| Author | Message | ||
     X1_rider |
The bike is a 2002 X1W with ForceWinder intake and big bore Force exhaust. When I put it back together, I put new exhaust gaskets, I changed the intake seals, injector o-rings, I put a new head temp. sensor, new O2 sensor, new fuel filter, and I checked the air temp. sensor's resistance and it is fine (also monitored its activity with ECM Spy). I removed the PCIII I had on, following advice from this forum, and reprogrammed with the Race ECM using ECM spy. I did the TPS reset and set it at 5.1, and reset AFV to 100%. I use NGK DCPR8E plugs gapped at 0.040. I took a ride yesterday, did about 8 miles, let it cool off a few hours, then 8 miles again. The bike won't idle (even after the first 8 mile ride, it stalled as soon as I let go of the throttle (I managed to get an idle at around 1000rpm with the TPS at 8.1). Anything 3500rpm and under, the bike hesitates, sputters, and spits through the intake. During my 8 mile rides, I kept the rpm at about 4000 (because it didn't run well below 3500rpm), and speed around 60mph and it ran OK, but no "kick" when trying to accelerate quickly. I checked my AFV after coming back, it was down to 81.3%. I removed the plugs and they are gray/white. I used a propane torch and sprayed propane around the intake flanges, no raise in RPM (I did the test with the engine hot, I'll try again with the engine cold). I contacted Mike Cobb and he said a low AFV means the bike is asking for less fuel. I don't understand why the bike is asking for less fuel when the plugs indicate that it is already running lean. Any help or comments on this situation would be greatly appreciated. Should I just add fuel to the whole fuel table and try riding again, see how it will react? I'm at a loss here, I never had those issues with the PCIII. Thanks in advance. (Message edited by x1_rider on July 02, 2010) | ||
| Oldog |
other than the tps reset have you changed any other values in the ecm, I personaly am not a fan of the propane test method the fact that both plugs are white is an improvement and lead me to believe that the intake is either leaking both sides or not leaking at all. is the IAT reading cold close to the outside air temp if so likely good how about the engine temp cold, oh and congrats I never got usable readings on the temp sensor with a meter. what does the o2 value look like while warming up and when at op temp 0-1v the o2 gets ground from the header is the header getting a good ground the primary sensor that effects the afv is the o2. I suggest, warm up the motor, unhook the o2 reset the afv and take a short ride the o2 not being present will code, but the system will [should not ] not change the afv and should run off of the map do not tamper with any values inside the ecm, YET besides the afv. and check the afv right after the ride. btw on the tps, did you wind the idle stop all the way out so that the plate is fully shut? before zeroing? the coughs are lean conditions, and happen some times even with a reasonably healthy bike, when reaching op temp. ( transition to run temps ) lets think about this for a sec pc3 adds fuel or removes fuel by altering the ecm pulses, it also reads the tps, and if you have the sensor, the 02, the ecm is programmed to maintain a certain input from o2 when in closed loop. the pc3 only knows pulse in and amount to add pulse out, if the o2 is signaling rich the ecm cuts the fuel back till the reading is good. so in theory the ecm in closed loop will over ride the pc3. unless the pc3 o2 input skews the o2 from the bike, Note the o2 used for pc3 is different than the o2 used standard, I believe that it is heated. ( the o2 must be hot (600 F) to work ) BTW I remember that FMJ said that an X1 / S3 fi with a force exhaust is a bitoch to tune I will watch the thread to see how your doing... (Message edited by oldog on July 02, 2010) | ||
| X1_rider |
Oldog, before I changed the intake seals, I took a short ride and only the front plug was white and as seen in my other thread, the front intake seal was toast. I changed both front and rear. What other method do you suggest for checking an intake leak? I did not change any other value, I just flashed with the Race ECM, did the TPS and AFV reset. IAT with the bike cold does read ambient temperature. I will check the O2 value while warming up with the ECM Spy and I will also see if the header is getting a good ground. I will try unhooking the O2 sensor and monitor AFV after a ride, and yes I did back up the idle screw all the way, and more, before doing the TPS reset. The coughs were only happening at 3500rpm and less, no coughing above that. You are right about the O2 sensor for the PCIII, it comes with a wideband sensor. I'm definitely going to try and get a good dyno tune on the bike, but the closest shop with a dyno is about 10hrs away. I just want something close enough to ride in the meantime. Thanks for all the advice, I will try what you said. What is your take on adding fuel to the whole map (both cylinders)? (Message edited by x1_rider on July 02, 2010) | ||
| X1_rider |
Another thing, I do have the perforated baffle for the Force pipe, do you think it would help to add a bit of back pressure? Thanks | ||
| Firemanjim |
