| Author | Message | ||
     Justa4banger |
OK first here are the sheets so you guys can start looking them over. I will be writing a follow up in just a second.      | ||
| Justa4banger |
     (Message edited by justa4banger on February 11, 2010) (Message edited by justa4banger on February 11, 2010, i forgot a dyno sheet) (Message edited by justa4banger on February 11, 2010) | ||
| Americanmadexb |
Interesting! | ||
| Fresnobuell |
I am really confused, so the race ECM, K&N and HMF produced only 121 HP? | ||
| Mountainstorm |
Weird as hell/ In every instance the stock ECM is showing a smoother and stronger curve | ||
| Justa4banger |
OK. What you are looking at Gentlemen. Use the chart to reference the run files to what configuration I tested. That should be easy… I know things are not colored , sorry, maybe Blake can fix that… Here’s what I did. Tested my 2008 R with the latest flash on petro 91 octane gas, freshly filled each morning just before the dyno session. We removed the front O2 sensor and installed the dyno’s wideband O2 sensor so there would be no false readings. I did a TPS reset before running the different computers. Dyno was warmed up for 10 min using my bike before each day. The weather was almost identical between the 2 days. I did usually 2-3 runs per test. I took the best performance of the runs and printed them against the STOCK BASELINE. ALL dyno charts posted are the mod against the baseline. The stock O2 that was pulled was set off to the side and the dyno operator did not stay in a range in which the ECM would try to reference O2’s (basically O2’s didn’t do nothing.) never through a code. I ran the stock exhaust with K&N, RACE ECM, Open air box etc..on the first day. I came home swapped the pipe, installed the K&N and Race ECM. Reset the TPS, CLEARED the historical Codes (buddy at HD dealer hooked me up), and drove 75 miles yesterday plus another 40 miles today to the dyno. The first run that I did today was the HMF PIPE, K&N and RACE ECM, so that naysayers couldn’t argue that I didn’t give the ECM time to “learn”. Then I ran the stock air filter with the Race ECM, then swapped ECM’s, reset tps, and re tested stock air filter and K&N. I grouped my runs together to save time on swapping ecm’s and to allow each ecm to “learn” since you guys seems to think those silly O2’s sensor are so important. Each test was completed in 4th gear (I mistakenly said 5th the other day) and all tests started at 3k rpm. All runs were initiated by snapping the throttle open (except for the race ecm since it would spike 18/1 a/f ratio). The Race ecm’s needed to be rolled on to keep A/F happy. One of the charts is all of the stock exhaust runs grouped together. I didn’t bother doing that for the HMF pipe since I was pissed off with what I was seeing. Carefully look at the charts and the reference chart to compare the runs to the mod tested… Run 20 (the last one) was the closest to Stock using the K&N, pipe and Stock ecm… I will agree that the race ECM feels good. I noticed right away, but I also noticed that just north of 8k seemed dull, and then picked up. also from the initial snap of the throttle at low rpm the bike would hesitate and then go like hell. The dyno clearly showed the lean area and then how it got rich. Its feels awesome in the midrange due to the a/f map (only a part of the equation, timing I’m sure is different in this area of the map IMO) giving enough fuel in this area, but as the rpms climb so do the a/f ratio then the ecm compensates and comes back down to an ok a/f ratio IMO.. I have written EBR and expressed my disappointment. I included my dyno runs to them and Mike said they will get back to me shortly. I like the throttle response once its going, it feels good, but not as strong as the stock setup. I could tell I had a soft area in the midrange. I expected that given the new pipe and lack of backpressure. The reduced engine breaking is also nice, but I suspect that more from the pipe than anything else. (less back pressure less engine braking) Yes the stock Ecm with slip on and K&N will do a lean decal pop. We tried this several time and could see it on the a/f meter. I think I have covered my bases… basically I got a lot of noise, a cool looking pipe, smoother throttle input but at the cost of running the bike lean in WOT conditions. I would not consider this a RACE ECM by any means… yes the fuel economy has gone down a little but nothing drastic UNLESS you use the throttle a lot. The engine does run COOLER, that’s a big plus and its easy to see why.. at idle and cruise the a/f ratio is more at 14.7:1( stioch) than 16:1 This map needs work, end of story the a/f ratio is all over, a few spots are ok, but overall its just not a good map IMO. Now start the questions.. I’ll do my best to answer them if I know the answer. Keep in mind all of this is my observation with the help of my dyno technician… | ||
| Justa4banger |
YES FRESNO, with all mods i made 5 less peak hp...and its easy to see why. the a/f ratio is much leaner than the baseline run, hell the mods with stock ecm did better than the Race ecm... | ||
| Justa4banger |
Infact stock air filter, stock ecm and pipe produced 3/10th of a hp more power .. thats run 17. Now thats interesting to know. | ||
| Xnoahx |
This ECM was programmed for pump gas, K&N, and slip on? | ||
