| Author | Message | ||
     Thefleshrocket |
I changed out the factory fill in my 1125r with 50 miles on the bike. I like to get the initial break-in metals out of the engine as soon as possible. Since it was winter, I used 10w40. At 680 miles, I drained the oil and sent a sample off to Blackstone Labs for analysis and filled the motor with 10w40 with the intent of switching to synthetic at 1500 miles. The analysis came back with no problems but the aluminum count was a little above average and the oil had thinned to approximately 5w30 due to a bit of blowby fuel in the oil. The slightly elevated aluminum could be due to break in metals but I wonder if it's due to the oil thinning out like that. Ambient high temps are now in the upper 70s and while I think that would be fine if the oil stayed at 10w40 thickness, I don't want to risk it thinning to a 5w30 by the time I switch to synthetic at 1500 miles. So I'm trying to decide if I should switch to synthetic now (the bike has 1000 miles on it so about 320 miles on the oil) or if I should dump in some dino 20w50 and leave that in for a thousand miles or so. Who has switched to synthetic at or before 1000 miles, and how did it work out for you? If anyone has actually had their oil analyzed, that would be great info. | ||
| Gofastalot99 |
I'm switching to Redline at 620 miles. I switched my Twincam Road King to synth at less than 500 miles with no problems, it doesn't use a drop. | ||
| Xnoahx |
Anytime you want. Its not going to hurt anything | ||
| Painless |
Rotax is bulletproof... stop worrying. go synthetic. (anal~lysis?) | ||
| Tbones1125r |
BTW - Your 1125r should've come from the factory with Syn3...no need to switch to synthetic... | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
Tbones, I'm pretty sure the consensus is that 1125Rs and CRs shipped with regular HD 20W50 in them, not synthetic. I don't recall what the proof was, however. I probably should have taken a sample when I dumped the factory fill at 50 miles to see what it really was. I've got some oil filters on order, so I'm just going to switch to synthetic 15W50 as soon as they arrive. I may well send a sample of the currently-installed oil off to Blackstone as well just to see what viscosity and aluminum look like, though I'm not sure how much can really be learned from oil with just 320 miles on it. | ||
| Tbones1125r |
Hmmm...Mine must've been the exception. I asked that question when I picked my 1125r up from the dealer as it was a demo with 300 miles on it. The tech that prepped my bike - or at least washed it - said that it had Syn3 in it. He could've been blowing smoke. Quite possible as I went through the bike at home and filled the coolant to its proper level and changed the oil. I'm still running Syn3 but will most likely switch to another brand of Syn...I ran Red Line in my Ducati Monster... | ||
| Gofastalot99 |
I think mine may have had Syn3 since it had a bit of a Syn3 tint to it. The HD20W-50 did not have the same tint at all. The HD was dark amber while the factory fill was much lighter. | ||
| Vinb |
First off its break in oil in the bike when you get it and changing it to soon is just dumb. Now your motor wont wear in the way it was planed to and yes it was synthetic oil. So all you did was drain out you're break in oil that's synthetic than put in regular oil and now your going to put synthetic in it. WTF man I just hope you get a long life out of the bike good luck (Message edited by vinb on April 14, 2010) | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
I had Blackstone test a sample from my track-only '08 XB12R. Bike history: the first oil change had been done at 122 miles and H-D 360 was used. The second oil change was done at 466 miles and Amsoil MCV 20W-50 was used. The third oil change was done at 1,052 miles and Amsoil MCV 20W-50 was used. The fourth oil change was done at 1,740 miles, and this is where the oil sample was taken. The tested oil had 12 months/688 miles of use (6 track days). Here's what Blackstone had to say: PETER: The first sample from your Buell is a good one. We found a little extra copper and silicon, though neither is really anything to worry about. Copper is probably from some lingering wear-in at bronze parts or it may be high due to the racing. As long as it doesn't increase significantly next time, we won't worry about it. Silicon may be from sealer used during build-up and should drop next time as well, but check the air filter just in case. The TBN was strong at 11.6, so the active additive held up nicely. 