| Author | Message | ||
     Vagelis46 |
I like to shake things up from time to time. When I get really evil, do not hesitate to burn me.  After all the first race is getting close. | ||
| Trojan |
What is nice to see also is Nicky in the top ten, and improving steadily, I fear that if he does not really have a good showing this year it will is last in the GP, but I would think WSBK would welcome him with OPEN arms, if only he can hold out to 2012 and get back on the 990 that suits him better. I very much doubt that the return to 1000cc will herald a return to the fire breathing sideways monsters of the 990 era. With the advances in electronics and no specific plans to curb their use I would expect the 'new' 1000cc bikes to behave like larger 800's than the old school 990, and will still favour a high corner speed 250 style. The rules have also been relaxed because certain factories (Honda) don't like the idea of changing to 1000cc in 2012. The proposals now say that teams can run either 800cc bikes or 1000cc with differing fuel capacities and weight limits (a disaster interms of public recognition and support, not to mention saftey aspects). What I think we will see is the current major factory teams continuing to run 800 bikes for a while and the smaller cash strapped teams (and maybe new bots BMW & Aprilia)running 1000cc production based engines. The rules certainly need to be thrashed out a bit more before the 2012 season starts that's for sure. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
What people do not get, and is getting annoying, is that top&talented riders are fast on 800cc-990cc-600cc-500cc-1000cc-125cc-250cc. Just look at Spies and his racing backround. Some said (Trojan it was you) that 250cc riders will "kill" him. So what happened to Simoncelli, Ayoyama, Barbera, Bautista and the rest ????? Wait till the races and the 250cc riders will get "smoked" The top riders would be the same, even if they were racing supermarket trolleys. Hayden would do no better if they banned traction control and the bikes were 1500cc going sideways. The top 6 riders would still be 1s faster than him. If Hayden moves to WSBK, he is not guaranteed a title. He will do better because the talent in WSBK is lower than motoGP and he might have a chance for podiums and maybe wins. One more thing I like about Spies is that he puts to rest "theories" by racing "experts", especially the theory that...."unless you grow up racing 125cc - 250cc 2strokes, you will fail in motoGP" Thank you #11. You have done racing fans so many favours already................ | ||
| Trojan |
One more thing I like about Spies is that he puts to rest "theories" by racing "experts", especially the theory that...."unless you grow up racing 125cc - 250cc 2strokes, you will fail in motoGP" That is a big assumption when he hasn't started a race yet in 2010. Let's see how he does during the season before we make assumptions shall we  He may be great or he may be yet another on the list of talented Superbike rider who shows flashes of brilliance but ultimately fails to win in MotoGP. I think he will do well, but I don't think he is any better than those around him at the top of MotoGP and he has yet to disprove the 'experts'. A look at the top riders in motoGP over the last 3-4 years shows that a background in 250 GP is more beneficial than being raised on superbikes. If Ben can disprove that then he will have done better than Toseland, Byrne, Vermuelen, Edwards, Corser, Bayliss, Xaus, Hodgson and every other superbike rider who thought they could crack GP's. To write off the chances of established riders such as Simoncelli, Aoyoma, Bautista etc on the basis of one test is foolish I think. Just don't count your chickens before they hatch | ||
| Liquorwhere |
If Hayden moves to WSBK, he is not guaranteed a title. He will do better because the talent in WSBK is lower than motoGP and he might have a chance for podiums and maybe wins. I think he would fit very nicely on the Ducati 1198cc and I think the talent in WSBK from top to bottom is better for the entire grid than in GP to be honest. GP is the pinnacle no doubt, but I think there is so much talent in WSBK that you could not say GP has more, in fact, I think it is more that the GP bike is so much different, and this is what separates them, not the level of talent but the way the bike is ridden. Some can ride that way going wide open and so forth and some are not too good at it. Haga is an exceptional talent and he didn't like the GP experience, some are just not into the way you have to ride those bikes. I think Hayden would be a force in WSBK because the bike and the style sets up well for him. Very well... Trojan, As far as the "gay" slurs about Rossi, I am a fan and his personality is the sport right now, without him GP is not the same series, but that rumor has been around for years mate, a long time. Just cause Elvis was the King didn't change the fact he was a pill addicted freak, there is some smoke there and maybe some fire....I have seen the topless girlfriend on the Riviera photos so I know they are making sure he has a cover story, but again that rumor has been persistent for a long long time. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
