| Author |
Message |
    
Snowbees
| | Posted on Thursday, June 03, 2010 - 02:01 pm: | 
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1999 X1, Race ecm, race exhaust, high flow airfilter.
Did 15mls on the bike yesterday, it ran great as usual , stopped for a few hours then it would hardly start, would run for a second then stop, popping though intake, chucking smoke out of the exhaust, took plugs out and they were soaked, Trailered the bike home and gave up for the night.
Plugged it into ecm spy this morning , No trouble codes, did a tps reset, set afv to 100% but it still would not start (fired but not running). Also noticed the cold start enrichment was reading 168% . The IAT sensor was showing the correct 23 degrees and the ETS was also at 19 degrees. My Cold start table is as follows
-10 180%
22 130%
65 106%
130 102%
170 99%
210 96%
260 110%
The battery is fully charged, there is a spark , but the plugs are getting soaked.
I have swaped the IAT with another i had, and plugged in another ETS, held it to earth but still no start. Checked the 5volt supply to ets, iat and cam sensor. Throttle position looks fine when you blip it am watch it in ecm spy.
Ohm tested the coils as per FSM,
LT circuit was 1.4 ohm, FSM is 0.5-0.7ohm.
HT circiut was 11500 ohm, FSM 5500-7500ohm.
Plug leads, front was 9100ohm, FSM 1812-4375ohm,
Rear lead was 14600ohm, FSM 4750-11230ohm.
So all readings are high on the coil, does this mean new coil and leads ? even though there seems to be a spark, maybe its not holding the spark when plugs are fitted.
Also checked the continuity of the wires from ecm to the coil, all under 1ohm which is ok. Coil power supply is also correct
Checked the timing with ecmspy, thats spot on .Engine light does not flash/stay on.
Did a compression test, both cylinders equal at 153psi.Took the rocker cover off to check everything was working in there,
Everything seems ok but it will not run.
HELP, its doing my head in.
Has anyone got the part number for new plug leads ? |
Kalali
| | Posted on Friday, June 04, 2010 - 01:30 pm: |
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Looks like you've done a fairly thorough troubleshooting already. The only other thing you may want to check is fuel pressure. |
Snowbees
| | Posted on Friday, June 04, 2010 - 05:54 pm: |
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I have pulled the injectors out and viewed the spray pattern, it looks good and strong. but i will get it pressure tested when i find someone with the kit to do it. i am leaning towards coil or ecm which are toast. |
Snowbees
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 06:08 am: |
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Replaced coil, leads and cam sensor, no joy, still wont start, just fires once and dies. So i am leaning towards the ecm now.
Have not done the pressure test yet. |
Kalali
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 11:32 am: |
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Some folks have reported minor corrosion on some of the ECM pins on the plugs (gray and black ones). Something to check. You may also want to remove and clean the main ground connections like the woven type (not sure what it is called) cable right where the rear hugger is bolted to the swing arm or the one that terminates in the wiring block right under the seat next to the oil tank. There are probably others but these two are the obvious ones. Good luck. |
Sparky
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 11:44 am: |
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Have you bypassed the sidestand switch? If not try jumpering the two wires in the wire harness that the switch plugs into. |
Snowbees
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 12:44 pm: |
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Yes Kalali i've seen the threads on the ecm pins, far as i can tell mine look clean,
i have been over the earths, even got an extra one onto the starter case.
and both clutch and side stand switch are shorted.
Notice while trying to start and plugged into ecm spy that the spark advance starts off at about 7.9, then it hits 21 degrees, don't know if thats right,
Its wierd it fires but wont follow through.
I thought it may be mechanical, bent push rod or cam problems such as broken teeth, but it does not rattle/tick when turning over and the timing is not out when viewed with ecmspy.
A new ecm is on its way. |
Kalali
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 23, 2010 - 10:27 am: |
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Looks like you've already ruled out all the usual suspects. As for the spark advance, I've never watched that screen when starting up the bike but just going by memory, I think mine reads 6.12 (front and rear) before start up and after shut down. I can double check I'm remembering the correct parameter/value when I get home tonight. I assume you have already made sure the battery is good under load. And BTW, your cold start values seem OK.
(Message edited by kalali on June 23, 2010) |
Snowbees
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 23, 2010 - 03:01 pm: |
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Cheers Kalali,
battery is new plus i have tried jumping it with another battery.
The only thing i have not done is check fuel pressure but i think its fine as there is a good spray pattern and the plugs come out soaked in fuel. |
Snowbees
| | Posted on Friday, June 25, 2010 - 04:58 am: |
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the ecm on order is part number N0326.QA , its for a 2001 x1, will it be suitable for my 99 x1 ?.
Any ideas on the 21 degree spark advance ? |
Snowbees
| | Posted on Sunday, June 27, 2010 - 02:43 am: |
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replaced the ecm still wont run, stripped the main loom looking for wear/breaks, nothing found. noticed the lambda sensor wire was hanging off where it enters the sensor, dropped off while inspecting it.