| Moosestang |
Can't wait to here EBR response. Maybe you got a fuel map for a xb.  | ||
| Justa4banger |
AZXB9R... your coment from the other thread O2 sensors allow the ECM to adjust for current conditions. Without them the rider would have to re-tune the bike every time the weather or elevation changed. Not a problem on a race bike, but a major PITA on a street driven bike. this is incorrect.the BARO sensor compensates for weather conditions. The O2 sensors are only for CRUISE AND IDLE ONLY people. these O2 sensor are crap. i have stated my opinion of them many times. if you still want to believe that the ONE WIRE O2 sensors are that capable of making adjustments to an entire map, please go ask your local tuner or call ebr, or someone. thats not how these sensors work. WIDEBAND O2, YES they work in the method described, but our bikes do not have wideband sensors. | ||
| Justa4banger |
BLAKE the more i read your silly comment on the other thread the more it pisses me off. I'm allowed to rant like anyone else regardless of what was donated to me or not. I see people rant on here all the time, i never see any issue about it, i do it, and i get a sly remark...i do not appreciate it at all. I produced what i promised....heres the info... here's the PROOF! | ||
| Justa4banger |
YES THE ECM WAS PROGRAMMED FOR SLIP ON, PUMP GAS AND K&N. (Message edited by justa4banger on February 11, 2010) | ||
| Justa4banger |
Fresno i did not have a phone number on my invoice, i wish i did. Hellgate...  in the works my friend. this monday..its nice to have them local to me. (Message edited by justa4banger on February 11, 2010) | ||
| Justa4banger |
Once again, for those that donated your hard earned money to me, thank you. i hope i gave you useful information. | ||
| D_adams |
Ok, I feel slightly vindicated based on these tests. The K&N does show a power loss at 9k rpm and the a/f ratio displayed is much leaner. This is what mine has exibited from day one, and it's the reason why (K&N filter) I get erratic dyno plots every time. I'll definitely be going back to the stock filter now. I'm glad I didn't lose any power with the pipe I built, now it's time to find a little more, prior to tuning. Excellent work charting this properly, especially with the overlay from the baseline on them all. Absolutely fascinating! | ||
| Hellgate |
I'm here for you brother. I'll PM you my email. Email me, I'll shoot you the map, it'll give you some insight to the mapping transition. | ||
| Moosestang |
I don't know how much the 02 sensors play in changing the AFV's, but I'm pretty sure the AFV's are applied to WOT. On the XB's, AFV wasn't applied until open loop, which could be seen in a datalog using ecmspy. EGO correction is the instant adjustment in closed loop, which was directly affected by the 02 signal. At any rate, something doesn't seem right. On a completely stock bike with only race ecm, i'd expect to see a richer A/F ratio | ||
| Mountainstorm |
Well the dyno sez it aint right. I hope EBR has some good info for you. And I bet they would have no problem doing whatever they can to make it right. Thanks a lot for all that dyno blasting. | ||
| Justa4banger |
OK Say the O2 sensor sees 15:1 and the computer is demanding 14.7. So what your saying is the computer adds enough fuel to get to that .3 difference to be equal and then adds that same amount of X value to the map? that makes no sense... cruising at 90 mph is different from cruising at 45 mph due to loads, drag etc. the value would be different, and the sensor is not accurate enough. Look i have no idea honestly WTF buell has going on here. if this is how it works, SO be it, (its probably why its screwed up) Car efi's do not do this. the O2 control cruise and idle a/f ratio values and nothing more. the MAF sensor on a car compensates fuel by meauring the exact amount of air thats being ingested and adds/subtracts fuel according. Speed density is a calculated guess. NOW look at the PC V setup. they have autotune.. what does the autotune incorporate.. a wideband sensor. it measures the a/f ratio at WOT, mid throttle, up hills, down hills, etc etc etc.. thats is how it can compensate for changes and make a fine tune for the engine. these particular O2's are no where near sensitive enough to do what some of ya'll believe is possible. And Yes moosetang i agree i expected the race ECm to be RICH..... :cheers: | ||
| Justa4banger |
GUYS truth be told i wanted this to work, i wanted this to be that GOOD ENOUGH ecm that could work good enough for most mods... i don't know what i have , but it isn't what i was expecting.. Right now, in this instance, i would gladly pay the few extra dollars for a PC V. (and will.) | ||
| Rocketsprink |
At least it isn't riding weather here right now. Hopefully it all gets sorted and makes my choice easier when the time comes to buys something | ||
| Dannybuell |
justa4banger THX dannybuell | ||
| Moosestang |
Cruising at 90 and cruising at 35 is still cruising and it's using the O2 sensors and constantly adjusting the mixture. AFV changes slowly and, at least on the xb's, is applied to open loop. It may also change the closed loop correction indirectly, but it was directly applied to open loop based on ecmspy datalogs viewed in megalogviewer and my butt dyno. This is all based on the xb ecm. Waiting for Gunter's snide remarks.......... | ||
