| Author | Message | ||
     Eece_ret |
OK so I realize this is throwing a match on gas soaked tinders.... I am looking at performing some modest tuning to my 1125. Currently stock induction and exhaust, probably will not change that for quite awhile. I would however like to cleanse the bike of all the stuff EPA forced upon it... So De-Noid (easy) Get the ECM to believe it never had a noid (remove CEL de-noid error when resistor is installed... The one that comes on when the ECM notices that the TPS does not move when it should) Optimize AFR. Optimize being open to interpretation, so here's mine. Pull any artificial lean conditions Smooth the motor out. I think the bike in its stock state runs A-OK, no real problems (at speed) its in town manners could use a touch of attention most of which I believe to be attributed to the a fore mentioned artificial lean conditions. My options as I can see them are the following. 1: Find a copy of ecmspy (if even possible), setup a WB O2, RPM, TPS, data logger, do it all myself... 2: EBR Pump Gas ECM 3: O** therguys tune. 4: DynoJet Powercommander V with AutoTune (which now supports 1125's with two WB sensors a la harley model...) Honestly I am REALLY leaning towards the PCV but it is DAMN expensive, and maybe not the best thing for my bike. Again I realize this will most likely ignite a flame war, so without going tooooooo deep, let me know your gut reaction. 20 words or less  LOL | ||
| Ratsmc |
It doesn't appear to me that, right now, anyone knows enough to be able to say for certain what the right path is. I certainly don't think that anyone knows enough for this to start some sort of flame war. The only real time things get heated is when the tuners come in and start arguing minutia but your question isn't about those details so hopefully, this will stay on track. (Message edited by ratsmc on February 19, 2010) | ||
| Eece_ret |
hopefully | ||
| Mountainstorm |
Use all 4  I'm not joking. | ||
| Moosestang |
I've ordered the pcv and will have it dyno tuned. The autotune sounds nice, but i'm skeptical and not willing to spend all that jack when a dyno tune will cost me $180. I'll be modifying the intake to use two conical K&N filters and possibly keeping the inner airbox, we shall see. It will probably be a week before I have any dyno sheets. I'm sure i'll have a base line run done first. | ||
| Eece_ret |
Hmm (LOL) didn't think of that... So I guess I would install the EBR ECM, then drop the O** tune on it, then use ecmspy to modify said tune (so now we have tossed two paid for maps) and have the PC V tune the tune (make that 3 maps tossed out).... Hmm a monkey and a football come to mind LOL Seriously though I do see where ecmspy would be helpful in yanking the noid error, as well as a couple other items, then use the PC V to do the fuel adjustments.... | ||
| Mountainstorm |
There is a member here with the Race ECM and the PC V installed and he's happy with the results. Why not throw ECM spy in there and have the Race ECM tweaked by Old Salty Boner on top of it all. Sounds like the more the merrier. Gang bang that Helicon. | ||
| Eece_ret |
...Gang bang... Awesome... ROFL | ||
| Eece_ret |
Although I am not sure what having the Race ECM does for you if you throw a PC V on there. Other than the fuel tables, what is different between stock ECM and Race... (like if it kills all traces of the noid its money well spent in my book... I mean seriously... The PC V + auto tune is about 700 bucks... Whats another 250 (man my wife can never see that footnote...)) | ||
| Justa4banger |
LMAO!!!!!! gang bang the helicon lol I don't know if i would spend the money on auto tune. If you went with a PC V any good tuner could tune the bike, and MAYBE over the course of a year need a touch up on the tune for major climate changes. Any choice could get you where you want to go. if you go with a tunable option, just be ready for the learning curve or have a good tuner lined up. | ||
| Froggy |
According to emails, EBR is going to come out with a Race ECM for the stock setup. I am holding out for that on mine. | ||
| Jdugger |
I have a Daytona Twin Tec fuel module for the 1125r. http://www.daytona-twintec.com/download/Twin_Tuner _2008_Buell_Tech_Note.pdf Make an offer, you might be surprised. | ||
| Redbat |
Jdugger, if you've used the Daytona Twin Tec module, how did you like it? Is it easy to adjust and tune? Can you share your opinion? | ||
| Jdugger |
It's sitting here new in box. | ||
| Tbowdre |
helicon gangbang- THE ultimate PLUG and PLAY solution....LOL! todd | ||
| Justa4banger |
HUH its like a power commander but with out needing a PC... on the other hand if you want to use you pc its nearly the same price... PRetty trick gizmo. it just takes the ECM's injector signals and alters them. its cool that you can use dynojets program values.. good find | ||
| D_adams |