Would this prevent the bike from running ? |
Kalali
| | Posted on Sunday, June 27, 2010 - 10:18 am: |
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If you're referring to the O2 sensor, that should have given you an error code; something like Oxygen sensor short or alike. With that been said, you should be able to run the bike with the O2 sensor off and I can't think of a reason why it would not start because of it. You said you changed the Cam Position Sensor. Maybe you missed something there. If you post a picture of your timing map we may be able to see something out of whack. Keep at it... |
Snowbees
| | Posted on Sunday, June 27, 2010 - 12:09 pm: |
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Thanks Kalali, i have tried to upload maps, not sure how but have uploaded the .epr and .txt file from the eeprom(if it works..
I am going to run through everything again this week just in case i missed something.
Thanks |
Snowbees
| | Posted on Sunday, June 27, 2010 - 12:12 pm: |
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Also a log file when it was trying to run.
if its of use to anyone willing to help. |
Kalali
| | Posted on Monday, June 28, 2010 - 12:31 pm: |
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Looks like the heading row in our log file is a bit off making it difficult to decipher. The main thing that stands out is the column which had mostly 0 and then goes up to 480, etc. Is that supposed to be the RPM column? The best thing is to try to cut&paste the actual picture/display from the ECMSPY screen. |
Snowbees
| | Posted on Monday, June 28, 2010 - 01:46 pm: |
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3;1;1;3; |
Snowbees
| | Posted on Monday, June 28, 2010 - 01:51 pm: |
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tried copy and paste but got the above result.
if anybody wants to view the maps ,put the .epr and .txt files in the eeprom file in ecmspy and load it ?
i am not so good with computers. |
Kalali
| | Posted on Monday, June 28, 2010 - 02:13 pm: |
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I'll try that when I get home....I don't have 'SPY here (at work). |
Snowbees
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 29, 2010 - 03:51 am: |
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Thanks Kalali, i am gratefull of any help at this stage as i think i have hit a brick wall.
one thing is, it fires and thats it if you continue holding the start button (one fire), but if you to toggle the ignition it will fire again, almost like a relay cutting out.( i have replaced the relays and swapped the old ones over) |
Sparky
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 - 01:18 am: |
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Ya know, on the old cars, the ones with points ignition, there was usually a ballast resistor in the ignition circuit. The purpose of this resistor was to limit the amount of current that goes through the points during normal ignition operation except when starting. The difference when starting is a hot wire that comes from the starter solenoid and goes directly to the distributor, bypassing the ballast resistor, providing more voltage and current to fire the ignition while cranking.
I hope I'm making a point that relates. So suppose there is a parallel with that scenario and your situation where the engine fires while cranking but dies when the button is released. If it sounds like that is what is happening, I'd suggest the following.
I would verify ignition ground continuity from the ignition relay switched contacts to ground (goes through the clutch switch, sidestand switch and neutral switch).
If that circuit checks out OK, then I'd look into the wires that go to the ignition relay coil contacts, looking for a transient discontinuity somewhere.
Also I'd verify the integrity of the main circuit breaker and ignition fuse and that their contacts are clean. |
Snowbees
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 - 04:16 am: |
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thanks Sparky, i will check them out tomorrow, and report back.
Another line i was wondering, can the injectors over fuel ? possible that they have dirt particles in them ? |
Kalali
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 - 11:52 am: |
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I didn't quite follow the starting scenario. So you're saying that when you press the starter button it only cranks once even if you keep you finger on the button? Or, when you press the button it cranks and keeps cranking until you take your finger off the button. And it will not crank (again) if you press the button unless you toggle the ignition switch and the cycle repeats? Either way, neither scenario is normal. Sounds like you've got something messed up in your "safety" circuits. As far as I know, there are two (safety) circuits: starting circuit which has the neutral switch, ignition switch, ignition relay and run switch and the other is the clutch safety and side stand switches and the two circuits work together to make sure you can't start the bike in gear without pulling in the clutch and the other one makes sure you can't release the clutch (while the bike is running and in gear) with the side stand left down. I'd follow Sparky's recommendation. There must be a good reason he is called "Sparky"!! |
Snowbees
| | Posted on Thursday, July 01, 2010 - 01:51 am: |
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Yes i will be following Sparky's recommendation later.
she cranks, starts for a few seconds then dies even if you keep your finger on the start button, if you toggle the ignition she will fire again for a few secs. (both the clutch and side stand switches are bridged) |
Nallac
| | Posted on Thursday, July 01, 2010 - 04:24 am: |
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have you tryed bypassing the ignition switch,i've no idea how or what wires,but i would try that.Same with the kill switch.
It definately sounds like something eleky is dropping out.
Edit; have you disabled the BAS?.
Scratching my head here???????
