| Author | Message | ||
     Mikezx9r |
Probably the reason you see 15 people happy with the ECM and 1 person not is just a matter of probability. On this forum, anything with the Buell name on it has to be great and is above any criticism. If Eric Buell made and sold ice cubes, people here would insist they were the best tasting ice cubes ever. People here think Buell is infallable. In other words, a lot of people here feel if Buell made it, it has to be good. With the quality issues I see just from my own bike, it doesnt surprise me if the ECM made isnt top notch and needs adjustments made. (Message edited by mikezx9r on February 12, 2010) | ||
| Mountainstorm |
Anyone have the part number on those Ice Cubes? I need to check them out. (Message edited by Mountainstorm on February 12, 2010) | ||
| No_rice |
Probably the reason you see 15 people happy with the ECM and 1 person not is just a matter of probability. On this forum, anything with the Buell name on it has to be great and is above any criticism. If Eric Buell made and sold ice cubes, people here would insist they were the best tasting ice cubes ever. People here think Buell is infallable. oh i wouldnt say that, i believe that the people who spent the last 26 years designing and building these bikes probably just have a better idea of what works and what doesnt on these bikes then anyone else who just appeared in the last while and is now the epitomy of everything buell(no one in particular, just saying it seems to happen) | ||
| Jules |
I don't understand why this is such an emotive subject. I'd rather have seen the tests done with the O2 sensors in place, that might have lead to different results (there's no way to tell without repeating them with them in). I can see lots of people have opinions and there are definately a couple of camps. One thing this thread has done for me is to help me to make an informed decision over who I'd buy bits from when the time comes - which I know was not the intention of the thread or the posters who helped make that decision. I just can't be ar$ed to deal with people who are up their own ar$es so will make sure I never end up as a customer of theirs.. That might bea bit vague, but I know what I mean... | ||
| Xelerator |
There have been quality issues with the Ice Cubes and they are on backorder.  "Anyone have the part number on those Ice Cubes? I need to check them out." | ||
| Chevycummins |
I'll post my results as soon as I get them. The bike will be set up with the EBR exhaust and race ecm for pump gas. Also planning on welding in an extra bung to run the wide band meter with the O2 connected. | ||
| Therealassmikeg |
All I meant by this is that we have no idea whether the ecu somehow learned a false a/f value by having one oxs (removed and connected) reading a fixed value and another reading the rear bank value. the bike had to start (not wot) and ran (not wot) We just don't know.... Stranger things have happened. I would do this first before comdemning the tune... | ||
| Reducati |
i think we will need extra security at homecomming  | ||
| Xelerator |
The fixed A/F values only kick in when the sensors are disconnected. "The map does use the O2 sensors but can also run without. If no O2 sensor is connected it reverts to a fixed map." | ||
| Moosestang |
All I meant by this is that we have no idea whether the ecu somehow learned a false a/f value by having one oxs (removed and connected) reading a fixed value and another reading the rear bank value. the bike had to start (not wot) and ran (not wot) We just don't know.... Stranger things have happened. I would do this first before comdemning the tune... If anything, it would have added fuel, but I don't think the 02 had any effect on the dyno runs. | ||
| Nivek |
As much as this next comment isn't completely true, buell is such a unique motorcycle, engine especially! If you where to compare the thunderstorms with these helicoils, then you could see the similarities in power band. For me that tells me they are brothers. I am very happy with how this bike feels and ride (mine needs some throttle smoothing IMO, thus i'm interested in the race ECM). looking up dyno results from a helicoil compared to a ducati 1198 and others, i am always interested in how smooth and high the torque curve is (i dont really care about hp, thats taken care of by torque). My lazy findings (lazy do too it was a quick google image search) is that the buell is smoother and flatter, therefore telling me that it will feel like my diesel does, which i like to describe as a hydraulic cylinder ramming you forward! one thing that i find interesting about this form (maybe i am missed something) is that since buells started selling cheaper there has been a lot of newer siblings on this form, seems that other backgrounds has joined, old to young. I do say welcome, the enthusiasm can only lead to things moving along and staying exciting  -Nivek | ||
| Trac95ker |
