... given a *good* operator who understands the preload and other criteria that must be considered. My bike had several runs a few years ago with no ill effects that I'm aware of... save from a little tire wear! But as to the need for numbers for the *non-competitor*, I wonder how many riders could detect the difference between a good running 90 HP Buell and a good running 100 HP Buell at say... for instance... Deal's Gap. I can never run near the rpm where I can realize my potential HP on the roads where I ride 90% of the time. But then..... maybe I'm gettin' too old!! Steve | ||
| Ftd |
Dyna, I see in your profile that you put the Buell "custom" seat on your X1. Was it a BIG improvement over the stock seat? The stock seat is like torture to me. Anyone dyno a XB12 with the race kit yet? TIA (sorry this is off topic) Frank | ||
| Phillyblast |
Smadd, Aaron did something like 9-12, maybe more I forget, pulls with my S2 at his place last year, switching ignition modules and tweaking the carb. I then hopped on the bike and rode from Denver to Philly. No problems. | ||
| Smadd |
Okay... dyno runs are fine with a good operator. I suppose I shouldn't have made my initial statement, given my own actual good experience. But.. no one is commenting on "the need for numbers". And if nothing else, answer me this: You're plunking *your* money down on a brand new XB12. Which one will you choose... the one that you know had a few dyno pulls at less than 100 miles (how 'bout .2 mile!!), or the one that *is* brand new? Lets see a show of hands. I'm pretty sure the motors are run at the factory, but I don't think they're run as they would be on an all-out dyno run. But then, I could be wrong... even though I've never been wrong before!! Steve} | ||
| Dynarider |
FTD...yes the seat is a big improvement. It doubled the amount of mileage I could do in a day. Smadd, all of the bikes are run on a for lack of a better word "dyno" at the factory but the operator never gives it any full pull runs. Just a nice run up thru the gears to make sure everything is operating as it should. | ||
| Tripper |
Well I wouldn't dyno a bike with 0.2 miles on it and I wouldn't want them to deliver it to me. You asked if it hurt a bike to be run on a dyno. I like my bike to be occasionally dyno'd to monitor it's health, so I take advantage of cheap opportunities to do so. I agree with you that every available fractional HP is not a neccessity for all riders, which is why my motor has never been opened and won't be unless it explodes. For the person who expended significant $$ for upgraded power, I don't see why they would not dyno it and have a good tuner see if he could extract all potential. In the most extreme case I know of, an air-plumber friend of mine had a motor built by Nallin, then installed it in his bike and trailered it to Colorodo to have 'the good dyno man' verify and tune it. Of course now those trips would be combined into one! | ||
| Darthane |
I like my bike to be occasionally dyno'd to monitor it's health, so I take advantage of cheap opportunities to do so. I agree with you that every available fractional HP is not a neccessity for all riders, which is why my motor has never been opened and won't be unless it explodes. <~~Tripper Amen, brother! I've paid only once to have my bike dynoed (it has been on the dyno four times). There are enough opportunities (if you look) for dirt cheap/free dyno pulls that it satisfies me. Bryan | ||
| Art_vandelay |
Frank, I have a custom seat for my X1. Got it from a dealership dumped tubed-Buell stuff. Paid 80 bucks new for it. HUGE difference. I had done a few all day ride on the stock seat and couldn't ride the next day, now back to back days is now problem. I still have the stock seat for track days. Easier to hang off. |