| Court |
>>>BLAKE the more i read your silly comment on the other thread the more it pisses me off. It really shouldn't. I never let comments on the internet . . .the place where midgets claim to be NBA stars . . upset me. Life's too short. Blake's comments, PRECISELY like yours . . . we no more than opinion. Rise above the urge to argue and support what you are saying with empirical facts. Here . . with all due respect . . are a few of my questions and I'm going to say right up front that I DO NOT KNOW IF YOUR RESULTS ARE ACCURATE AND I AM NOT QUESTIONING THEM. I see you showed up here on Badweb about 3 months ago? How long have you been tuning Buells? What are your qualifications? (Again, I simply don't know and you are asking 15,000 folks to take what you say as gospel) . . this is kinda important and you may, from time to time, when someone asks about my impression of a motorcycle, see me quote that I've been riding Buells for about 23 years and have ridden in 44 states on Buells. It just gives them a sense that I'm not 3 months into this and trying to make a comparison I'm ill equipped to make. Did you pay for the parts? (I always ask this because when I was testing professionally I either bought the parts myself or, when the test was complete, returned them) Tests with free parts are not tests, they are advertisements. You kinda (although my jury is still kinda out on this) soured the thing when you not only asked for money but started chastising folks for not sending it quicker. Again . . this is not a bad thing . . but (and this is the reason I NEVER charge anyone for any of the Buell stuff I send) money complicates all things. How would you respond if 15 other folks all had very similar finding that were just the opposite of yours? Again . . . . the above are just my thoughts. No intention whatsoever to call you or your work into question. I am aware of a number (it's about 15) of folks who have used the same combination you have and have reported different results. You may answer if you wish. It may comfort some that your motives are pure. Buell, I am quite certain, will not be responding publicly . . . . no manufacturer would. There are simply too many variables. What you may not too . . . because it would serve neither your effort or the thread . . is argue with me. I'm out of this thread but my PERSONAL OPINION (again based on 23 years of being around Buells and performance motorcycles) is that you have created many more questions than you have answered. As we say in construction . . . . . something JUST DOESN'T LOOK RIGHT. Again . . . I am out of this discussion. Just my thoughts. Court | ||
| Hellgate |
I disagree Court. J4B had been very transparent with his tests and results. I also know that he knows engines and didn't just fall off of the turnip truck. Three months on BW has nothing to do with his knowledge of motors and tuning. All that means it he's been a member for three months. As far a an experience opposite of 15 others, that hasn't happened here. J4B is the first person, to my knowledge, to dyno the this particular ECM configuration and provide the data he has. As far as 23 year of tuning Buells, that doesn't not apply here as this motor is closer to an Aprilia than any Buell. Like many "bolt-on" parts that the aftermarket sells the hype may not live up to actual experience. I'm curious to see how EBR replies/supports their customer base; eg: J4B. Cheers, Pete (Message edited by hellgate on February 11, 2010) | ||
| Xelerator |
4Banger, are you able to overlay run 13 and 15? There seems to be very little effect of the K&N filter when combined with the EBR-ECM and HMF exhaust. Thanks, good job! Chris (Message edited by Xelerator on February 11, 2010) | ||
| Court |
Thank you . . . welcome to Badweb. I see you too are new to Buells. You are most welcome to disagree . . which is why I made it so clear in my post that I was not . . . let me cut and paste here . . I AM NOT QUESTIONING THEM. >>>I also know that he knows engines and didn't just fall off of the turnip truck Good. Hopefully when others know that things will come into focus. >>>J4B is the first person, to my knowledge, to dyno the this particular ECM configuration and provide the data he has. Again . . you are precisely correct. I can say with absolute certainty that he is the first to post results on Badweb. Why the other 50 of so folks who have bought the same ECM have neither posted results nor complained, I do not know. I do know, as I stated that there have been a number of glowing reports. >>>>As far as 23 year of tuning Buells, Opps. You misread. I have never tuned anything. I wouldn't know how to change the jet in a carb. But I have had the pleasure of hiring and working with some of the best tuners in the business. >>>>Like many "bolt-on" parts that the aftermarket sells the hype may not live up to actual experience. Boy do you hit that one on the head. And . . . I'm sure that you and I are also, once again, in perfect agreement that one day of dyno runs with results that are not only non-intuitive but confusing . . . is zero basis to make any claim regarding fitness for purpose or if the hype lives up to the actual experience. >>>I'm