Heres something I found in an XB manual on line. Also found this. http://buelltuning.free.fr/injang.htm#top I realize this is about DDFI2 but the open/closed loop operation overview info should be the same imo. It appears that AFV learned in closed loop are applied to open loop. IMO, when you removed the O2 sensor and ran your bike on the dyno for ten minutes, it adjusted the ecm incorrectly. It took that new info and applied the AFV to open loop. Can you reinstall the O2 sensor, relearn in closed loop and then post the results? Could yo also weld on another bung for a wide band O2 sensor and test again to cover all bases? I don't have a dog in this fight, my 1125r and Xb12s run very well. . GENERAL The Buell DDFI operates both as an open and closed loop system which allows it to adjust for all possible operating con- ditions. During open loop operation, the system utilizes pro- grammed fuel and spark maps in the ECM which provide ease of cold starting and maximum power at wide open throt- tle (WOT). The adaptive fuel value which is “learned” during closed loop operation is applied during open loop operation to adjust fuel and spark maps for optimum performance. During closed loop operation, the system relies on input from the O2 sensor to provide for the most efficient, stoichiometric air fuel mixture (14.7:1) which results in reduced emissions, good fuel economy and power. In order for the system to enter closed loop operation, the following conditions must be met: ● O2 Sensor at operating temperature (Engine at normal operating temperature). ● Operation below 5000 RPM with engine under normal, steady load conditions. By using both open and closed loop systems, engine perfor- mance is continuously tuned to compensate for changing conditions and provide maximum performance. | ||
| Mikezx9r |
Anyone have the part number on those Ice Cubes? I need to check them out. I know where you can get cheap knockoffs. They dont have the pegasus emblem on them though. oh i wouldnt say that, i believe that the people who spent the last 26 years designing and building these bikes probably just have a better idea of what works and what doesnt on these bikes then anyone else who just appeared in the last while and is now the epitomy of everything buell(no one in particular, just saying it seems to happen) The 1125r has a different engine than other Buells and has only been around for 3 years, give or take. I dont see how the years of previous experience can be applicable to something different than what the experience is with. My 1125r is being dyno tuned right now with a jardine slip on, k&n and PCV. I will post the results when I know what they are. Im only getting it tuned to make it run smoother, especially at lower RPMs. I dont really care what the numbers are. Im tired of my bike running like crap. If I cared about the bike being faster, I would have bought something faster (Japanese) and than runs better. I didnt realize Buell would release a bike that runs this bad at low RPMs or I wouldnt even have bought it. I would be furious right now if I had paid anywhere near MSRP for the bike. (Message edited by mikezx9r on February 12, 2010) | ||
| Mountainstorm |
Can you please post runs with and without ice cubes in the intake? I have some little Pegasus stickers to put on them if you insist on using cheap knock offs. | ||
| Poppinsexz |
I've been watching this thread with interest for future applications. The numbers are deff. not what we expected, however there are other factors that seem to be missing, there is alot of focus on the o2 sensors but. What was fuel pressure What was static timing These and many other things that could affect the performance have not been checked. advanced timing will cause a lean reading. As a race ECM I would expect the timing to be advanced. But what was static. Some thing could be out of wack Low rail pressure could cause lean if the injector P width is fixed for certain conditions ie WOT. Is the TPS responding correctly. Just some thoughts. Of course you just got what you paid for (Message edited by poppinsexz on February 12, 2010) | ||
| No_rice |
The 1125r has a different engine than other Buells and has only been around for 3 years, give or take. I dont see how the years of previous experience can be applicable to something different than what the experience is with. so you cant understand why someone would think that the people that designed the thing in the first place(all be it less then 26 years ago) might know more about it then joe blow? hmm | ||
| Justa4banger |