I would never write off Simoncelli, Barbera , Bautista and Aoyama. I am not that foollish. They will have success in motoGP. But based on their 250ccGP titles and pedigree and their 2stroke experience, they were supposed to do much better than Spies who came (as you Trojan have stated many times)from the "downgraded" AMA superbike world. If someone is thinking that the 250cc "rookies" will do better than Spies, that is really foolish. If someone cannot see what positive "chaos" Spies will make this year, he is blind. I am sure that very soon , the "italian-spanish-I love Rossi" lobby, will start to feel threatened and react the same way they did when Hayden and Stoner won their GP titles. | ||
| Blake |
Nicky Hayden, AMA Superbike Champion, MotoGP Champion. Colin Edwards beats the vast majority of "250 riders" in MotoGP. Ben Spies has already finished well ahead of the majority of "250 riders". I think it is not accurate that an 800cc let alone a 1000cc MotoGP bike shares much more in common with a tiny little 250 versus a superbike. The advantage that the Euro riders have is that they are Euro riders, familiar with the GP system, the tracks, the people, the places, the way things are done, the languages. That makes a HUGE difference. Rossi a homo? That's ludicrous. If he were, it would have been front page news a long time ago. His behavior speaks loudly against that. | ||
| Liquorwhere |
Rossi a homo? That's ludicrous. If he were, it would have been front page news a long time ago. His behavior speaks loudly against that. I don't care either way, but I can tell you this Blake, it has been in the press and there is a Google category for "is Valentino Rossi a homosexual" searched enough that there is a preset category. The press have accused him in Europe for years about it, he has vehemently denied, he has had girlfriends and so forth. Truly I don't care, but it has been a persistent rumor for quite sometime. Google it and see all the reports for yourself if you don't believe me. Now back to racing, the 250cc guys definitely had an advantage coming up on the same tracks, learning the tracks is probably the single hardest thing to do for a rookie in a series. Those that are rookies as GP riders that came from 250cc know 90% of the tracks already, have dealt with the onslaught that is European and world media that the guys in the states have never seen, Hell Rossi could probably walk down the street in most major cities in the US and be recognized by only a few people. They in some cases get to bring a crew chief or tuner with them that is already familiar with the setups the rider likes at each track, their style, it is a huge advantage. When Nicky went over he was rookie of the year, the next year he finished again in the top five and went on later to win a world title, I think that is very significant but I do think he needs to step it up to keep riding in the GP level. John Hopkins, whom I don't care for, is considered by many to be the most talented rider to come out of the states since Keven Schwantz NEVER won a GP race and he started on the 500cc two strokes at a very young age. He only podiumed a few times yet stayed for years and made millions for his "potential". I think he is racing for M4 Suzuki in the states. You have to produce in this day and age, no sponsor wants an 8th place finish or consistent top ten, they want top four, podiums and wins. I think Spies will be electric on that bike, he is so driven and very talented, I felt WSBK would tame him when he first went over, I was happily proven wrong, I won't make that mistake this time, he has proven he is a rare talent. Hopefully we can have a Texas Champion again. I would very much like to have one coming from my adopted home state. Very much. | ||
| Jaimec |