X-1, if your AFV was at 81 it means that in your learned fuel area somewhere it is WAY too rich and is pulling fuel out globally---the entire map--- so it could be causing lean areas elsewhere,thus your spitting. You need to get the learned fuel area mapped correctly. And I would put the baffle in, Buells like some back pressure.And 5.1 can be a bit low,set it so bike will start and idle with no throttle.Was this after the AFV went to 81,did you reset it to 100 and try. (Message edited by firemanjim on July 02, 2010) | ||
| X1_rider |
Firemanjim, thank for the advice, I'll stick the baffle in and see what happens. I think I got the TPS right to get an idle, or so it seems. I'll reset the AFV and go for a ride, see what values I get after. | ||
| X1_rider |
I got good ground to the O2 sensor, and the voltage is 0.49 at warmup. I reset the AFV to 100%, went for a ride and forced the bike into the closed loop part of the map (steady cruise at about 3000-3500rpm). I barely made it back home, the sputtering was insane. I checked the AFV at my return and it was 66.1%. I'm starting to think that something is wrong with my eeprom. I'll let the bike cool down and try a ride with the O2 sensor unplugged, see what happens. Any thoughts? (Message edited by x1_rider on July 02, 2010) | ||
| Oldog |
If you ran it with the 02 plugged in the o2 is probably bad, in that you re-flashedd the ecm , can you restore the original? The Ecms' that were made to agiven design will have identical maps to start with if the components change the maps change, I know that there are 2 race ecms old and new. the unplug test was to determine if the o2 is messing up the bike please reset the afv to 100 and unhook the o2 then test ride report back. FMJ indicates that a little back pressure is good. I dont know enough to argue it makes some sense to me. I suspect that the o2 is bad the fact is that its telling the computer too rich and the computer is setting leaner and leaner, you need to minimize riding untill you get a handle on this. do you have a buell part or the PC sensor? or an auto sensor that fits. to answer your earlier question yes you can add fuel to the entire map with one operation. before we tweek the maps we must fix the problem I would a restore the original eeprom reset the tps set afv to 100 disconnect the 02 warm the engine gently test ride say 5 miles or less check afv IF THE AFV IS OFF possible ecm / wiring issue, how did the bike run? buy or if you can borrow a used and good 02 that fits short road test check afv | ||
| X1_rider |
I have the Buell O2 sensor, not the PCIII sensor. OK, so I'll reflash with my stock map, do a TPS reset, reset the AFV, and disconnect the sensor. I'll just take a short ride and come back to check the AFV again. With the O2 sensor disconnected, the AFV should stay at 100% right? Thanks, your assistance is greatly appreciated. | ||
| X1_rider |
OK, so I did all of that. The bike seemed to sputter a lot less (I kept it at around 3000-3500rpm). I went 2.1 mile one way, turned around, it sputtered more after I turned around, then the check engine light lit up (for the O2 sensor, I checked it) and it ran smoother after. AFV was at 77.9%. I thought that with the O2 sensor disconnected it would remain at 100%? Shot ECM? (Message edited by x1_rider on July 02, 2010) | ||
| X1_rider |
I think we're getting somewhere. I re-flashed with the Race ECM, did a TPS reset, and put the AFV back to 100% and rode a little over 4 miles. This time the check engine light came on almost instantaneously (it only did so after about 2 miles the first time, as if there was some "residual" input from the O2 sensor even though it was disconnected). I kept the RPM in the 3000-3500 range, the bike rode MUCH smoother, still some hesitation but no sputtering through the air filter whatsoever. Also quick acceleration appeared a lot crisper. I rechecked the AFV and it was still at 100% when I returned. So what do you think, bad O2 sensor??? | ||
| X1_rider |
Last update for today. I got the old O2 sensor off my stock pipe and replaced the one on the Force with it. Same old, reset TPS, AFV, connected the sensor and rode about 2-3 miles to my friend's place. The sputtering was back really bad. At my friend's place, I disconnected the O2 sensor before coming back, the bike ran pretty smooth and the AFV was 95%. It seems like the bike doesn't want to run with the O2 sensor connected. It would be pretty unlucky to hit two bad sensors in a row. Perhaps the ECM is fried (I've read that it happens with the use of the PCIII)) and doesn't process the O2 sensor's input accordingly? Crap this is getting complicated!!! | ||
| Oldog |
