| Author | Message | ||
     Homer007 |
Well, my p.o.s. stator bit the dust after 1600 miles. This is after the harness update at about 1400 miles. Does anybody here think this warrants a class action lawsuit? Not a lawsuit for money but extra security (i.e. longer warranty period for the stator), similar to what Honda did with their transmission issue. My Prelude’s transmission warranty was extended to 100,000 miles due to all the transmission issues Honda was having. The stator’s warranty period should be extended to at least four years because if I’m still paying for my bike after the warranty expires and the stator goes out, I’m parking the bike in front of a HD dealership and setting that sucker on fire… | ||
| Tpoppa |
I encourage anyone who's had a failure after the harness upgrade to contact HD/Buell customer service at 414.343.8400. Follow the proper channels, log a case, and request information on HD's solution to this problem. Enough cases are bound to get noticed in a squeaky-wheel-gets-the-grease kind of way. | ||
| Pdccd |
So, can we somehow do a poll on this forum? Set up a poll thread and see how many 09's have failed and try to compare it to total number of 09's produced? Simply out of curiosity. Maybe split it into R and CR, even encourage other boards to participate. Doesn't seem like it would be all that difficult, but would give us a clearer picture of what we're dealing with. | ||
| Dannybuell |
Class Action Lawsuits require Attorneys and Judges. The merits seem reasonable at first glance. Litigation is the last resort. Harley still has the same problem old owners, no youth market and without Buell no strategy out of this. I was one of the 75+ bikes out on the run the day when my stator died. Mine was the only mishap. Does that make me a 1 percenter? | ||
| Tpoppa |
I've been told by someone that I consider to be a reputable source, that he expects all 09 stator's to eventually fail. I don't believe it's a bad batch of stators, rather a design issue where the 09 stator generates more heat than the oil flow can consistently keep cool, especially at low RPM's. Hot spots eventually form in the coating, the stator weakens then fails. The harness upgrade is an inexpensive fix that attempted to reduce the heat generated by shutting off 1/3 of the stator at low RPM. Unfortunately, as many are seeing, the harness upgrade has not eliminated failures. HD is the only one that know the actual failure rate. Hopefully, replacing stators costs HD more than the cost of developing: A stator with a coating that can handle higher temps, A stator that generates less heat, or A stator that allows more consistent oil flow and ultimately better cooling. | ||
| Dannybuell |
An external oiling solution seems like the right answer to me. Put a connector into the stator cover, tap into one of the external oil lines and let cool her down. | ||
| Dannybuell |
Check this picture out a cooked stator. I am not sure whose brand but that is what I found. http://www.southbayriders.com/forums/attachment.ph p?attachmentid=280005&d=1257611338 | ||
| Pdccd |
I looked at mine when it was done. It didn't show any physical issues that I as a layman could discern, although the service tech claimed it was considerably darker in color than it's new replacement. When I replaced a gs425 stator recently, it too showed no structural damage, but wasn't working properly and fried regulator/starter solenoid. | ||
| Reepicheep |
That's what the XB stators look like when they go as well... big nasty baked goo spots. Somebody oughta specialize in rewinding these things... it would be a neat exercise, though a LOT of work. | ||
| Fast1075 |
Get one rewound with Polyimide insulated wire...I seriously doubt that the engine can get hot enough to damage the insulation in this wire...it is rated at 240c or 464f | ||
| Kirb |
You should be able to test a fried stator without taking it from the bike. You can check the resistance of the windings to each other and the frame of the bike with an ohmmeter. | ||
| Dannybuell |
Fast1075 - The closest thing to that idea is a molded stator. That idea is not good, the stator is the heat source. enclose the heat source with a blanket? unmolded stators are the way most stators are built. Dissipating heat is the challenge. Oil jets spraying down on the stator might do it. I do not understand the HD wiring harness/flash idea of knocking off a few legs to reduce heat. Does the ECM continuously move heat assignments around the stator as the bike is running to let the heated legs cool down? | ||
| Tpoppa |
I do not understand the HD wiring harness/flash idea of knocking off a few legs to reduce heat. Does the ECM continuously move heat assignments around the stator as the bike is running to let the heated legs cool down? No. The harness shuts off 1 leg (1/3 of the stator). The relay is connected to 1 particular leg. IMO, Shutting off 1 leg, doesn't help the other 2/3 of the stator. The stator is oil cooled. Based on photos I've seen of failed stators, It seems that consistent oil flow does not cover the entire stator. (Message edited by tpoppa on June 18, 2010) | ||
