| Author | Message | ||
     Rob_l |
Need advice, I've tried pump gas ECM still have surge. Feel it at 4000 to 5000 rpm's around town speeds. Vary annoying, not as bad at higher speeds at same rpm's. Bike has pump gas race ECM, stock exhaust, K&N air filter. Also it's been over 50 starts sense ECM install, no codes. | ||
| 99buellx1 |
TPS reset? | ||
| Drdorsey |
De-noided? | ||
| Rob_l |
Yes and yes. | ||
| 1_mike |
A surge is cause by a lean condition. Provided no other mechanical problems exist. The first thing I....would to is to call....Erik Buell Racing! This is where you got the "pump gas ECM"...right? They are the expert, let them answer your questions, rather than the general public that can't really help. Mike | ||
| Blackbear |
I had beat by brain about this surging problem for a long time too. Mine always seemed to run fine until it got hot and then the surging problem continually got worse. Mine is an 08 and I had the dealer install the insulation kit for the frame / gas tank. Funny thing about the kit was it only covered about 35% of the frame and I continued to have heat related problems. Bike still surged when hot. By the way, I have the Eric Buell gas ECM, K&N and RT-5 exhaust. Still surged! Then I went and bought an insulation pak and with razor in hand, finished up insulating the frame like it should have been done. That and my own vent modification and bingo, no more surging. Check out my solution to the gas vent / piss problem in a earlier post. Works for me. Now if I can just get the time to wrap the headers! | ||
| Xbud |
I'm having the same exact problem. I have the frame insulated on both sides and the front and still have surging. Mine is between 4K and 5.5K RPM's, really anoying. I tried doing a Global Fuel Increase by five through TunerPro and I am still having the problem. I think the maps might have to be adjusted richer for low throttle openings, any suggestions? | ||
| Rob_l |
Blackbear, do you know which of the two cured your surge? | ||
| Bueller4ever |
Unplug your o2's and see if it stops surging. | ||
| Dmhines |
I just installed the Race ECM for pump gas. I notice a little bit of surging as well between 5K and 6K RPM ... | ||
| Blackbear |
Rob, I am not sure which ended my problems with surging as I did a bunch all at once. Frame insulation and curing the boil, unpluging the front and rear O2 sensor (and replugging it back in later, doing my home made carbon canister, removing the throttle body and the injectors, (for cleaning) putting in new plugs, and re-assy of everything. So I wish I could narrow it down, but now it runs like a rape ape and smooth. Just a bit of fueling issue between 3-4k, but way better that it was. Just a note to anyone who removes the throttle body> watch out for how you position the clamps on the right side of the throttle body. Mine came in contact with the linkage and locked my throttle at 75% WOT in 3rd gear. I was lucky I didn't panic and just hit the kill sw. I should have got the clue when before my ride I set the TPS and I could only get 2% to 76% WOT. This should have tipped me off there was an issue. Finding the real problem when I got home, still shaking a bit. The screw on the clamp was contacting a flat part of the linkage, and when I tried to twist more throttle to overcome the resistance, my throttle got stuck and I went for a ride I wasen't perpaired for. Watch that clamp dude. | ||
| Highscore |
That surge and poor engine culture with undefined and thereby hard to control throttle response below 4000 with the in "all stock" condition, this was the phenomenon,I tried to cure at may bike. I am not riding at a track, I ride my bike in the Alps at tight roads with U-turns up and down the hill. Here the engine should pull from idle upward in a clear and predictable manner. The poor throttle response of my stock bike let me think, I am drunken, when I ride the 1125 the first time and tried to accelerate smoothly out of a 1st-gear turn. Additionally it was real hard to ride the bike in the town, from traffic light to traffic light - a situation which is not to avoid in a capital like Vienna. So the first miles with my new 1125 have been terrible, because I was nit able to get a "solid" and reliable feel with this bike in the corner. Now I am glad, that this uncomfortable feeling has disappeared completely. In my actual state of tune the Helicon accelerates willingly from 2000 upwards with instant power. I runs silky smooth without any signs of surge, when cruising. Modern engines like the Helicon are complex. The fueling and mapping is here just a single parameter, an important one. But it is simply impossible to "jet away" a poor engine behavior and character which caused by other component around and within the engine like its exhaust and intake system. My first step was the installation of an exhaust slip on, which assist the engine as best as possible with stock headers:   This is a REMUS-system. It sound different compared to the stock muffler, makes some Ducati-style "rumble", but is still within the noise emission level of the stock system - otherwise is would not be street legal and EC-approved. The "secret" of my exhaust is shown at the pic below. This header lay out" acts like a megaphone installed to each cylinder of the V2. And it is tuned to assist