1.0 is low. Try going to 8 or 10 track days or 15 months on the next oil. Here are the relevant numbers: Copper 52 (30) (=average) Silicon 17 (12) Calcium 3057 (2691) [detergent] Phosphorous 1126 (1067) [anti-wear additive] Zinc 1356 (1355) [anti-wear additive] SUS Viscosity @210F 91.8 (82-95) cSt Viscosity @ 100C 18.42 (16.0-19.4) Flashpoint 400F (>385F) TBN 11.6 To say I was impressed would be an understatement. This oil sample came from an air-cooled track-only bike ridden for 688 miles on a 2-mile, 14 turn road course in Florida- and the oil wasn't changed for a year. I now have proof of just how good Amsoil really is. Imagine- Blackstone is recommending that I try a year and a half, 8-10 track day oil change interval. It doesn't get much better than that! This experiment also shows that you can get a lot of information from an oil sample in just a few hundred miles. I would certainly be concerned if the oil I was using had lost an entire viscosity grade within a few hundred miles- that's just scary. Oh, and don't forget- H-D's SYN3 branded oil is semi-synthetic, not fully synthetic (even if they charge as much as other full syn oils). Choose an oil, have it tested, and you'll get your answers- I got mine. | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
Vinb, do you hold a degree in chemical engineering? Have you ever even sent an oil sample off for testing? Do you have any real experience on this topic whatsoever? I didn't think so, so how about you think twice before commenting that something you don't know about is "dumb"? The fact is that the majority of the break-in metals are released into the oil during the first 40-50 miles of riding. Doing a very early oil change prevents those metals from floating around inside the motor for more than is necessary. I always do frequent oil changes with non-synthetic oil during the initial break-in period to minimize the amount of metal in the oil. I have done this on several brand new bikes and always had good results. | ||
| Afhans |
I switched to Amsoil MCV 20W-50 at 620 and the dealer still gave me the warranty stamp. Everything is running great and I am at about 1,200 miles. | ||
| 03fatboy |
I have ran Amsoil in my Harley with 30000 problem free miles on it, and at 620 miles, I changed to Amsoil on the 25r as well. I am a creature of habit and this has been a good habit for me. MCV20W-50 is what I will always run as long as I can get my hands on it. | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
Redbuelljunkie, I think it's safe to say you could go a lot more than 8-10 track days on that oil. Since the TBN is so high, the oil additives are not anywhere near worn out. The main concern is the metals in the oil--if they're floating around in the oil, then there is the potential for them to cause engine wear. So in reality, the oil is probably fine for a couple dozen track days, but you might need to change it because the filter isn't doing a sufficient job of removing particles from the oil. | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
Sounds like a lot of you have gone to synthetic at 620 miles with no problems. I'll definitely switch now. Thanks for the replies! | ||
| Greenflash |
Hi, Fleshrocket, you voiced the same question that I have had; when is it truly broken in and time to switch to syn? The manual assumes 620 miles of course, and the Motoman method says all the way to 1500 miles. I'm switching at 800-1000. In my opinion, vinb, I think you stated it backwards. First, I have read a lot of threads that state HD 20-50 dino comes in the bike. (and only Screaming Eagle bikes come with Syn3) I believe that, but didn't analyze the oil. Vinb, if you had dumped your oil at 50 miles, you would have seen as many have noted that it is very dark grey in color, with a thick grey paste on the magnetic drain plug. I own two 1125s and this was true for both at 50 miles. Now that's mostly not metal particles from break-in, just a concentration of moly assembly lube that Buell apparently uses more of. My two Ducatis, for example, never had this oil color so early. So I agree with others that it is a great idea to change it early. I changed again at 300 miles to remove more break-in metal, again using HD 20W50 dino oil. And I do think (ala Motoman) that dino instead of synthetic oil during break-in is better at ring seating. I also tried to use an acceleration/deceleration method to help the rings seat better. I don't necessarily agree with the high-rpm Motoman recommendations so I kept the rpms under 6K. Also tried to heat cycle some by letting it cool periodically. I have gone to Syn3 (semi-syn blend) oil at about 800 miles on my CR (only because I had bought some earlier and want to use it up). I expect that about 1500-2000 miles from now, I'll switch to my oil of choice, which is Motul V300 full syn (Type V Ester). Much better oil IMO for $10-$13 a quart and the bike should shift smoother. Amsoil sounds very good too. The above is just my HO, based on research , but it has worked fine in breaking in six new bikes since 2002. That includes my Duc 999 and 900ss, and now my new Buells. It may be overkill, but I'm satisfied with it and all the bikes run flawlessly. | ||