| Reepicheep |
I suspect the laminated ferrous plate core of the stator transfers heat really well, so shutting down 1/3 of the stator does significantly cool the other two legs. Maybe not quite by 1/3rd, but probably by at least 1/4. Ferris on the other hand, gets cranky when we laminate him. And while he does dissipate heat well, he smells bad after a day or two of it, so we have to shut him down for a shower.  Does the Rotax motor still use a shunt regulator? The better solution would be to change to a non shunt regulator. That will take a lot of heat out of the system. Maybe a "smart" one with a built in algorithim balancing battery charge with modeled stator temperature. I wouldn't rule out a molded stator either. Unless the copper is melting, the problem isn't stator heat, it is stator insulation breakdown caused by stator heat. So a molded stator, with an epoxy that can withstand significantly higher temperatures than the coating on that stator now, might solve the problem. Fun stuff to think about. With a $600 part, there ought to be a lot of options. That'll buy some pretty fancy coatings and technology. | ||
| Curve_carver |
I disagree with the stator harness fix. Removing 1 leg will only put load on the other two thus creating more heat on those two. Keep in mind that the 08 stators are 18 pole. 09 are 12 pole. So instead of using 18 like a 08 stator.Now with this harness. " so called cure". you are using 8 . I thought about taking my harness off. I believe if I have a bad Insulated stator it's gonna go either way. Id rather keep the heat dispersed over the 12 poles. 3200 miles waiting for mine to go. I think the new stator of 09 is just a bad design. | ||
| Tpoppa |
Removing 1 leg will only put load on the other two thus creating more heat on those two. I'm not sure I agree with that. From what I've read, the power produced is based on RPM, not based on the draw from the amount of power actually needed. Power above what is needed is put to ground by the regulator. I don't believe that turning off 1 leg means that more power is generated by the other 2, rather the output for the entire stator is reduced by 1/3 (approximately). I think the new stator of 09 is just a bad design. That I agree with. | ||
| Reepicheep |
If it has permanent magnets, the amount of power it generates is simply a factor of force imparted times the distance it is imparted over. This is work, and can be measured in watts. The "amount of force" imparted is the amount of force the magnets encounter when rotating around the coils. The amount of force the magnets encounter moving past the coil is determined by the amount of current output times the amount of voltage output. Again, you can measure this in watts. The amount of current is determined by the amount of resistance on the load on the coils, and the number of turns of the coils. So effectively, by disconnecting one of the coils, you do the following for that coil: 1) You make the resistance go to infinity. 2) Which means the current goes to zero. 3) Power is Volts times Current, so its something times nothing, so it's nothing (0 watts). 4) Zero watts output from the coil is zero watts of mechanical work being imparted on the magnets by that coil. So if you "opened up" 1/3 of your coils, your coil does 1/3 less work, but of course outputs 1/3 less power. Likewise, it will be flowing 1/3 less current and therefore getting 1/3 the internal heat. Danny and Tpoppa point out, that cool spot will be localized to just the coils that were "switched open" and unloaded. Though as I point out, those coils are in very close thermal proximity, so while it isn't perfect, it probably does help quite a bit with the other coils that are still doing work. It's the difference between trying to boil a pot of water in driving wind on a subzero day, or boiling it on a hot day in your kitchen. | ||
| Reepicheep |
And just for clarification to minimize confusion, this is different then how a car alternator works. Those have two sets of coils, one to become a magnet, and one to be moved through that magnetic field to generate current. The car alternator varies the strength of the magnet field coils based on how much power it needs to put out. In effect, it makes the "magnet" stronger or weaker as necessary. So in that scenario, Curve_carver is exactly correct. Removing half the coils would just make the other half of the coils work twice as hard. The car alternator approach is in theory a little more efficient, and you aren't doing work just to throw it away. It can't start generating current without some other source of current though... you need a little bit of battery to create a little bit of field, so you can make a little more power, so you can make a little more field... The other downside of the alternator is that it need brushes to transfer the power to the "spinny part". On he Buell motor, the permanent magnets are, well permanent, so they don't need power, and those are the "spinny bits". On a car, the spinning parts are just coils also, and need current to become little electro magnets, so you need to get power to them. This is done with conductive spring loaded brushes that ride on connections on the shaft. | ||