Rossi was interviewed in Times Square two years ago to promote the MotoGP in Indianapolis. Only about one or two people knew who he was. In Times Square in the middle of the week!! Motorcycle racing is FAR too underexposed in this country. Of course, the Euro stars LOVE coming to this country because they CAN walk around in public like "regular folk" and nobody bothers them like in Europe and the Far East. | ||
| Trojan |
The advantage that the Euro riders have is that they are Euro riders, familiar with the GP system, the tracks, the people, the places, the way things are done, the languages. That makes a HUGE difference. I think that you're wrong on some aspects of that one. Most Euro riders don't race on GP tracks until they actually get into GP's for real. An Italian rider may race at Monza or Imola, but he would have no knowledge of tracks outside of his own country, and likewise for British, French, Spanish etc. Teams are all multinational now so language will almost always be a hindrance regardless of rider nationality (Even within all European teams there are huge language difficulties!). Riders get to learn GP tracks by racing in 125 and 250 championships, not by racing in national 250 classes (which is part of the advantage they have over superbike refugees). One the biggest advantages that racing in 250GP gives is a far greater knowledge of chassis setup compared to production based racing. 250 GP bikes are 'fully' adjustable in a way that Superbikes will never be (except maybe the Aprilia RSVR4) and the setup knowledge gained racing in the minor classes is invaluable when making the transition to MotoGP. The last and most important advantage with current GP bikes is that they need high corner speeds to generate enough heat in the hard sidewall Bridgestone tyres. Michelin tyres had harder tred but softer walls, so worked well with the 'back it in, fire it out' cornering style of Doohan, Hayden etc. Bridgestones are different and have softer tread but stiffer sidewalls that require much higher loads to generate heat and load on the tyre. This riding style is thye same as 250 GP so the riders making the transition form that class have a natural advantage. Every once in a while a rider will come along that will buck the trend, and who can change his riding style to suit the bikes. Rossi has changed his riding style completely since the introduction of 800cc MotoGP bikes and even in the last two seasons you can see that he is much smoother and doesn't hang off the bike as much. Edwards raced 250GP bikes for a long time in the US so hasd that experience to draw upon. Hayden has been a shadow of his former self since the 800 rule was introduced and has really never looked like challenging the top 4 since then. Spies may or may not make the transition and become one of the top 4. If he does then he will have more work to do than someone who has been brought up in 125/250GP racing. It is obvious that going form GP to Superbike is easier than doing it the other way around, as ex-GP riders (Biaggi, Checa etc) have won Superbike races every season they have competed. In GP there hasn't been a ex SBK winner for a long time. | ||
| Amafan |
Carlos Checa did not win a race last year,his only 2 wins were at Miller in 2008 . Max Biaggi did not win a race in 2008,and only won 1 race last year at Brno ,and only won that one because Spies was taken out by Fabrizio in that race . | ||
| Trojan |
I didn't mean that those two particular riders had won every year(they were just mentioned as examples), but that ex GP riders had won pretty much every year in WSB as distinct from GP racing where ex WSB riders haven't won since Vermuelen. My whole point is that GP racing favours 250 riders at the moment and that for a Superbike rider to really perform he must not only change his riding style but also learn how to cope with almost infinite chassis adjustability. If Ben Spies can master this then he already has the riding talent to go all the way (and I hope he does), but GP racing is about more than just riding talent these days and he needs to be a master of all the factors involved to make the difference between 4th place and 1st. | ||
| Jaimec |
What Ben has going for him is his team, they've been with him through his AMA days, through WSBK and now are with him on the Tech3 team. In the interviews, Ben claimed NOT to have changed the bike at all, but simply worked on adjusting his riding style. He also has a bit of an advantage in that the guy who did the lion's share of development on that bike is the same height he is (even if he has a slighter build). OTT has an interview with Kevin Schwantz where he predicts that not only will Ben win at least one race this season, but that he will be running with the top three/four in the second half of the season. I already have my seats for Indianapolis reserved... | ||