and help the engine form idle upwards, creating a path of continuous expansion for the exhaust gases. I am sure, other slip on arrangements around work in a similar manner - like so many others here, I am waiting for the promised exhaust shoot out too - but I am rather confidential, the last REMUS design with this headers works and makes performance without any excess in noise emissions.. No matter, which pipe you choose, it makes things better, nut is is not the whole solution. To bring torque and response in the buttom of the engine´s range, you need additionally some air box mods:   I have shown you these mod in my "hidden-HP- air box - thread. Each mod, the longer velocity stacks and an additional hole in the cover, thru which the engine can breathe, helps and makes power, culture and response in the first half of the engine range. My point here in this post is, that any of this mods helps and makes things better. But each of these mods has not the power and influence to cure that "surge" problem alone. To solve this issue, a single mod makes some difference, but a bundle of several mods, each of them designed and tuned to match with the other, transforms he engine into something sweet and completely different. a torque generator. Just now, with a new intake and exhaust arrangement on, there occurs the demand for "new" and "additional" fuel. Because just now he engine performs and breathes within a range, it was in stock condition choked by its periphery. This is the job of a new mapping. That is just the capstone of the tuning procedure, not its starting point, the "jetting" is only the systematically last procedure of that process called "tuning for best performance". Regarding "unplugging O2-probes": When just putting the connector of that single wire of, connecting the probe to the ECM, there is still some tension within that wire. Even with no sensor attached, the ECM reads something around 0,5V in that case. This is caused by the input circuit of the ECM reading this sensor. The "protection circuits" here apply some tension up to this loose wire, hanging in the air. Such "random-voltages" occur often in modern electronics, when the is a wire without any connection. But for the "close-loop" adjustment, the ECM tries tom perform, when it "sees" a tension reading. that "fake" or random 0,5V at its input leads directly into disaster: The ECM tries to lean the mixture out to see 0,1 V, its lower or lean edge of the "lambda window". Unfortunately this will never happen with the unplugged probe wire in the air. So the EM tries to make the mixture leaner and leaner. The effect is: even more and worse surge under partial load. Believe me, I have tried this, when I rode to my dealer for the last "100%-AFV"- reset with unplugged probes on the bike over 25 miles. The curious thing was: no CEL-light during this abusive ride. When unplugging the sensor wire from the ECM to the O2-probes, it is necessary to ground this cable, preferably by a high-Ohm-resistors. Only this pulls down the sensor tension to zero and switches of the Lambda-adaption-control-circuit. | ||
| Bueller4ever |
Highscore, I have zero, zero surging with the 02's unplugged and a dyno tune using pcv. my AFV hasn't changed in 1,000's of miles. And yes, the plugs are just hanging there, not grounded. I'd have to ask the experts, but I believe the bike to run off the map only with the 02's unplugged, so no ego correction is applied. (Message edited by Bueller4ever on June 29, 2010) | ||
| Dmhines |
I just emailed Erik Buell Racing and asking them about the surging issue and disconnecting the o2 sensors ... | ||
| Xbud |
Please post the response from E_B_R Dmhines, I am intersted in hearing what they have to say about it. | ||
| Rob_l |
Wow my brain is now on overload, to small for all this high tech talk. I get the unplug o2 part as most ECM's have a limp mode they go to if it doesn't see what it likes. Hope E-B-R gets back with Dmhines soon. Thanks to all! | ||
| Blackbear |
Highscore, do you have a picture of the unplugged wire from the ECM to the O2-probes and the resistor? I have the ERIC Buell gas race ECM and now I am wondering if the race only ECM automatically disconnects the O2 sensors and grounds these wires internal to the ECM. I hope someone gets some answers from Eric himself. Seems like a tug of war for the race ECM and the O2 sensors. | ||
| Dmhines |
No reply yet ... I will post whatever answer I get from Erik Buell Racing .... | ||
| Dmhines |
Here is their reply in it's entirety and my original emai - not a very helpful answer: Do NOT disconnect the O2 sensors! This may fix this one area slightly but will seriously screw up the rest of the mapping! Man, the internet is a dangerous thing! Thank you, Tech Support Erik Buell Racing -----Original Message----- From: Dan Hines [mailto:dmhines@mac.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 4:59 PM To: tech@ebracing.com Subject: Race ECM Surge Hi ... I just installed a Race ECM on my 2009 1125CR that I purchased from Erik Buell Racing last week. It's the Pump Gas ECM and I'm running 93 Octane. I notice the bike has a slight surge between 5K and 6K RPM when cruising and holding a steady throttle. is this typical? I have read on Buell Forums other folks having this same problem. Some of the guys are disconnecting the O2 sensors and saying this resolves the problem. Is the ECM programmed to run with no O2 sensors connected? What could be the cause of the surging? Thanks Dan Hines Cumming, GA | ||
