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Windrider
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2010 - 10:58 pm: | 
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Trojan,
Nice points but I am sorry, HD simply missed the mark once again on the XR:
- $11K
- 562 lbs dry weight
- poor suspension
If they would just make a nice, simple, light XR750 with some mid grade components on it from the factory they would sell like crazy.
HD has always missed this opportunity and they continue to do so with the current XR1200.
I agree with Court and Patches on this thread. |
Trojan
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2010 - 04:43 am: |
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HD has always missed this opportunity and they continue to do so with the current XR1200
I think you have to look at the XR1200 from the point of view of someone who tradionally wouldn't buy a Harley, and ignore the emotional attachment of the XR badge then it makes more commercial sense. 80-90% of our customers with XR1200's would never buy a H-D usually but were attracted by the look and concept of the XR1200. Some are ex Buell owners who didn't like the XB because it was too small for them and other ssimply want a traditional looking naked bike with vague sporting pretentions.
Either way, it is proving to be a good crossover bike fornon Harley owners and will become a very important model in the H-D lineup I think.
With the introduction of the UK and AMA XR1200 race series I think they will attract yet more non-H-D customers with this bike.
Rather than missing a marketing opportunity I think they have hit quite a rich vein of motorcycle buyers who are fed up with crotch rocket sportsbikes and who want something simpler and fun.
Yes it could be lighter and have better suspension, but most owners accept this and make their own arrangements to improve on the stock bike (just as H-D and Buell owners have always done). We have shown what can be achieved with the XR and there are lots of other people around who have customised their XR's in different ways that satisfy them and make them unique.
Part of the problem is that people seem intent on comparing the XR1200 to the XB when they are not really comparable (especially on Buell forums where emotions are still very raw with regard to H-D in general). It is really akin to comparing the XB12R to a GSXR1000 and coming to the conclusion that the Buell is slow. Although the Buell and XR1200 may share most of the engine it is better to compare it to bikes such as the Triumph Thruxton, Moto Guzzi V7 Classic, Ducati Monster or even the new Norton Commando (against which the XR1200 looks like bargain basement!).
Judge it as a motorcycle in its own right rather than as a Buell replacement and try to ignore the unfortunate XR badging (which has probably been more of a hindrance in the US than elsewhere).
(Message edited by trojan on April 21, 2010) |
Gater
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2010 - 10:09 pm: |
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The XR1200 is not a bad looking bike. I have not ridden one so I can't really determine if I would like the bike or not. My XB12 has a larger fuel tank and gets better fuel mileage and puts out more horsepower. Aside form putting a Buell motor in the XR1200 what would have to be done to get Buell performance out of the XR1200 motor? |
Buellerxt
| | Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 12:39 am: |
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Well presented posts, Trojan. I agree with you. The XR, to me, not having an anti HD bias and axe to grind, is a nice bike. A cool standard that is sharp looking, quick, and smooth. I agree with you on the set of bikes you chose to use as comparisons but having said that it reminds me of my Uly as well. Ths. |
Trojan
| | Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 05:05 am: |
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Aside form putting a Buell motor in the XR1200 what would have to be done to get Buell performance out of the XR1200 motor?
The Xr1200 motor is effectively the same as the XB12 with a few small differences. There are now oil feeds directly to the cylinder heads (which are otherwise the same as the XB in regards to valve size etc), which is an improvement on the XB in my view.
The limiting factors on the XR which give it less bhp than the XB12 are the very small airbox and the restrictive and very heavy stock exhaust. The official bhp figures give 100 for the XB12 and 90 for the XR (at the crankshaft), and it is reasonable easy to get the bike to produce around 90bhp at the rear wheel (ours gives 91bhp) with just a pipe/filter/fueller.
The single biggest factor that makes the Xr less sporty than the XB though is the weight of the bike and relatively crude suspension (especially the rear). Changing the rear shocks and raising the rear of the bike by around 2 " makes a huge difference and the bike handles and feels very much like an early tube frame M2 once this is done. Front forks are a different matter and for some strange reason H-D decided to fit a weird setup with a damper in one leg and just a spring in the other. Why they did that when there is a huge choice of decent OE forks available is beyond me, but I suspect it is down to price.
Race Tech & Traxxion Dynamics both offer a full replacement cartridge based fork kit (at a price) or thee are Hyperpro or Ohlins spring kits available to improve the stock forks. The best option is to buy the BPF forks from the Xr1200X, which are superb adn far beter than anything fitted to a Buell to date. These are the same as fitted to the latest GSXR1000 and ZX6 and are probably the best forks available for road bikes without spending huge sums of money.
I firmly believe that the bike originally developed by Scot Parker etc was actually the XR1200X and not the base XR1200 that we got first, which seems to be an accountants version of the XR1200 and not the full blooded rider version 
Almost every component on the XR1200 is heavier than it needs to be and can be swapped or ditched for something lighter (the top triple tree weighs 2.5kg which is ridiculous for alloy!). Shedding weight is easy but can be costly once you get the bug! |
Xbrfirebolt
| | Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 09:56 am: |
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My local dealer had the HD demo truck with the 2010 models back in Sept. last year. I rode almost all the bikes, as I got to go on every ride they did for 2 days. I rode the XR1200, and I have to say it was a fun bike to ride. Now you can't compare it to my '08 XB12R, but to the rest of HD's bikes, it's a hoot to ride. If it's got 2 wheels, I'm game to ride it!