| Trojan |
OTT has an interview with Kevin Schwantz where he predicts that not only will Ben win at least one race this season, but that he will be running with the top three/four in the second half of the season. Kevin is hardly an unbiased opinion when it comes to the subject of Ben Spies Herve Poncheral (Spies team boss) is a little more circumspect in his prediction for the year ahead. To quote Motomatters.com ' To get the view of Ben Spies' team manager on the question, MotoMatters.com spoke with Herve Poncharal, and put Schwantz' bold claim to the Frenchman. The Monster Yamaha Tech 3 manager was much more cautions than Spies' mentor and former world champion Schwantz. "Kevin obviously has a lot of confidence in Ben," Poncharal said. "Obviously you can never rule out the possibility of a win. Colin came very close to winning at Donington last year," Poncharal said, but the task ahead was not simple. "I really hope Kevin is right, but winning on a regular basis is not easy." Before Spies can beat the Fantastic Four, he first has to catch them, Poncharal pointed out. "The first step is to stay with top four, then to try and beat them. But to stay with them is already tough," the Frenchman told MotoMatters.com.' | ||
| Liquorwhere |
Carlos Checa did not win a race last year,his only 2 wins were at Miller in 2008 . Max Biaggi did not win a race in 2008,and only won 1 race last year at Brno ,and only won that one because Spies was taken out by Fabrizio in that race . Don't forget that Haga was a GP rider with some acclaim when he started riding, then made the statement quoted in "Faster" that he wanted an "analog" not "digital" bike and he has been pretty darn successful in WSBK as well as a tough opponent in GP. So I think Matt is right in this respect. | ||
| Blake |
Sorry Matt, your facts are off as pointed out by Peter (AMAFan). Yet you make the same point, the Euro riders who have ridden the tracks on 125 and 250 have an advantage. It turns out that Ben Spies raced a GP at one point too. But answer this Matt: Why have no MotoGP racers won a World Superbike Championship where a number of Superbike racers have won MotoGP championships? | ||
| Jaimec |
Blake: I assume you mean "BESIDES Troy Bayliss?" | ||
| Amafan |
Troy Bayliss started out as a Superbike champion,and then raced 3 years in MotoGP ,then came back to WSBK to win 2 more championship's . John Kocinski was an AMA 250 champion ,and then won the 250GP world title in 1990,and raced 500GP for a number of years,winning races and finishing 2nd in points a couple of years . In 1996 on a Ducati he was 3rd in points in WSBK ,and the then in 1997 he won the WSBK title on a Honda RC45 . | ||
| Trojan |
But answer this Matt: Why have no MotoGP racers won a World Superbike Championship where a number of Superbike racers have won MotoGP championships? NOBODY coming from WSBK has won a MotoGP championship....ever. That is what I was saying. Back in the old 'slide it around days' US riders had a distinct advantage over European riders because of their dirt track upbringing, so riders could go from US Superbikes to 500GP racing and win. Today's 800cc bikes (and future 1000cc bikes) are not like that and don't lend themselves to that style of riding so favour 250 riders more. This isn't just my opinion but is pretty much accepted as fact everywhere except here for some reason? Another factor is that most MotoGP riders tend to retire from racing once they finish with MotoGP. Only a relative minority go to WSBK and even that has been quite a recent phenomonon really, although even if you look back further you'll see ex GP racers always did quite well (Chili?). However, if you look at the records of ex MotoGP riders in WSBK compared to ex WSBK riders in MotoGP you'll see that they perform relatively better and in a shorter time scale. Superbikes are easier to ride fast than a GP bike because they are much more forgiving and 'softer' than GP bikes, requiring much less setup knowledge and time. This is changing recently and the latest WSBK machines such as the Aprilia are almost as technically challenging and 'razor edge' to ride so that the gap is getting less clearly defined, but generally this is again an aknowledged fact. Simoncelli had never ridden a superbike before getting a podium last year at Imola, and Biaggi and Checa have both adapted very quickly to Superbikes. It is only a