Jdugger -- If it's what I think it is, consider it sold. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Jim(Jdugger), some real good reading on Twintec's web site. Thanks. Something I came across that caught my eye: "In the absence of other limiting factors, maximum engine torque occurs at about 13.5 AFR. Under wide open throttle (WOT) conditions, a richer mixture (12.5 to 12.8 AFR) is generally required "to reduce cylinder head temperatures" and avoid detonation. While the torque curve appears relatively flat"  Now, to me, it looks very much like the torque, consequently the H.P. at "any" given rpm will remain pretty high through about 14.8 to 1 AFR. They(the engineers, apparently) seem to be more concerned with extra heat generated at WFO when using air cooled heads. A problem on HD V-twins but maybe not so much on our Rotax's. I have been under the impression that near 15-1 was awful high for good performance but maybe OK there but no higher. Not to detract from all the great info we have acquired here, and not to praise my EBR race ECM, or berate any others but, I have had a real good experience with mine and its (EBR's) "apparent" higher then some A/F ratios, now do not seem detrimental, and low enough to reduce my operating temps. by 10 degrees AND increase performance throughout the rev. range. Just my observation, of course. | ||
| Redbat |
D_adams, what do you hope it is? | ||
| Justa4banger |
Air cooled or water cooled, 14:1 + is too lean when the engine is under LOAD. Now when cruising or idling,as high as 16:1 is fine. theres no load to work the engine and create excess heat. That graph above pretty much covers N/A engines regardless of cooling or displacement. Nitrous user run a bit richer to keep the extra fuel for cooling and to make sure they have enough just incase of too much nitrous. a lean spike on a nitrous setup costs big bucks..(mid 12's a/f_) Turbo and supercharged setups run even richer to help aid in cooling of the air charge since in the process of compressing the air , the air is super heated. (mid 11's a/f ) | ||
| Justa4banger |
opps (Message edited by justa4banger on February 20, 2010) | ||
| Id073897 |
Now when cruising or idling,as high as 16:1 is fine. theres no load to work the engine and create excess heat. A lean mixture does not create excess heat. That's a myth. Hightest flame and EG temperatures are with a stoich mixture. | ||
| Moosestang |
Turbo and supercharged setups run even richer to help aid in cooling of the air charge since in the process of compressing the air , the air is super heated. (mid 11's a/f ) 10.8:1! I know it's costing a lot of power, but I can't put down the power it makes now, so.........  | ||
| Bob_thompson |
"Now when cruising or idling,as high as 16:1 is fine. theres no load to work the engine and create excess heat." What about 80 mph with a headwind or 20 mph in stop and go traffic which is where many have experience excessive heat? I agree though Kevin(Justa4banger) somewhat, but when you open the throttle and accelerate the ECM senses that and richens up the mixture to accommodate for that extra load to stay nearer stoich. Are you saying that when testing on a dyno you are on a greater load then when on the street or track? Also guys way different maps have to be made to allow for turbo, supercharged or nitrous applications. When I ran my BMW turboed boxer 1000 at Bonneville with 15 lbs. pressure I not only had considerable enriching to the fuel at higher turbo pressure and rpm's but also added alcohol injection to help alleviate detonation. I very well might have been closer to 12 or even 11/1 A/F ratio to keep from melting down pistons which I did once, only once, and thanks to Venolia for keeping the engine in tact. But we are using and considering performance on a normally aspirated engine. Things are different. Thanks to Kevin and most for keeping this discussion civil. Thats how we all learn, me especially. | ||
| Justa4banger |
My comment of cruising is for moderate speeds . 35-65 mph. When cruising at higher rates of speed the MAP sensor will measure the load and a properly tuned ecm should add fuel accordingly. You will see in most maps that demanded a/f target will be richer than stioch when the load isn't maxed but tps is measured at over 50%. for those cells you will see a demanded value richer than stioch to keep the engine running cooler. As for low speed operation, At lower speeds the load isn't very much but you are creating more heat when the ecm trys to run at or a touch above stioch and the cooling isn't quite enough. Actually in all of my experiences, i always richen up on the dyno since loads are higher on the street, and tend to lean things out once on the street/track One big thing i noticed with the race ecm is the engine is running cooler and you can see it with the O2 sensors. instead of the engine trying to run at 15-16:1 a/f the ecm adds a touch more fuel. i generally noticed the race ecm kept idle and cruise well in the low 14's... this helps with the cooling aspect but of course the trade off is fuel economy (not that i care ) as for ID's comment about a myth of leaner mixture will not create more heat, your right to a point. you can run a touch leaner than 14.7:1 and still make more heat...At a certain point though there isn't enough fuel to make more heat, then detonation comes into play from running to lean. Atleast thats my idea of how it works, if this wrong by all means explain it to me... | ||
| Moosestang |