I have to agree with Trojan. |
Firstbuell
| | Posted on Friday, April 23, 2010 - 05:47 pm: |
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I just heard that Jeremy McWilliams will be riding an XR1200 in the UK series |
Imonabuss
| | Posted on Friday, April 23, 2010 - 10:02 pm: |
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Man, he is getting old. How the mighty have fallen. |
Trojan
| | Posted on Friday, April 30, 2010 - 07:13 am: |
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Man, he is getting old. How the mighty have fallen.
Jeremy has ridden and still rides all sorts of bikes in his 'gun for hire' career. Why should it be a further fall to ride a H-D in this series than it was to ride an XBRR at Daytona (which was hardly a glorious success!)?
Also riding in the UK XR1200 series will be Roland Sands, Darren James, Sean Emmett and a host of other top riders. Have they all fallen down or have they spotted what will be an exciting new series and a golden opportunity?
(Message edited by trojan on April 30, 2010) |
46champ
| | Posted on Saturday, May 01, 2010 - 11:23 am: |
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Matt how much does the XR frame weigh and how much lighter do you think it would be if it was chrome molly? |
Davegess
| | Posted on Saturday, May 01, 2010 - 01:00 pm: |
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I don't think it is that far to fall. He was never on a first rate Moto GP ride anyway. Somebody is paying him to ride.
Like my friends buddy said when he baseball playing career ended and he was offered a coaching job in the low minors, "why not, otherwise I would have to get a job".
Jeremy never made the really big money so riding race bikes for a living is a heck of not better than selling insurance! |
Firstbuell
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2010 - 11:44 am: |
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hey! I've sold lotsa insurance [& other financial products, too]
racing is MUCH more fun than working !! |
Trojan
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 08:24 am: |
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Matt how much does the XR frame weigh and how much lighter do you think it would be if it was chrome molly?
I don't know the weight of the frame I'm afraid. All of the XL frames are certainly heavier since they went for the rubber mounted motor so I'm sure a cro-moly solid mount frame would be far lighter and more rigid. Rickman used to offer a frame kit for the XL motors that was very similar to your idea. |
Firstbuell
| | Posted on Thursday, May 13, 2010 - 11:30 pm: |
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RE: JMcW
http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2010/Jeremy+McWillia ms+to+be+team+manager |
Cityxslicker
| | Posted on Saturday, December 04, 2010 - 09:59 pm: |
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for the cash I would go mini Hyper from Duc , in orange for the win. |
Andymnelson
| | Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2011 - 11:27 am: |
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quote:The XR1200 is not a bad a hideous looking bike.
Fixed it for ya.  |
Desertfox
| | Posted on Sunday, April 24, 2011 - 11:13 am: |
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If it's getting non-Harley people to buy Harleys, then I think that it's a resounding success. It's not really the styling I like, but it doesn't look like it's poorly made or anything. (To be honest though, if I couldn't have my X1, I would want a street triple)
From what I can tell, HD needs to try to appeal to a new or younger audience. Older people tend to freak out over innovative designs and so HD has had to keep their bikes rather primitive to be able to keep their usual customer base. Maybe this XR will open up new doors. |
Syonyk
| | Posted on Sunday, April 24, 2011 - 07:30 pm: |
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Well... yes, unless Harley wants to die out with the boomers...
Personally, I think they should go ahead & "piss off their core group" - they can keep building air cooled 45 degree powered couches that brag about 70 ft/lbs of torque (ZOMG!), at least until the old guys buy their last Harley & die out, but they should build something competent as well.
If they'd actually done some proper marketing of Buell, and had dealerships that cared, they would have had something younger riders wanted. They just had to stop thinking of Buells as "Something younger kids will buy until they grow up and buy a Real Motorcycle(TM)." Sorry, sales dude, I'm not going to go from a 1125R to a Ultra Classic Wide Dyno Glide XK1200 Super. No matter how powerful you claim it is, it's not a fast bike, and it doesn't corner. Yes, I know Buell was shut down, but no, I'm not going to buy a Harley.
The XR1200 is an OK bike, but I was really underwhelmed when I ride one. In some ways it was decent - it felt like a modern incantation of an old UJM, which is cool, but it just wasn't anything exciting to ride.
I have to think Harley could still get some good engineers & build a good bike. I just don't think they have any leadership that cares to stick their neck out when they can just keep doing what they've been doing and not rock the boat.
(Message edited by Syonyk on April 24, 2011) |
Desertfox
| | Posted on Monday, April 25, 2011 - 10:39 am: |
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Short sighted business planning. By the time the company tanks, the people who run it will have enough money to just walk away and let it die.
I'm more of a philosopher than a businessman, but I think in many cases businesses are run by committee. Anything that is run by committee produces buckets of compromises. Furthermore, these committees are voted into place by share holders who know nothing about motorcycles (in this case) and only care about stock value increases. If you run a company into the ground, you can see amazing profits for a couple of years at the cost of the longevity of the company.
The people who run things don't care much about longevity, though, because their livelihood is not tied into the business they run. They CAN make the company go bankrupt and still keep their pockets full.
If that same company was run by just one guy, he would be tied to the company and go bankrupt with it. It would be in his own best interest to think long term and take risks now and then.
this is mostly conjecture, but I think the stock exchange itself is the problem. People should be individually responsible for their companies. |
Thejosh
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - 09:20 pm: |
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Harley go bankrupt? If that happens, I hope Brunswick doesn't pick them up! I don't think I can handle another era of "bowling ball Harleys". |
Merc16
| | Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2011 - 12:30 pm: |
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Desertfox, the "the one guy tied to the company" sounds like Triumph and John Bloor to me. |
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