| Tpoppa |
This is a photo of a stator that failed after a harness upgrade. This is not my stator, but my 09 is at Western Reserve and my stator probably looks just like this one. http://w4t3pw.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p8HlL-VvdB3O NZ4_FL3pEeFgwoqfHmUA9SD_XLaNXciGcQBEex27Ll5Dc49pMK xy20o6BvRUI1t_t8M91hsJzTynnxZj_liQg/stator.jpg?psi d=1 You can see the cooler area. This is presumably centered in the section that is shut off by the relay. Ultimately, the stator still failed. | ||
| Tibman260 |
Tpoppa, is that a new failed stator that failed after the new harness was put in? ie Was a brand new stator installed AFTER the stator harness was installed and then the stator failed? People need to realize that this is a problem from day one, meaning the stator is being damaged from the heat starting with the first mile. So, if you get the new harness, the original stator can still fail since it is already damaged. While the amount of current does go up per phase when one leg is dropped, the most important factor is that the heat generated by the two on phases is significantly less that the heat generated by all three phases on at normal current. | ||
| Tpoppa |
The stator pictured was not the original stator. It was a replacement that was installed at the same time as the harness upgrade. | ||
| Brumbear |
then why don't the 08's have a problem the oiling is different or what? | ||
| Tpoppa |
The 08 stator is physically smaller. It generates less power and therefore less heat. It's possible that the dimensions of the 08 allow for more consistent oil flow, or it may be that it just doesn't get as hot. | ||
| Curve_carver |
Tpoppa I think I talked to the same gentleman that had that problem after the harness. He's on his 2nd stator after the harness was replaced | ||
| Tpoppa |
I can't take credit for this comparison. But I have permission to post. New 09 Stator http://w4t3pw.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pbgrmUzbLSez gQzq3Hz9lr8ivyZ9sPJRGC8U2b5owWqxOxcHV8hhGfHD4fefEl FwEBbZjRte1vBTbYk0dizHJbOUoYRSkpvLk/09%20New%20Sta tor.jpg?psid=1 New 08 Stator for comparison. The 08 is of higher quality. The winding and coating appear to to much more consistent. http://w4t3pw.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pau7mi1SqAG8 ljiD3vCt85fXwduqaPo0YuGT7irG0gCF4r1BDpaaLJ6AGZg0LC B9Wij7igWU599mxMTHkvdyC05pEo286mkyQ/08stator%20exa mple.jpg?psid=1 Failed 09 pre-harness upgrade http://w4t3pw.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pQOuJUV3LpdR grglwNPX4TjGZ_NZrOHGkrxRcmIiyDKmiRRuwg2z44q1GAQcko sZRjxNXQ_T-iAVHuWWSbdd0RAGNjdM-fg7P/09%20failed%20 Stator%20wo%20harness%20typical.jpg?psid=1 Failed 09 post-harness upgrade. Installed at the time of the upgrade, failed after 2k. http://w4t3pw.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7mApvbWnMxt AwaUougrFJ6lfFpylwgm7K1i5RCPqrkF0ZnprYmqPHkA8AHSc6 2rPjY4ZL6kO7Om95LS0ckDezvd1QT0KgSyM/DL%2009%20fail ed%20stator%20w%20P%20C%20harness%202k%20miles.jpg ?psid=1 | ||
| Bigschwerm |
I seen these pics a little while back...you notice how the 09 stator after the harness install is burnt a few of the legs are still good which i assume are the ones that are turned off...proves that even with the harness that it will still cook itself. | ||
| Jbarron |
I think an 08 stator would be worth a try at this point. | ||
| Fast1075 |
Inductance.... | ||
| Kevin_stevens |
People need to realize that this is a problem from day one, meaning the stator is being damaged from the heat starting with the first mile. So, if you get the new harness, the original stator can still fail since it is already damaged. So teach me something - if the stator is "damaged" by excess heat; and then if the harness actually fixes the excess heat before the damage is extensive enough to fail - why would that stator still be prone to failure after the "fix"? Are you saying that the overheating degrades the insulation so that then "normal" (or "fixed") amounts of heat are sufficient to continue the degradation to failure point? Because if that's the case, then *all* of the "fixed harness" stators are likely to fail prematurely, right? KeS (Message edited by kevin_stevens on June 18, 2010) | ||
| Reepicheep |
If this is a fixed field generator with a shunt regulator, how can that be possible? Or is the 1125 not a shunt regulator? |
