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Buell Forum » Quick Board Archives » Archive through August 25, 2003 » Is it disrespectful to refer to a Buell as a Harley? » Archive through June 18, 2003

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Author Message   Blake Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 04:17 pm:        I saw on RRW reently some comments by Buell racers referring to their motorcycles as "Harleys." That disappoints me greatly. Here's why... Is a Buell a Harley?... A few boring observations... 1. What does it say under "Make" on your motorcycle registration card? 2. HDI owns subsidiaries HDMC and BMC. HDMC designs and builds Harely-Davidson motorcycles under the direction of Mr. Davidson and fellow senior management of HDMC. BMC designs and builds Buell motorcycles under the direction of Mr. Buell and fellow senior management of BMC. 3. How do you think Mr. Buell would answer this question? 4. If on a speeding ticket, an officer identified a Buell as a "Harley-Davidson" under vehicle "Make", there is not a judge in America who would not dismiss the charges. 5. What percentage of parts, either by number or by weight, do current model Buells share with Harleys? 6. The first commercially available Buells (RR/RS/RSS models) had far more in common with a Harley than do current Buell models. The first commercially available Buells were in no way corporately tied to the reigns of HDI. 7. According to the HDI legal department themselves, to be considered a Harley-Davidson motorcycle a motorcycle MUST be comprised of the following original Harley-Davidson components... frame, engine cases, transmission. If any of those three components are not original HD parts, the bike cannot legally be called a "Harley". So there you have it, even HDI recognizes that a Buell is NOT a Harley. I happen to enjoy riding Harley-Davidson motorcycles. Used to thoroughly enjoy trading rides with a good buddy who used to ride an '00 Night Train. If for some reason you feel compelled to call your Buell a "Harley", I can understand why. However, if that continues to be your preference, I suggest you remove all reference to "Buell" from your bike and its documentation, replace it with "Harley-Davidson", then next time you need service, take it to a non-Buell Harley-only dealership and see what they tell you. Ask them for a set of brake pads or an air filter for your "Harley". Ask the non-Beull dealer for a set of race components for your "Harley". Do they even carry tires for your "Harley"? How about acccessories? If and when HDI decides to fully integrate BMC with HDMC, and start badging all the bikes as "Harley-Davidson" motorcycles, then your brand insecurities can be placated, but only if you then purchase a new Harley-Davidson sport bike and trade or sell your Buell. My opinion... Calling your Buell a "Harley" reveals an irrational cliquish insecurity about the motorcycle you ride. But mainly, calling your Buell a "Harley" totally disrespects the efforts, ingenuity, and vision of the man and the company that designs and builds Buell American Motorcycles. And that is totally uncool; give credit where credit is due. My normal response when asked what kind of bike I ride is to say "A Buell." If met with a confused look, I then explain the history of the mark and that it is now a wholly (98% anyway) owned subsidiary of Harley-Davidson Inc. who also owns Harley-Davidson Motor Company. Give credit and respect where it is due.   Mikej Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 04:31 pm:        Is it wrong to call a Buick a GMC?   Thunder Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 04:39 pm:        Didn't know Buick made trucks?   Mikej Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 04:54 pm:        They don't, but they're made by General Motors Corporation, aka: GMC. But you knew that, didn't you. Maybe I should have said it was similar to calling an Olds a Chevy.   Stevedplumber Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 05:00 pm:        Ever heard of a Buick Rendezvous or a Buick Rainier?   Crusty Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 05:12 pm:        How important is it?   Thunder Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 05:30 pm:        I didn't purchase a Harley, but I did purchase a Buell. Is the bike assembled in Kansas City or the York plant? When someone calls my S3 a Harley it usually shows their lack of knowledge of both Brands.   Sarodude Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 05:33 pm:        It is TOTALLY disrespectful to Buell. Buell existed before Harley bought 'em. Buell builds bikes to the beat of a COMPLETELY different drummer than Harley. To me, the Harley motor argument is a touch silly. Here's the analogy: You have a failing heart (750 cc square four 2 stroke). To be kind to the developments of Erik Buell, let's say that it took a bullet (AMA Rules) as opposed to simply failing due to bad genetics (or design). You get a transplant - and you somehow find out that it came from, oh, I dunno, a baboon. Does that make you a monkey? Does an XL motor then make a Buell a Harley? SO - if the above argument makes moot the point of the engine, here's the other analogy... Mercedes bought Dodge. When you drive a Ram 3500, are you driving a Mercedes? The GM vehicle argument is not a good one - because those cars share MASSIVE amounts of components - not just a heart. The differences frequently amount to badges and a couple of body panels. They aren't designed as unique entities. This stuff is totally subjective - but that's how I STRONGLY feel. -Saro   Jssport Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 05:37 pm:        Then why does Buell refer to themselves as HD ?? http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=4062&post=174219#POST 174219   Blake Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 06:56 pm:        Jss, The point you raise is that since the Buell customer service people work for HDMC not BMC, then Buell motorcycles are Harleys. The answer is of course no. But good job in digging up a counterpoint. Unfortunately BCS is not under the control of BMC. If Mercedes handled customer service for Dodge, would a Dodge Viper then be a Mercedes? The answer is no, same as wrt your point. Side note... If HDI is giving Buell the responsibility to perform, they need to also give them the authority to deal with their end customers.   