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Oisterska
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 09, 2010 - 03:50 pm: | 
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[I posted the same issue at buellxb.com. just covering my bases!]
So I have an 09 xb12xt, purchased 7500 miles and 6 months ago.
The problems:
well, started out with a problem starting at anything below 50 degrees farenheit. engine runs for 30 seconds, then dies (with a hiccup sort of sound). next try, runs for a minute then dies (same sound). next time, runs for a few minutes, then dies. depending on temp, it will do this between 3 and 5 times before it will stay running for more than a few minutes. sometimes, it will die at a light/stop sign after a few minutes of riding too.
took it to dealer, they found an oil leak, fixed that. then they said that the oil pump was creating a vacuum that sucked the oil from the swingarm as soon as i turned off the engine. the cold oil in the bottom of the engine is making it hard for the pump to push the oil through the lines and causing resistance inside the engine during a cold startup (i am not a mechanic, so apologies for not knowing exact terminology).
they replaced the pump, but problem persists. their answer: harley/buell tech services tells them that it is a problem with some 2008-2010 bikes, and to basically just deal with starting issues until it gets warmer outside. This seems like an unsatisfactory answer.
they said the same thing for the gas mileage: 30mpg in winter is result of alcohol in gas. as it gets warmer, gas gets better, as will mpgs...
so I am not very happy with their answers, just wondering if this has been a problem for anyone else? if they are correct that these are not problems critical to engine life, etc., then I have one final problem:
because pump sucks oil out of swingarm, i cannot check my oil using the dipstick. dealership says that there is a harley tech bulletin that outlines a 2 PAGE process for checking oil as workaround for this problem. 2 pages! but HD doesnt send this report/give it to the riders with the problems! I am having to call and request this information.
this all seems ridiculous on a $13000, new machine. luckily I purchased 5 year warranty. ive already made 2x my money back on warrantied services and parts. (I recommend the tire and wheel plan!!)
Love the site, and if youre still reading this, thanks for lending me your ear! |
Froggy
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 09, 2010 - 04:17 pm: |
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Welcome to Badweb.
Oil checking issue is well known, the correct way to check the oil is listed in the 2010 manual.
What oil are you using? These bikes are tough to start in the cold, partly due to the high compression. Thick oil dosen't help, and if you aren't running a light weight (10w-40) synthetic, you are more likely to have issues starting. I ride my bikes year round in the harsh cold of the New York winters without issue.
Fuel economy: Several factors are at play here, new motors do not get as good fuel economy as a broken in motor, once you get about 10k on it it will improve. Cold doesn't help either, as your bike will run richer, and the longer idle times in the cold will kill your fuel economy. During the winter most states switch to a different more oxygenated blend of gasoline, that also will hurt the fuel economy. The rest is all rider habits. On a brand new 09 Uly about a year ago, same cold temperatures and winter gas, I was getting about 50mpg on a loaner bike. My broken in bike would get mid 50's in this same situation, and easily 65mpg in the summer. That would give me a cruising range of well over 240 miles.
Also, being that your extended warranty hasn't taken effect yet, you haven't gotten a dime of return on it. |
Oisterska
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 09, 2010 - 04:38 pm: |
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so it was all factory warranty so far? anytway, thanks for the input on oils. I am using the standard harley oil(they switched back from synth when they redid the gaskets and oil pump and all that).
much thanks for the tip on 2010 manual.
so is 30mpg acceptable? i have 7600 or so on mine, and try to keep the rpms below 5000 (3200-4500 average). I dont ride like a dick (no wheelies and infrequent hard accel).
I understand that riding is fun as well as practical, but with 30mpg this bike doesn't even seem practical. my fuel light was coming on around 140 on a fully loaded freeway trip to montana (w/ 700 miles on the machine) this summer.
I knew I was buying a quirky machine. that is what drew me to it. hopefully it will obtain some sort of equilibrium here soon, as I love the bike.
...now ive gotta post my pics from the breather reroute....
and thanks again! |
Akbuell
| | Posted on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 11:00 am: |
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Sorry, don't have the service manual in front of me, so will have to try this off the top of my head.........
Frankly, I think the heavy oil idea is baloney. It will cause the bike to turn over more slowly at start-up, but once it is running, it should stay running. FWIW, my '08TT does the same thing sometimes, 'tho not as much as it seems yours does. And no dieing at lights for mine. I do sometimes add a touch of steady throttle at start-up to get/keep it running for a few moments. Then let it warm up while I do a pretrip check, put on helmet, ect.