curious to see how EBR replies/supports their customer base; eg: J4B. Probably a question to ask him. His prior statements indicate he's had no contact with anyone at Buell. Perhaps he can clarify that. Are you under the impression that he has not spoken to or been in touch with the folks at Buell? (HINT: I know the answer to that so it's kinda a trick question) Seems . . that I with all these years and you being here about 10 days are in nearly perfect agreement. Court P.S. - I should also make it clear that I am wide open (working at Buell for those years opened my eyes) to the fact that this MAU be a one of a kind anomaly. I've seen it happen too many times. Erik and I were in a store once and he bought a Gretsch electric guitar . . .by all rights it should have been a great guitar. He got it home and started going over it and, perhaps someone had a bad day, it had lots of things wrong. I also recall the day the guy called and told me that BUELL was spelled wrong on his brand new S1 Lightning. I told him that was impossible (knowing that ALL the decals came from the very same machine) . . . . now I'm older (really old) and much wiser and . . part of my background in customer service has taught me to keep a wide open mind. | ||
| Justa4banger |
Yeap 3 months ago i bought my first Buell. does this really make a difference? have i tuned buells, nope. have i tuned bikes, nope. have i tuned various car setups from turbo,n/a to nitrous apps, YES. with great success i might add. I've also help build on a MAF conversion my tuner and i did to convert my mustang from 1980's EFi to a current MAF setup. Am I an engineer, nope. i'm a joe blow, but i have learned over my years of doing testing for myself and other manufacturers on how to keep the amount of variables to a constant for testing purposes. thats what we wanted here........ right? No where in this thread did i ever state that i was going to tune the bike to max power or achieve the best ridability Did i tune any of the items that i bought for my buell, NO. Did i test the products as they arrived to my door, Yes. there is no tuning ability in the race ECM i purchased, it is already tuned (so i thought). So theres no adjustment that i could make. DO i know a little about EFI tuning, YES, Do i know Moderate info on EFI tuning, YES, Am i an expert, surely not. Have i worked with Speed density setups YES. Have i worked on Mass air flow meter setups, YES. Have i worked with alpha N, No i have not. yes i bought all my parts, i'm not sponsered or working with any company, this is all on my own dime. As for asking for donations, take that as you please, but given the time and the amount of dyno sessions i needed to complete what was asked from me, i felt it to be appropriate. This is not something have done before. In the past i have done my own dyno testing and just given the information away. on the flip side i only did dyno testing/tuning that affected my vehicles. I feel that the few people that gladly donated there hard earned money felt this is money well spent. it saved them alot more money by not buying items or mix and matching items that do not work together well. this was my intent. i surely have not made any money off this and never intended to. Had i planned on scamming money i would have never informed anyone on how much was recieved in donations. my whole point in conducting this test was to help the board members remove variables and help us as a whole come together to maximize our Buell experience. i was also curious, but honestly only cared about how my bike configuration would run. the rest of all this is for the enthusists in all of us. Court i do understand your questions, some of them don't make a difference. IF a person wishes to believe a certain way and not use the information i have given to their advantage, that is fine. When it is all said and done... what did i do here that could not be replicated by you or any other person? i clearly explained what i was going to do, i did the job, minimized the most variables i could to keep the testing as accurate as i could and the results were not what we were expecting by any amount of the imagination. Was i pissed early today, absolutely, in all my years of testing various engine components to increase performance, i have never seen an item labeled race and actually take away performance and IMO make it dangerous to use. the lean spot at 8k really worries me because at the track you would be all over that tach mark consistantly... that could easily lead to engine damage. i do agree Buell will not saying anything on an open forum. My email to EBR was't rude (IMO) but it definitely showed my dissappointment in their product. I hope their response will make things right not just for me but everyone interested in their products. | ||
| Blackflash |
1+ to what hellgate said about j4b. Thanks for the good info j4b. I just don't see how these bikes can run the race ecm on 08s or 09s.They have different injectors.I think there is a simple fix that will get you on track.I believe you received the wrong ecm regardless of what the invoice stated. If you had the ohio guys tune you could adjust afr around and got somewhere .Oh but wait you have to pay another 550.00 for that from ebr.Anyone putting liens on there children yet. |