matter of time before an ex GP champion wins a Superbike championship. Contrary to what Blake says, and as I said before, most European riders don't get to ride on GP tracks until they actually arrive in GP racing, so there is no real advantage there for them. If you race in the 125 and 250 world championships then of course you will learn the circuits but that is true for any nationality. Future US riders wanting to get into GP racing could do worse than to follow the example of PJ jacobsen http://www.pj99.com/home.html (and now Dakota Mamola) and race in Europe in 125 rather than follow the 'traditional' AMA Superbike route in future as this may lead to better GP chances for them and would certainly give them very early access to GP insiders and gain some useful track knowledge. | ||
| Liquorwhere |
}Future US riders wanting to get into GP racing could do worse than to follow the example of PJ jacobsen http://www.pj99.com/home.html (and now Dakota Mamola) and race in Europe in 125 rather than follow the 'traditional' AMA Superbike route in future as this may lead to better GP chances for them and would certainly give them very early access to GP insiders and gain some useful track knowledge. PJ is going to be a champion one day unless something tragic happens that kid is lightning, really fast. I don't see any riders starting their careers in the AMA roadrace series getting to MotoGP because they won the series in the manner say Nicky Hayden did, I think it will be more like Ben Spies, go to WSBK with a ride and if you do well there you might have a shot at the GP. To me what is going to provide an area for american riders to go to GP will be the transfer of the 600 class Moto2. The premier class in the AMA series is now the 600 bikes, I do not care for the AMA, but in the case of transferring people to world class levels it may be that all the 600cc experience in the states may afford entry into the moto2 series and maybe from there to the GP. I just don't see the sport growing in the states right now, it has been definitely scaled back, the Europeans and Asians are way ahead of us in terms of developing younger riders, it is a shame but true. | ||
| Trojan |
I think the Moto2 route will be the 'de facto' route of choice into MotoGP for any rider now regardless of nationality. It will certainly open things up for Supersport riders and won't mean getting all of the new riders from the ranks of the 125 riders (however long 125 two strokes will last?). I was very surprised to see so few British and US riders in Moto2 this year, and feel that we have been too conservative in our approach to the new format. I have heard far too many good UK riders (including Eugene Laverty) saying that they are going to leave it for a year to see what happens, but by that time they will have missed the boat. Far better to be in at the beginning than try and catch up a year later. I think the US only have Kenny Noyes (another product of the Spanish system) and we have just Scott Redding in Moto2 this year (at least quite a few of the chassis are going to be British if not the riders!). I would certainly like to see Patrick Jacobsen, Jason DiSalvo and Josh Herrin in Moto2 soon, in addition to some decent British talent of course | ||
| Amafan |
PJ Jacobsen is racing in the AMA this year for Celtic racing on a Suzuki GSX-R600 ,and will be racing in the Daytona 200 in 3 weeks ,and has been pre entered into all 10 AMA rounds this yesr .AMA Superbike racers like Nicky Hayden have won many 500/MOTOGP titles ,and that was what Blake was talking about . I can think of only 1 rider to win a 500/MotoGP title from the Spanish system Alex Crevier . | ||
| Trojan |
I can think of only 1 rider to win a 500/MotoGP title from the Spanish system Alex Crevier . Criville I think you'll find  Casey Stoner is also a product of the Spanish system, as are most of the current 125/250 field and a large number of current MotoGP riders (Lorenzo/Espargaro/Pedrosa). The you have the very similar Italian youth system which has so far produced Rossi. Melandri, Capirossi, Biaggi, Simoncelli and many many others. Since the inception of MotoGP superbike riders winning even single races in GP have been the exception rather than the rule. Saying that becaue Hayden has won a title therefore superbike riders are just as suited as 250 riders to current MotoGP bikes doesn't make sense. Hayden won his title on a very different beast to the current bikes. Which is one reason why he struggles now on the Ducati (and previously on the 800 Honda) and won't be in MotoGP in 2011 unless he enjoys a huge improvement in form. Almost EVERY current motoGP rider (with only very few notable exceptions) has come up through the 250 class. Those that get there through other avenues such a Superbike are very much the exception to the rule and have generally been less successful. EVERY GP winner since the adoption of 800cc rules has also been a graduate of 250GP. That is not just because of some freak coincidence is it? | ||