Crank Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 06:58 pm:        Is it an MZ or a Yamaha? Is it a Bimota or (pick your Japanese engine of choice)? Just about every European "specialty" manufacturer uses outsourced engines in their frames. To me the brand of motorcycle a person owns/drives is predicated by the company who designed and assembled the bike. If I wanted a Harley I'd purchased a Sportster. I own a Buell. Not that any of this really matters, just food for thought.   Jssport Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 07:22 pm:        Well, this really goes back to the heart of our disagreements,.. so this will vear off-topic. Reguardless on how we view the situation, the world sees Buells as Harley Sport Bikes. HD has been given several breaks by AMA in recent years to the point of some saying HD is a favored company, too much favored say some motorcyclists. To give Buell's a giant displacement break over others re-enforces this belief. For Buell to stand alone... then it must "Stand Alone". or we could go the other way..... Luke,... I am your Father !.!.!... Join me on the Darkside and together we shall rule the known galaxy,   Jssport Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 07:23 pm:        Search your hearts for this question: Where would Buell be if it were not for HD ?   Court Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 07:44 pm:        >>>>If HDI is giving Buell the responsibility to perform, they need to also give them the authority Volumes have been penned about the relationship between authority and responsibilty. The science and practice is well documented. I hope someone is at least looking at the Buell Customer Service picture. They've done much good, come far, and have tremendous potential. There will, however, come a time when an objective view of the benefits of cuddling and the benefits of appearing "different in every sense" both need to be optimized. It's possible. Let's see if HD, wearing the glasses they are, can see it....others do. In my own mind, Rich Teerlink had the clearest vision of what BCS could be. Court   S320002 Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 08:29 pm:        More food for thought. Ford bought Jaguar. Does that mean that a Jaguar is no longer a Jaguar but is a Ford? Greg   Turnagain Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 09:10 pm:        Nope, it's not a Harley. But like the logo with the 'heart', I'd like to see them also go back and use the 'Powered By ...' There's a lot of name recognition there, plus if they hung some tassels on the bars, they might get some respect from the folks back in the garage. KIDDING DAMNIT!(about the tassels) Steve(2)   Blake Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 12:58 am:        Irrelevant questions skirting the issue are... irrelevant. Some of them would make good topics of their own though. (hint... jss... ) I don't agree that the world sees Buells as Harley Sport bikes. Not if they know anything about the history of Buell. I certainly don't see them that way.   Josh_ Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 01:10 am:        >More food for thought. Ford bought Jaguar. Does that mean that a Jaguar is no longer a Jaguar but is a Ford? How 'bout when GM starts sticking Saabs onto Subaru chassis/engine platforms later this year?   Bykergeek Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 06:49 am:        Not disrespecting Erik, his team and all their hard work but brand identification seems to be a unique American quirk. Is a Honda (car) and an Acura the same? In the US, the answer is a firm Hell-No! but in Europe, Acura models carry the Honda badge. Would I buy a Buell if it carried a Harley badge? The answer is a Hell-Yes because Erik and co. make a great machine. The reality that it carries a Buell name just makes it cooler. edited by bykergeek on June 18, 2003   Mikej Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 09:18 am:        "Mercedes bought Dodge. When you drive a Ram 3500, are you driving a Mercedes? " I saw a Dodge ram a Mercedes once, the Mercedes lost. "Ford bought Jaguar. Does that mean that a Jaguar is no longer a Jaguar but is a Ford? " Some think so, some think they simply found their illegitimate parents. And on last night's news it was mentioned that some business investor analysts have down-graded H-D stock from "buy" to one notch lower. They think sales will falter this year. (Yeah, yeah, I know, new topic, yah, uh huh, okay, later maybe.)   Chainsaw Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 09:19 am:        Gentlemen: Look close at the base of the jugs on the Firebolt...what's that graphic molded on there? The Harley-Davidson Bar and Shield I love pointing that out to guys that call mine a rice rocket.   Sarodude Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 09:53 am:        WRT the Honda / Acura thing: Acura is purely a marketing entity Honda created for North America. Acura was CREATED by Honda. Buell was created by Erik Buell. -Saro   Jeromius Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 11:52 am:        So, does that make this Harley a Buell? I mean, it does have a Buell Blast engine.   Mikej Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 12:02 pm:        +Engine, +transmission, -frame. Someone should contact their Legal department and let them know of the violation.   Country Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 01:07 pm:        I ride with two guys from work who ride Harleys. I ride a Buell. They give me shit about my bike and keep asking when I am going to buy a Harley. I tell them over and over again, NEVER!! I am happy with my Buell. Even though they do not wish to own one, they do think it looks a million times better than the "rice rockets". Sounds better too.   Silverbuell Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 01:16 pm:        Guys, I tell the Harley guys I ride a Bastard harley. Its called a Buell!   Cowboy Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 02:39 pm:        I Refer to my Buell as the bike Harley wish they had made.   Mikej Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 02:50 pm:        How about a license frame that says: "What the Sportster should have become"   Stevedplumber Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 02:53 pm:        Someone once referred to my buell as a Harley in disguise.   M2me Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 02:56 pm:        Buell and/or Harley should make a street legal version of those dirt trackers with the Blast engine. I think they would be a big seller. I'd buy one!