Get a service manual, and read up on the Idle Air Control. I believe your problem will be in that system.
As to the mileage, mine was in the 30mpg range at first, but after 5k miles, it was up to the 45-50mpg range, depending on in-town, highway, ect. A thought - look at your exhaust on start-up. See if you get a puff of black smoke when it dies. If so, the ECM/Idle Air Control may not have a happy relationship, causing a Very Rich mixture when cold. May also be affecting your mileage.
Hope all of this helps. And please see about getting the service manual. Worth its weight, allows you to do basic maintanance, and allows you to investigate problems at home, giving you a good idea of how to talk to the service rep when vising the dealer. Let us know how it goes, Dave |
Oisterska
| | Posted on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 09:55 pm: |
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right on gentlemen!
Thanks for your replies. I will see about a copy of the service manual soon.
It is reassuring to know that it happens at least sometimes to other buellers.
I thought that throttle during startup would foul the plugs, though it seems that others give a little steady throttle at start as well.
My exhaust blasts out a lot of water vapor at startup (i assume it is steam). dealership said this is normal, but it makes me wonder every time. I will look for black smoke when it dies.
y'all are the best!
p.s. here is the video link: http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/hIvCL7suzA50- OL8eJACwA?feat=directlink
(and no, no throttle is being added. dies @ 20 sec, 1 min, 1:45, 2:13, 2:45, 3:20. drives me nuts to watch this video.)
p.p.s. any electronic copies of the service manual floating around the badweb?
(Message edited by oisterska on February 11, 2010) |
Froggy
| | Posted on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 10:09 pm: |
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Yep the white steam is just water vapor, 100% normal 
Watching your video, it does sound like an issue with the IAC.
Unfortunately there isn't any electronic service manual for your bike. If you search around on Google, you can find one for a 03 Firebolt, but that bike has next to nothing in common with yours. |
Akbuell
| | Posted on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 12:48 pm: |
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First, steady throttle has not caused any issues for me. I add just enough to keep the bike running until it will do so on its own. 'Blipping' the throttle will cause fouled plugs on these bikes.
When I bought my '08TT, part of the purchase was a service manual and a parts book. Reading through various parts of the service manual, I noticed differences in the index compared to the manual for my '01X-1. That led me back to the dealer, and I discovered that all of the electric stuff (trouble codes, ect) are contained in a third manual for the newer bikes. And sorry, I am in the process of moving, so all my stuff is in storage, or I would give you the part number.
Hope all of this helps, and you are welcome; lots of folks here have helped me. Dave |
Oisterska
| | Posted on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 06:02 pm: |
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thanks again for the replies. I am going to ask the dealer about the IAC tomorrow. still haven't called the customer service line for HD yet. I'd really like the shop to take care of this locally.
We will see what develops. |
Oisterska
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2010 - 09:17 pm: |
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Okay guys:
This is getting quite frustrating.
After my 4th flat rear tire in 10 months, and 6-8 months of this BS starting issue, I had my machine in to get the flat repaired and the starting issue resolved FOR ONCE AND FOR ALL. After talking with tech services (or whoever they call for tech advice) Rocky called me back with this information:
Tech services says that the starting issue is a result of the vacuum in the oil pump and that as far as they are concerned, it is not an issue.
UNACCEPTABLE.
That a fuel injected engine takes more than one or two tries to start is unacceptable. That a fuel injected engine take 5 tries to start is SIMPLY RIDICULOUS. That my motorcycle will die and almost drop me as I round a corner or die when stopped at a stoplight (unless I clutch it and keep on the throttle) is U-N-S-A-F-E.
If they had advertised the motorcycle as having this condition upon purchase, sure, let me deal with it. But I bought it new, brand new. I am so frustrated, I could type for pages. But I won't.
Tomorrow I will be calling HD Customer Care, demanding a new motorcycle, and calling my lawyer if there is any hint of non-compliance on their part. Nothing like a strongly-worded letter from a lawyer to grease the wheels these days, no?
Any advice from people who have requested/gotten their motorcycle switched for a new (I'd almost prefer a 2007 at this point) motorcycle would be helpful. I will keep you posted.
Any advice???? |
Sparky
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 02:58 am: |
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Vacuum in the oil pump causing starting problems -- HA HA HA! That's a new one. Dare them to document that (for your lawyer).