| Amafan |
Dorna is a Spanish run company ,and the switch to 800's favored small Spanish riders like Pedrosa,Ellias,and Lorenzo that were coming up though the GP feeder system ,and that was not a coincidence . | ||
| Liquorwhere |
Dorna is a Spanish run company ,and the switch to 800's favored small Spanish riders like Pedrosa,Ellias,and Lorenzo that were coming up though the GP feeder system ,and that was not a coincidence . I think you are grasping on that one, I believe the combination of Honda wanting it, and Honda has a lot of weight with Dorna, and the wish to slow the bikes down was the reason for the switch. Sete Giberneau, a spanish star and the only one that really had a chance to defeat Rossi on a regular basis at one time, would've and did later on, struggle on the 800, Pedrosa is little, but Lorenzo is not any smaller than any other GP rider, they are small on average. Spain has a love affair with bikes that is not rivaled anywhere that I can see...maybe Belgium and Joel Robert, but other than that one rider...Spain is the ticket 100,000 at a race, that is no small feat and something that just doesn't happen ever in the States...I wish it did. | ||
| Trojan |
I agree, The move to 800cc bikes was proposed and pushed vigourously by Honda (allegedly because they said the 990 bikes were dangerous following the freak accident which killed Dajira Kato - in fact Kato could have had the same accident on a 125). Honda have far too much influence on the FIM and Dorna than any manufacturer should have, but then they supply a huge proportion of the teams and put in a lot of money. It is Honda that single handedly killed off the 250 class and is also developing a 4 stroke 250 single to replace the 125 class in 2013 (yet another one make engine series no doubt). When Honda proposed the 800 rules they obviously had the idea that Pedrosa could clean up on the supposedly lighter and slower bikes, but that has backfired enormously and they haven't won a bean since. Now that the 1000cc rules are being discussed it is Honda that are dragging their heels and wanting to keep the 800 bikes for longer. Why? Because their V5 would be outlawed under the new 1000cc 4 cylinder only rules, so they would be the only manufactuer to HAVE to look for a new engine design. Everyione else could probably adapt what they already have for a 1000cc prototype motor (although they are likely to develop new engines specifically to fit the new rules for best advantage of course, so no real financial saving for the factory teams). The rules will also probably allow 1000cc 'production based' engines (with different fuel capacity and weight limits), but this will probably only appeal to the teams occupying the back half of the grid and will make the series into more of a two tier championship than it already is. | ||
| Jaimec |
Exactly. Sete Gibernau was a MOOSE compared to everyone else on the grid. Now, Rossi and Edwards (and now Ben Spies) are the "Giants" in MotoGP. They are all faster than most of the "smaller" competitors so I don't really see any advantage to a small stature (unless, of course, your factory team builds their bikes specifically around a certain DWARF). | ||
| 46champ |
Matt I just read on Motomatters that the Moto2 engines that Honda is selling to the teams is only going to put out 125 hp. 1. At that level of tuning could one of the factory Aprilla 250's be competitive? 2. Can they still run them? When they originally set up the class that was the case but I don't know now with multiple rule changes in place | ||
| Liquorwhere |
Really? 125hp? I would think those would have much more, wow...I would think a 250cc Aprilia could be very competitive at that number, power to weight being the factor. | ||
| Backcountryme |
Power to weight the 250 should be competitive. But on the cost scale not even close. The whole reason forthe Moto 2 deal as I understand it is to bring down cost and race bikes that are more like the ones on the streets. Face it, 2 stroke racing is dieing. When was the last time you saw a 2 stroke on the street? Motorcycle companies want to race what they sell. |