Rider yes there seems to be some issue with a, the wiring b, the ecm the race flash likely has more fuel across the board, the ecm obiously cant be repaired. can you borrow one? wiring tests can / should be done to check the signal line to the ecm from the o2 connector Its late so I am going to condense it some. from your posts ecm reads .49 volt from 02 sensor warm, ok about right not sure what the mix was sensor could still be skewed .48 is ideal >.56v = rich, less than .41 = lean o2 may be ok, using old buell unit. bike ran worse on street ecm than race makes some sense the force is effecting the readings to the engine from o2 as gas flow is altered. the o2 connects to the ecm via the harness at 2 points, 1 by the sensor on the starter, 2 at the ecm the grey connector pin 4 the wire is marked v/gy ( violet grey stripe ?) disconnect the connectors both ends, using an ohm meter one probe on the ecm connector socket the other on the o2 socket check for LOW resistance ( 0 to 1 or 2 ohms, check for short to frame (motor ) ground. check for open or intermitting connections borrow an x1 or s3 ecm reset tps and afv test ride, 100 afv stays runs ok? connect o2 same ecm, still issues problem else where ( wiring / ecm if the afv is moving and the o2 is not connected ) sorry im pooped. I will check in later reflash, afv reset o2 unhook bike runs ok afv drops to 77.9 I dont think thats normal, unless the engine was running and the o2 was connected [ and ecm learned ] reflashed race, unhooked 02 ran good 3500 rpm, the engine should run ok across the board, afv should stay at 100, for now leave the race flash in the ecm check wiring, and test for skew with both sensors, for S&G what do the plugs look like, and wheres the timing at? it sorta looks like wiring or ecm input I presume good fuel and pressure, correct plugs? later... | ||
| X1_rider |
Oldog, the second time I ran with the O2 sensor disconnected, it ran fairly well and the AFV did stay at 100%. I doubt I have two faulty O2 sensors, I'm leaning toward ECM failure at this point (unfortunately I have the only Buell here and can't borrow an ECM). I'll check the service manual and do all the testing indicated for the O2 sensor/wiring and report back later. If all seems good on that side, I just might contact American Sportsbike and purchase a Race ECM as a replacement. I'll also see what the plugs look like, although I did put the gray/white ones back in for testing purposes but I'll put new ones for further testing. Thanks again... | ||
| X1_rider |
So I got 0 ohms from the ECM connector to the O2 sensor plug, continuity is OK (I wiggled the wires around a bit and it stays at 0). I followed the flow chart for diagnosis, there are a few tests I can't do right now because I need to start the engine (which the neighbors won't like at 6am), but it all pretty much points toward ECM replacement. I'll do a cold engine intake leak test with the propane (hot was OK). I took the plugs out, the front one was still gray but the rear one was brownish, I hope I don't still have an intake leak, I did change both seals. ...more to follow... | ||
| Oldog |
I could see an injector oring air leak those dont fit that tight. ok o2 wiring good, is the plug the correct standard heat range? un hooked afv stays 100 the processing is ok PM me you address I have a spare street ecm for an exchange test I will ship it to you it works good it will probably run a bit lean but the afvs will not skew if the sensor is good. you can test before you spend 250$ for a race one, then just send er back OK? Oh and please do not re-flash it | ||
| Oldog |
on adding fuel to the entire map there are controls to allow you to chage the cell values below the maps on the page, highlight all of the cells and add multiply or subtract as needed. my street ecm may have about 10% more on the entire map both cylinders | ||
| X1_rider |
I changed the injector o-rings when I replaced the intake seals. I'll see if there is still a difference between color of the front and rear plugs using new plugs (I use NGK DCPR8E). I was thinking maybe a plugged up injector, the bike has been stored for about 2 years, that would explain a few things maybe. | ||
| Oldog |
that makes a lot more sense clogged and stuck injectors no control of fuel new pipe and inlet changes in air flow new o2 possible bad sensor possible issue with the ecm due to suspected damage to o2 input b4 you buy that ecm make sure every thing else is good we know that the o2 wire is ok we think that the used o2 is good new flash seems to be ok lots of changes to weed thru if the rear injector is leaking that would drive the afv down and the front will be lean... the major air leak has been fixed be careful with fuel system cleaners | ||
| Firemanjim |
You guys are chasing wrong direction---81 AFV means it is seeing a RICH condition and pulling fuel. Any intake leak would be LEANING it out and AFV would be on other side of 100, around 110-115 as ecm would be adding fuel to overcome lean condition. Forget the propane tests and worrying about o-ring leaks and bad injectors. I am guessing either bad ecm( the fact your AFV reset after you had disconnected the O2 sensor is very weird) or did you load a race map/eeprom into your stock ecm? Seen that go bad so bike could not be tuned until stock eeprom was reloaded. | ||
| X1_rider |
FMJ, the AFV didn't reset after I disconnected the sensor. I re-set it manually then rode with the sensor disconnected and it stayed at 100%. I did load a race eeprom into my stock ecm. When I rode with the O2 sensor connected, I tried to stay in the 3000-3500rpm zone and it kept getting progressively worse. After I reset the AFV and disconnected the sensor, it ran surprisingly well. This is why I suspect the ECM is not processing the O2 sensor's information properly. | ||
| Kalali |
"...Seen that go bad so bike could not be tuned until stock eeprom was reloaded." The common mistake a lot of people make is they load the Race EEPROM onto their stock ECM instead of just loading the Race fuel/timing maps. Since the Tubers have a very limited versions of the ECM, most people get away with that mistake. Some don't. Should never mess with the .epr file unless you know what you're doing. And I'm with FMJ on this one. (Message edited by kalali on July 04, 2010) | ||