But be careful what you wish for -- the first thing you DON'T want to do is alienate/intimidate/humiliate the important people in the Service Dept., besides they're probably just trying to get you on a Harley anyway... after all, it is a Harley dealership these days. |
Akbuell
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 08:59 am: |
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Before you call, get all of your paperwork together, including all of the repair orders, with dates and times, and who did the work and the names of the service writers and techs you talked to and what they told you. Have it all to hand when you pick up the phone.
Once you make contact with H-D, get the name or ID number of the rep you talk to, and a case or service number.
Most Important (and sometimes a bit difficult to do) is to approach the contact from the position of being a concerned customer whose main interest is in working WITH H-D in solving your issue(s). Be calm, courteous, and polite. Firm is OK if you remain calm and polite. Save lawyers, threats, ect. as a last resort.
Hope this helps, Dave. And yeah, ask for documentation about the oil pump suction issue. I would like to see that. |
Oisterska
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 09:50 am: |
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Roger that on all counts. Yesterday was frustrating, just had to get it out there. It is not the service dept. that is not doing their job. Just the opposite, I think. They truly want to help, but seem restrained by corporate hoop-jumping BS.
But yes, I will be calm, cool, intent on working with HDMC. (Almost threw up a little there....)
And I will surely ask for documentation of the oil problem, posting when I receive it.
Thanks guys...
-k |
Husky
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 12:49 pm: |
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'Unfortunately there isn't any electronic service manual for your bike. If you search around on Google, you can find one for a 03 Firebolt, but that bike has next to nothing in common with yours.'
Oh yes there is, I have one, part number 99493-09Y
Husky |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 01:01 pm: |
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Have you tried a TPS reset? For 2008 and later Buell twins it's very easy as TPS reset is built-in and very simple.
Buell TPS Reset/Rezero Procedure for 2008 & later Buell XBikes and 1125R/CR motorcycles:
The Buell TPS reset for 2008, 2009, or 2010 Buell twins is simple but requires that you precisely perform the following procedure, step-by-step, exactly as described:
0. Begin with the the ignition off, key out, and the run/stop switch in the "stop/off" position.
1. Switch the Run/Stop switch to the "Run" position.
2. Insert ingition key and turn it to the "on" position. Do not start or turn over the engine.
3. Rotate the throttle grip from the closed throttle position to the wide open throttle position hold for one second then rotate back to closed position and hold for one second. Repeat that exact throttle action two more times (three total open/hold-closed/hold cycles) holding the throttle grip gently against each stop for one full second.
4. Cycle the key off and back on.
You've just completed a TPS reset for your 2008 or later Buell motorcycle. Start your bike and ride.
(Message edited by blake on May 12, 2010) |
Froggy
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 03:22 pm: |
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Husky, he was looking for an electronic copy of the service manual, not the Electronics Diagnostic Manual. |
Oisterska
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 03:25 pm: |
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Thanks, but the dealer has done a number of tps resets. Along with afv resets. Seemed to help, but the problem persists.
I will call cust care and see what they can do, though I don't have much hope at this point. Very dissappointed in HD (NOT the mechanics or service dept. I just want that to be clear). |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 03:47 pm: |
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If I were you, I'd try the TPS reset. Dealerships have goofed that up before. Why not try it? It's just too darn simple not to.
You asked for advice. There it is.
Threatening lawsuit should be a very last resort. Doing so will immediately chill any possible good will on their part. |
Oisterska
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 08:32 pm: |
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Duly noted, blake. I agree on all points. Thing is, I don't want the bike back until it runs. It is 1.5 hours on the bus to pick it up, 1.5 hrs back when I drop it off. I have wasted too much time and patience on this bike for it to be worth the bus trip, only to find the same problems. So, perhaps I should have tried the tps reset myself earlier. Too late now.
I am not reallly going to threaten a lawsuit. Never mentioned them, in fact. Anyway, I was mostly just venting my frustration.
For the record: thanks guys, I know not to bite the hand that feeds me. But when it is feeding me BS, I reserve the right to not eat it.
Thanks again for your replies and advice (and patience with a frustrated HD customer).
(Message edited by oisterska on May 12, 2010) |
Oisterska
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 03:45 pm: |
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So an update:
The dealership told me last week that they disassembled the motor, found scratches in the cylinders. Waited on parts (cylinders, pistons), they put it back together fri-sat. Presumably they are test riding the hell out of it right now.
Does the starting issue possibly relate to the scratches in the cylinder? What could cause these scratches?