Just got off the phone with Buell. i need to run the bike back at stock in order to verify something else didn't change.... Apparently they have sold alot of these ECM's and i'm "that guy". i guess its my lucky day.  So i guess now its back to the dyno to see whats going on... A Couple clarifications. On somethings i was WRONG and some things i was not.YES the O2 sensor can adjust the Entire open loop map. the changes are minimal but they do occur. Having the O2 sensor in the configuration i had it can throw a fault and basically send the bike into Limp mode (a safe mode to get the bike home). Now if the 02 sensors were just disconnected this would throw no code and just run open loop. since i had my sensor connected and in circut, i COULD have caused a fault and sent the ecm into limp mode. Of course since i did not get the check engine light (no historical code either).. its hard to say if this happened or not. Considering i ran ALL the tests in this configuration though, the baseline runs would have been affected also. Buell claims there is fuel added every where on the map. He also says that because my bike is an 08 the a/f readings that i have received may not be entirely accurate, thats the reason for the running change in O2 sensor location on the 09's + Yes there were flaws my test method, but atleast ALL the runs were flawed... and yes my thoughts on how this the O2 sensors apply changes is WRONG. i admit it. But i would have to just cruise on the dyno, for those 10 min warmup sesions the dyno operator did not cuise. he constntly varied the throttle from up to down and vise versa... his point was to ensure the O2 sensor was not sampled. This still does not explain the lower hp numbers. Buell could not make any sense of it either. (they have not looked at the dyno charts , photobucket is blocked at their work) Buell Believes that there could be a lean fire miss (@ 8K rpm) and thats causing the spike in the a/f ratio. so right now my course of action is to go back to stock and run the bike to re verify my baseline, and also run the bike on the dyno with the front o2 sensor in... just to see if the numbers go up. SO back to the dyno again just to see what the hp numbers are. screw the a/f ratio i just want to see if theres ANY KIND OF change... (Message edited by justa4banger on February 12, 2010) | ||
| Mountainstorm |
Hope that makes a difference. | ||
| Mikezx9r |
so you cant understand why someone would think that the people that designed the thing in the first place(all be it less then 26 years ago) might know more about it then joe blow? hmm Honest question. Did Buell design the engine or did Rotax? I honestly dont know the answer. I know if Rotax did, Buell may be privy to information about it that outsiders arent, but there is also the chance that something will be misintepreted in translation. We all know that happens. | ||
| Justa4banger |
Well the dyno shop is booked solid and i won;t be able to get in next week, so now we wait...or maybe i just wait. | ||
| No_rice |
Honest question. Did Buell design the engine or did Rotax? I honestly dont know the answer. I know if Rotax did, Buell may be privy to information about it that outsiders arent, but there is also the chance that something will be misintepreted in translation. We all know that happens. i know buell did ALOT of the design to most parts of that motor set up. but yes i also get what your saying. | ||
| Moosestang |
Limp mode, didn't think it had that. It may go into a skip spark and that would explain the lean runs. I would have expected much less hp though. | ||
| Justa4banger |
well that was my idea. limp mode in most anything efi makes the engine run, but like crap and have very poor performance. Since i didn't loose massive amounts of power, its hard to explain whats going on. and since i ran the HMF pipe, K&N and ECM before doing the test, that doesn;t explain why i picked up power running the stock airfilter which the next test i did. the stock airfilter picked up power 121 vs 123. Funny Buell doesn't like the PC V. lol. i mentioned trying it out instead.. of course he recommended against it | ||
| Justa4banger |
i guess we need MOUNTAINSTORM to run his bike.. since he has the same exact setup.... The pressures on bud | ||
| Justa4banger |
oh to clarify Buell did not say the bike has a "limp mode" but he did say that if a faulty o2 sensor is acknowledge , then the ECM would take precautions to save itself... of course by the time this happened you would defintely have a check engine light | ||
| Mikezx9r |
Funny Buell doesn't like the PC V. lol. i mentioned trying it out instead.. of course he recommended against it I will definately post my results. If I cant figure ut how to get the actual chart on here, I will still try to relay how it goes. | ||
| Froggy |
I am still trying to catch up on these 5000 posts related to these runs, but J4B was nice enough to send me the dyno files, I will repost them in color so you can better see whats what | ||
| Moosestang |
Mike, you can't blame snow for no dyno results! if you can take a picture of the dyno sheet, then you can upload it to a free photo sharing site or send it to me and i'll post it for you. Stang 06 at windstream dot net. Send me your map as well, i might just get the PCV instead of the race ecm. Oh, be glad you didn't spend $15k on a ducati streetfighter. They are apparently much worse than the buells at low rpms. | ||
| Justa4banger |
Yea how that PC V works is an ingenius design.. i don;t see why it couldn't work, but O2's have to be disconnected then.. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
4banger--so you had the front 02 sensor out of the bike, but still hooked up? |