| X1_rider |
So I could just reload the stock eeprom and load the race fuel/timing maps in there? It didn't run well after I reloaded the stock eeprom until I disconnected the O2 sensor. Can the ECM lean only one cylinder when it's relying on the input of only one O2 sensor? I'll have to recheck the spark plug conditions with new plugs to confirm my findings though. (Message edited by x1_rider on July 04, 2010) (Message edited by x1_rider on July 04, 2010) | ||
| Oldog |
Morning Jim heres whats got my attention ___________________________________________ I checked my AFV after coming back, it was down to 81.3%. I removed the plugs and they are gray/white. ___________________________________________ he indicated run difficulties and spitting thru the carb, is that a lean issue or do i have it wrong? perhaps its additives in canadian gas? I was trying to determine the issue with the 02 end of the system. rider posted a pic of a ripped intake seal and indicated that the plugs f/r had different readings as well as the afv thing No dis respect intended ... | ||
| Oldog |
It makes good sense what you are saying Jim either on this thread or antother one I made the comment that aludes to what has been said that wholesale re-write of the ecm insturctions in perhaps not the best idea.. I have seen front rich rear normal ( air leak rear ) does this make some sense to you if the rear injector is not operating properly ( too much fuel ) the ecm compensates by leaning out the mixture, because the rear unit is leaking it does not lean out as much so the ecm continues to lean out the mixture making the front which is operating correctly dangerously lean. last test 100afv no o2 If i understood rider correctly both plugs are the same. yes the ecm could be damaged at the input for the o2 that is easy enough to check a 1.5 volt battery and a potentiometer would allow you to build a 0-1 volt signal that you could inject on the o2 input then the ecm could be monitored and checked with a volt meter to see if the input was close, as I understand it the o2 generates a voltage from 0-1 volt assuming that the ecm is good ( on the input ) then perhaps the issue is a problem with the injectors or the sensor this was changed out for an older buell unit out of the standard header. I have some concern on the "reflash" but what gets me is that the ecms are close enough that the variations in the programming do not cause out right failure I cant contradict what you are saying, as I dont have any where near the experience that you do.. I have offered to ship Yves my good street ecm for testing, with the request that it not be re-flashed he can set the afv and the tps try the no o2 then reconnect and try all on checking the plugs as back up would this be a good test? | ||
| X1_rider |
I have some fuel line and a fuel pressure gauge, I'm going to buy a "T" fitting tomorrow and see what my fuel pressure looks like. I want to make sure that everything is mechanically sound before going any further. (Message edited by x1_rider on July 04, 2010) | ||
| Firemanjim |
Oldog,his bike is lean----and rich!His problem is he has a rich spot in the learned fuel area and this is making the ecm pull fuel out of entire map making for lean spots elsewhere--thus the popping/sputtering.Most likely caused by the Force Pipe. Injectors most likely failmode will shut down/lean out cyl. Likewise fuel pressure,never seen one put too much out,just the opposite. You should call and talk to Terry at our shop,seems to me we have done several X-1's with Force type exhausts,may have map. Should be able to get number off our link here. | ||
| Kalali |
My suggestion is to reload/burn the stock EEPROM file onto your stock ECM unit and then just burn the race maps. That way you can at least rule out any ECM compatibility issues. I would then reset the AFV and run the bike in the closed loop with the O2 sensor turned off. There are two other experiments you can try to narrow it down a bit and they are, 1) "lock" the AFV at 100% by setting the min and max to 100 and leave the O2 sensor enabled, and 2) on the EEPROM configuration page, "disable" Open Loop Learn Enable mode. Make the changes one at a time and let us know how you make out. BTW, are you sure you have the correct part for the O2 sensor? A good substitute (for OEM) is Bosch 12014. | ||
| X1_rider |
Thanks for the input everyone. I`ll reflash the stock eeprom in there and only burn the race fuel and timing maps and see what happens with the O2 sensor not connected (I`ll check also with the AFV value locked and the learn mode disabled). Then I`ll connect the O2 sensor and see what happens. Kalali, I ordered the replacement O2 sensor from a Harley shop using the PN in my parts manual and also used the old stock one from the original header, both had similar results. I guess it`s possible but it would be pretty unlucky to hit 2 bad ones in a row but I`ll verify the output again with the bike warming up. FMJ, where is that link you mentioned for the shop? Thanks again to all. | ||
| Firemanjim |
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