| Vinb |
I didn't know I needed a degree to speak on here. So I take it you must have one so why would you bother asking that question if you seem to already know what to do. | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
Greenflash, I didn't specifically mention Motoman, but I find his break-in recommendations, especially oil type and change interval, to be logical and well-advised. However, it would be irresponsible to admit to following Motoman's recommendations for engine load and RPM during break-in, at least on a bike that one wants to maintain one's warranty. For those who don't know what we're talking about: http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
Vinb, you don't need a degree, but you do need to refrain from making insulting comments when you don't have the knowledge or experience to back up those comments. | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
I sent an email to Blackstone asking them if they thought that the low oil viscosity due to the fuel in the oil was responsible for the slightly elevated aluminum content. I also asked if I should switch to synthetic now, at 1000 miles, or if I should stick with the existing dino oil until 1500 miles and change it to synthetic then. Here was their reply: (In short, they think that the extra fuel is from the rings seating, and that the extra aluminum is from the break-in process, so no need to change to synthetic 50W at this time.) Yes, I'd say it's possible, but not all that likely. I'm not all that familiar with a Buell and which parts are aluminum--you probably know better than I do. But if they recommend a 20W/50 and the oil was thin enough to qualify as a 5W/30, then the oil may not have been able to adequately protect an aluminum part, which may have led to some extra wear. But as you know, the engine is still going through wear-in, and it's normal to find some metals reading high from that process. I'm actually surprised that more metals aren't reading high from break-in, so it appears that the engine is moving nicely through the wear-in stage. I think your original plan sounds fine, and I'd stick with it, though if you're nervous and want to switch to a 50W oil now, that should be okay too since the engine is moving quickly through wear-in. The reason I'd probably stick with the original plan is I suspect at least some of the aluminum is from wear-in, so it should drop on its own next time. And the fuel could be from rings seating. Even if the light viscosity is causing the high aluminum, that metal is not high enough to be all that worrisome -- I don't think there's any major damage going on, and if you still have high aluminum next time, then you can go ahead and switch grades as planned and see if that helps aluminum. It's really up to you, I guess. I just wanted to let you know that aluminum, at just 6 ppm higher than average, is not very worrisome. 6 ppm of anything is not a lot in the grand scheme of things. Sincerely, I was going to leave the bike parked until I my new filters arrived, but I think I will go ahead and keep riding it. I'll put about 300 more miles on the oil. change it at 1250-1300 miles, and send it in for analysis to see what actually happened. (I bought a bulk pack of analysises, which you pay for five and get the sixth free. Not a bad deal.) (Message edited by thefleshrocket on April 14, 2010) | ||
| Greenflash |
Thanks for the info, rocket. This oil analysis stuff is interesting. On my CR, the Syn3 I put in for 800-2000 miles on the odo isn't as slippery as full synthetic Motul so I guess that's fine. Also, I seem to remember that we have a nickel plated cylinder liner; perhaps there is less ring seating needed than would occur on honed cylinders in the good old days? On my other 1125R (in Vegas), I changed at 50 and 300 (a number of people here have done the 300 intermediate oil change BTW). I may go another 1000 or so on dino and then straight to Motul V300 20W50 at 1300 on the odo. The break-in regimen I have tried to use is either accelerating or decelerating, lots of gear changes, no constant speeds. I have read that twisty canyon roads are great for varying engine loads, but just try to find that in South Florida! |