| Rob_l |
That's about what I would expect them to say. But he didn't answer your question. Thanks for trying. | ||
| Highscore |
Usually an ECM throws the "check-engine-light", when unplugging a lambda probe. This is a basic and standard routine and indicates something is wrong with the emission control apparatus of the vehicle. Therefore I was more as surprised, that the 1125 did not flash "engine" at the dashboard, when I unplugged both probes at my bike. I did this when I rode to my dealer for a AFV-reset of the stock ECM. There was again an huge discrepancy between front and rear cylinder and the engine ran like crap, not so far in terms of peak power, but regarding engine culture (a lot of surge, continuous stall, bad cold idle). This was a 20 miles-trip, which should be a distance sufficient to create an effect for the ECM. Indeed there was some effect: The surge became continuously worse with a hard and unpredictable response when operating the throttle - this was no fun, because it started raining. After this experience we checked the ECM´s run-data by the HD-diagnostic at the dealer. The surprise was, that even the probe´s sensor wires ended in the free air, the ECM still measured a Lambda-tension of approx. 0,5 V at both cylinders, with the engine running at idle. This is from my point of view a curious thing, but that "virtual" sensor tension at the ECM-input explains soundly, why the engine became contiously leaner during this "test-ride". So the Erik Buell Racing-analysis for "removing lambda-probes" is absolutely valid: Just unplugging makes things worse. For this reason I attached the "free" sensor wires to the ECM via a 1-meg-resistor to chassis ground to make sure the tension within that wires are pulled down completely. Sorry, I have no pic of this mod at hand. But it is straight-forward: I cut the wire to the probe after the 1-way connector, soldered some wire with the resistor inline to it and attached the end to a solid metal chassis point. After this I visited my dealer again after some miles to check the effect of the mod by its diagnosis tool: - front and rear AFV still at solid 100% - a new failure code was recorded within the ECM: something like "sensor tension to low and out of range. O.k. - this failure is not unexpected when pulling down the lambda-input of the ECM to zero. But that failure code is obviously a "quiet" one, because it is not accompanied by a CEL flashing. And there was another curiosity during this check: Also the probe input to the ECM was grounded via a resistor, the ECM still reads approx 0,4 V tension. This is strange fact and in my opinion another and independent proof for the unusual operating scheme of the closed loop by the ECM. | ||
| Bueller4ever |
I don't know what to tell you Highscore, but my bike and any bike tuned using the Power commander V has the 02's unplugged and the AFV's have never changed on my bike. The bike runs perfect. I'm willing to bet that if you were to datalog with the 02's unplugged you would see a steady ego correction factor in the closed loop area of the fuel map. The xb ecm works this way. According to power commander, you may get an occasional error code with the 02's unplugged, but i've never had that happen. I never said unplugging the 02's would solve any surging problems. Unless Erik Buell Racing can change the closed loop targeted AFR, then it will always surge some because of the 02 sensors and ego correction trying to lean the map. If it surges less with the 02's unplugged, then problem solved, but not resolved. I don't know the target AFR that my tuner used for the cruise area of the fuel map, but he added as much as 12% in those areas. Power commanders stock map for the 1125 adds upwards of 20% or something crazy like that, it's rich! | ||
| Blackbear |
Wow now I am really confused. Maybe Eric himself can tell us why we should not disconnect the O2 sensors. I now wonder about his racing bikes and the 185hp. Is all this just a secret. | ||
| Easyrider |
Surging can be resolved by the good amount of timing and fuel... | ||
| Kevin_stevens |
At least you got an answer - I've sent my similar question three times in the last two weeks with no response from Erik Buell Racing. KeS | ||
| Xbud |
Surging can be resolved by the good amount of timing and fuel... If it is a lean fuel condition why would you need to adjust the timing? } | ||
| Dmhines |
Well ... I DIDN'T get an answer concerning the SURGE ... all I got was a warning to not disconnect the O2 sensors ... I did reply back asking AGAIN about the surge .. and they have NOT replied back. | ||
| Xbud |
I have been adjusting the maps by adding fuel in small amounts in the low TPS throttle opening's and it has smoothed out a little, but the surging is still there. | ||
| Bueller4ever |
xbud, you are chasing your tail if the o2's are still connected. In closed loop operation it is constantly correcting the mixture for best fuel economy and emissions control. | ||
| Dmhines |
Guess what. Buell tech support replied and told me to ship the race ECM back and they will correct the surging problem! Sweet! |