(Message edited by nallac on July 01, 2010) |
Toecutter418
| | Posted on Thursday, July 01, 2010 - 08:36 am: |
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Have you checked fuel pressure? Mine did the same thing, ran for a few seconds. Turns out the regulator o-rings went bad and fuel pressure was blowing by the o-ring causing low pressure at the injectors. Hook up an automotive gauge to the schraeder style valve where the fuel hose comes out of the tank. If you don't have that then drain most of the fuel take of the gas cap ring and look into the tank while cycling the pump and see if fuel is spraying out the side of the regulator and up into the air. |
Snowbees
| | Posted on Thursday, July 01, 2010 - 01:13 pm: |
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Nallac i bypassed the ign. switch and kill but no different, bank sensor disabled in one ecm and enabled in the other but again no difference.
Toecutter418, i have not yet checked fuel pressure but will do in the next few days,i did have a quick look in the tank and could see fuel coming out of the regulator but is that not normal as there is no return on the fuel rail.
I didnt think it was a pressure problem as the plugs come out soaked in fuel (but i could be wrong !!), plus when you take the plugs out and spin it over there is a lot of fuel vapour coming out, it should a least run a bit with that amount of fuel ?
there is also fuel lying in the intake bell after several start attempts, more like Over fueling. possible stuck injector i was thinking.
Sparky, circuit breaker and ign. fuse contacts ok will look into relay contacts/wires tonight.
Tuning out to be a real head scratcher, i am starting to get confused and tend to go over the same things.
Keep it coming folks, i'll get there in the end even if i have to fit a mikuni. |
Kalali
| | Posted on Thursday, July 01, 2010 - 01:55 pm: |
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This is indeed becoming a real head scratcher...
I reread your original post and basically all your "spark" related measurements were off. I know you changed the coil and leads but did you repeat the measurements just to be sure all are back within spec? And did you physically check to see if you are getting spark front and rear?
Based on you descriptions, it looks very much like a spark delivery issue as opposed to fuel delivery. One other easy thing you could do is run the diagnostics using ECMSPY and listen for the injectors and the coil. Not a very conclusive test but just more thing to check. I'm putting my money on the absence of spark when you do a physical/visual verification... |
Snowbees
| | Posted on Friday, July 02, 2010 - 02:45 am: |
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i have had the plugs out and get an excellent spark (constantly), another buell owner had the same coil measurements as me (as measured in the FSM), he surjested the manual was wrong and the coil measurements should be made between the middle and outer terminals on the low tension plug and not the two outer terminal pins as stated in the FSM, the reading is then correct.
I have also run the diognostics in ecm spy, no errors.
Checked the wires to the Ign. relay/fuse, all good
I have arranged to get it pressure tested on monday.
Toecutter418, On the fuel pump , the pressure regulator valve is held in by two screws and is also a tight fit, does it press out once the screws are removed ? so i can check the O rings if it fails the pressure test.
Is the rest of the pump servicable ?
Thanks guys.
(Message edited by snowbees on July 02, 2010) |
Snowbees
| | Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 08:17 am: |
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well i got the fuel pressure tested, it was 50 psi, injectors fire well so i dont know what next. |
Kalali
| | Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 12:37 pm: |
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You are getting spark and fuel so logically the only thing I can think of is that the spark is not being delivered at the right time. You said you checked the static timing so I'm now not sure what else to look for. I've reached the limit of my expertise... |
Toecutter418
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 07:48 am: |
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If oyu have fuel, compression, spark and it all happens at the same time then it should run. Sounds like maybe a bad ground??? Have you tried putting a volt meter on the +12v side of the battery and just working around the bike with the black ground wire of the meter? On older bikes I've seen corrosion on the ground strap on the engine side, not buells though |
Snowbees
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 03:23 pm: |
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well i feel like an idiot, turns out it was stale/mixed petrol.
I had not thought about it because i had filled up with fresh fuel on the day it broke down . I had tanked up with premium unleaded in and drove off. must have been ok in a hot engine but once it had cooled, I came to restart then it would not fire.
OR
Did i put diesel in ?
My defence is, If i had put 2 gallons of diesel in, then it would not have ran for 10 miles after filling up, at speeds of 80 plus. you would be lucky to get 2 miles.
How many people use premium unleaded these days ? not a huge percentage due to the extra cost. so could it be that the petrol in the garage tanks is off ? possible mixed with diesel.
We will never know. you decide.
Anyway, Thanks to all who helped in this fiasco
I learned the hard way (again). |
Kalali
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 03:47 pm: |
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So how did you find that out!!?? Did you empty the tank and refilled with fresh gas?
Well, I'm glad it was something simple (!)
I have always used 93 octane gas so I don't know if it makes any difference if I use "regular" gas. You may want to add a few ounces of Techron FI cleaner the next time you fill up the tank. |
Snowbees
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 01:52 am: |
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we have tried everything so the only thing left was the fuel, changed it and that was that, it started straight away.
i did not consider it as i had filled up on the day it broke down.
here in the uk premium is i think 95 octane, i was told the bike would run better.
i think the garage tanks were low and stale due to slow sales.
From now on i will only buy fuel from suppliers with a high turnover. |
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X1 wont start