as for ID's comment about a myth of leaner mixture will not create more heat, your right to a point. you can run a touch leaner than 14.7:1 and still make more heat...At a certain point though there isn't enough fuel to make more heat, then detonation comes into play from running to lean. Atleast thats my idea of how it works, if this wrong by all means explain it to me... What he's saying is that 16:1 AFR while cruising is producing less heat than 14.7:1 while cruising. That makes sense to me and you wouldn't need to worry about detonation with very little load on the motor. Everyone knows the stock ecm is running the motor lean while cruising, that's why there's a slight jerking sensation. I've never experienced any pinging with this bike and I haven't read about any either. Wish I could say the same for my old xb9. The pinging on that bike drove me crazy until i cured it with ecmspy. | ||
| Justa4banger |
I don't completely agree with it, but thats fine...as i don't know at what point you start to make less heat from running lean. Actually IDXXXXX never stated whether he meant cruise, idle or WOT, he just plainly stated that leaner is not hotter. IMO thats not Entirely correct. My team runs a 24 hours of lemons car for Texas. We have a 2.3 4 cyl mustang for a race car. its slow, pokey but alot of fun. In our second race we managed 2nd postion out of 120+ cars.. the car was running like CRAP. the starter had died due to heat and we couldn't keep any welds together on the exhaust or keep any bolts tight that were on the exhaust. Keep in mind this was FEB @ 40* temps. the enigne was running way warmer than usual but never over heated. After the race we dynoed the car for the giggles of it, and found it was making 81whp at 4400 rpm and by Redline of 5800rpm it was down to 26whp. it was a pathetic Pile o crap car LOL. the issue was the engine was running lean due to clogged fuel filter. fuel rail pressure was a dismal 20 something PSI. the engine was stupid lean. on the dyno it showed 18.1 a/f at idle and 50 mph cruise and under wot it was at 17:1- off the freakin scale lean... Our starter issues were coming blazin hot header and exhaust system. this also explained why the exhaust was basically falling apart on us. At top rpm yes the engine was in excess of 21/1 and would barely run. My point is this engine ran hot, water temps were up from previous races and the exhaust was all kinds of new colors... the only issue was lack of fuel. luckily the engine was so down on power it couldn't even hurt itself... (i'll look for the dyno) So back to my point at what point in a lean A/F ratio does things start to cool off? I don't remember if we took pictures but the head on that car was chalk white, No one flake of carbon in the chambers , or on the pistons, the exhaust manifold itself was white all the way through. LEAN is mean, but in our case lean was slow as dirt... LAter we added in some fuel and wouldn;t you know it, damn thing made 110whp +. (Message edited by justa4banger on February 20, 2010) | ||
| Id073897 |
When cruising at higher rates of speed the MAP sensor will measure the load and a properly tuned ecm should add fuel accordingly. No, it won't as MAP is more or less disabled. I will step back of course if you provide logs proving the contrary. At lower speeds the load isn't very much but you are creating more heat when the ecm trys to run at or a touch above stioch and the cooling isn't quite enough. Why is cooling insufficient an low speed when it's sufficient for full speed, where fuel supply is about tripled compared to cruise? Actually in all of my experiences, i always richen up on the dyno since loads are higher on the street, and tend to lean things out once on the street/track Would you please elaborate on that? How do you define "load"? One big thing i noticed with the race ecm is the engine is running cooler and you can see it with the O2 sensors. Sensing engine temperature with O2 sensors is, well, a bit unusual. At a certain point though there isn't enough fuel to make more heat, then detonation comes into play from running to lean. Detonations will never occure at partial load cruising from a lean mixture, even if it's leaned out til starting misfiring. | ||
| Justa4banger |
HEY MOOSESTANG.... HOW ABOUT THESE APPLES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Take your stang back to the stable, trust me you don't want none!!!! Oh and i got the 3 min long dyno run on video, if you think you can endur the pain of watching it... Hell i lived it 3 times... it sucked... i think i made a 2 sandwiches and had several red bulls all within the first pull on the dyno LOL | ||
| Moosestang |
I hope that's not a car! | ||
| Vtwinbuell |
maybe its a go kart | ||
| Moosestang |
It looks like they started the dyno run at 5800rpms and it made 81hp just by letting off the gas, lol. Why does the power drop off so much as the rpms increase? Never mind, i re-read your other post about it getting leaner up top. (Message edited by moosestang on February 20, 2010) | ||
| Justa4banger |
After some education i see this system does not work as i thought a normal speed density set does. Under a norma SD efi system, MAP values would be how you measure load. (Message edited by justa4banger on February 20, 2010) | ||
| Justa4banger |
The a/f ratio was SO LEAN it was starving for fuel... it made sense since on the track the car would only pull 4th gear till 4k rpm lol and got great fuel economy and yes it is a car ...this car #26..Ricky Bobby's wonder bread car..   here's the Video... WARNING this will take a LONG TIME!!!!!!!! Dial up its ok. the video is longer than the time it takes to download it LOL http://s93.photobucket.com/albums/l51/justa4banger /LEMONS%2009/?action=view¤t=P1010876.flv (Message edited by justa4banger on February 20, 2010) |