[edit]
DONE AND DONE! The cylinders, pistons were replaced, starts 1st try, idles at 1100 rpm, steady as a rock. Super stoked, and very thankful to all the service techs at Paradise Harley Davidson. Here is what the service repair order says:
"Zeroed TPS, AFV reset, pulled airbox assembly. Test ride good. Bike came back with same problem. Compression tested good went to test leakdown and found both cylinder walls scored. Suspect lack of compression was causing bike to run rich and leading to runability problem. Replaced cylinders and pistons, reset AFV. Test ride good."
Techs said that it probably began in the factory, nothing I could really have done to cause this (Whew!). Just gonna break her in and will report if any future problems.
I hope nobody else ever has to deal with this. More than a month of waiting and almost 10000 miles on the bike until it truly ran properly. Now I can finally begin to really put on the miles, test the repairs, and RIDE RIDE RIDE. (...and start dreaming up my performance mods list. Not that I don't already have a list in mind...)
-Kellen
(Message edited by oisterska on June 03, 2010) |
Froggy
| | Posted on Saturday, June 05, 2010 - 12:44 am: |
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Great to hear. Hopefully it continues to be trouble free |
Oisterska
| | Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 01:00 pm: |
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Well, here they are. Videos of my STILL malfunctioning 2009 Buell Ulysses xb12xt.
A link to the videos of my startups:
(Message edited by oisterska on June 19, 2010)http://picasaweb.google.com/kellen.hull/MotorcycleStuff?feat=directlink
[edit]
Well, met with the shop foreman, mechanics, etc. today. They asked my story, start to finish, and what route I would like to pursue from here on out. They expressed the desire to continue working to make me happy, whatever the avenue. They, of course, can not even say the word 'lemon' but it was danced around with an artistry that I have not before seen.
The process has begun, sounds like they will be replacing my bike with another. Eventually. Hopefully.
(Message edited by oisterska on June 19, 2010) |
Froggy
| | Posted on Sunday, June 27, 2010 - 01:10 pm: |
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Did they ever check or replace the IAC like I mentioned earlier? |
Oisterska
| | Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2010 - 10:12 pm: |
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So the bike replacement (pipe)dream never got fulfilled, but I will be picking up my bike tomorrow after 4 weeks in the shop while my 5 pelvic fractures healed, so no real complaints on the timeframe. If Rossi can race, I can at least get the bike home...
They went over all of the grounds, tried to blame a poorly wired ground where the ECM is grounded (I may have began a topcase brakelight mod, blown a fuse and bailed after getting the damn brake lights working again...). When that did not resolve the issue, they ran the bike w/o the O2 sensors, did some diagnosing and it turned out that changing the fuel pump seems to have fixed it.
They seem pretty sure of themselves, but then again they have been the same with every other attempt at repair (fuel pump replacement, scratched cylinders, bad ground). I really hope this works. I will begin to PM others who have reported this problem as soon as I can verify the fix.
Thanks for your suggestions everyone, and no Froggy, they never did replace the IAC. When I suggested it (I accidentally mentioned 'internet forums') they got real snarky about how they are full of bad information. They, of course, are surely not referring to BadWeb specifically.
Fingers crossed!
(Message edited by oisterska on August 26, 2010) |
Mesozoic
| | Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2010 - 02:40 am: |
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After reading this thread I decided I have to chime in. I have an '08 XB12Ss and it definitely exhibited the same issues described here. Reflashing the bike several times to the newer BUE2D firmware helped, but the best way to deal with the startup issue is to tune the bike. I bought the DirectLink, but found that to be a complete waste of money since it doesn't expose all of the tuning parameters in the ECM. Instead, I used a combination of EcmSpy, ECMRead for Mono, and TunerPro to tune the bike.
Besides doing a lot of datalogging to get some really well tuned fuel maps, I modified the following tables and maps to get the bike starting up and running reliably without dying:
- Warmup enrichment table
- Air temp correction table
- IAC startup correction table
- Front cylinder correction table
- Idle correction table
- Accel enrichment temp adjustment table
- Startup enrichment duration map
My bike starts up and runs reliably regardless of whether I'm in 40*F weather in Vancouver, Canada or the 105*F weather here in Tucson, AZ. My theory is that due to EPA being super strict the Buell engineers had to severely compromise the ECM tuning. I've gotten the bike to run really well by analyzing the changes Buell made from one firmware to the next and incorporating a thing or two from the race ECMs.
I wish you the best of luck resolving your driveability issues. |
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