| Author | Message | ||
     Buellish |
I found this article on steel v aluminum frames.Interesting stuff. http://www.motorcycledaily.com/21may03steeltrellis frame.htm | ||
| Dragonwing |
An interesting article, with the 'steel v. aluminum' debate once again coming to the forefront. Reminds me of an article that appeared, I believe in Car and Driver Magazine several years ago, concerning the advantages/disadvantages of using aluminum extensively in automobile monocoque body/chassis setups. The consensus was that, initially, at least, the stiffness and weight savings of the aluminum setup was far superior to that of a steel-based vehicle. Note that I said "initially, at least." What the engineers found out, the hard way, was that after a relatively short period on the road, these same vehicles lost a significant amount of their roadholding advantage over their steel-based cousins. Seems that it was discovered that aluminum, when flexed over time (as it would be, naturally, when a vehicle is driven over uneven road surfaces), loses its ability to 'spring back' to its original shape, and consequently loses its stiffness. This is how Porsche found out that drivers were literally running away from their aluminum bodied 928s after only a couple of years. Porsche, after testing some of these examples, found that the cars' torsional rigidity deteriorated as much as 60% after only a few years....making the ride unacceptably mushy. Not at all what the owners expected from their premium sports car. Needless to say, the factory stopped production after only a relatively short time. I'm thinking that this lesson is again being learned by the race teams using aluminum-spar frames? DW | ||
| Terrycoxusa |
I guess that's why they make airplanes out of steel. Oh, wait a minute, they're made out of aluminum and fly for millions of miles. Just say "I like my tuber because it looks like a traditional motorcycle." | ||
| Dragonwing |
Millions of miles, yes. Many years, no. Which is why they're refitted or taken out of service after a relatively short time and scrapped. Hey, I didn't do the testing...just the reporting. DW | ||
| Mmmi_grad |
many newer cars 2003 on in GM have All aluminum sub frame. Thats upfront under the engine.The big H frame. My car has aluminum control arms that are as good as steel, steel frame (2001). I used to visit the big company that does alum ALCOA on business and talked to some of the people there about these alum sub frames. They ofcourse said they were as good as steel. Look for them in montecarlos and the like. | ||
| Snake_oil |
At the production level the japanese use aluminum because they do not have a plentiful supply of chromemoly. While I believe that Buell is the only one to do the aluminum frame right (fuel in frame)I prefer the raw look of the tube frame. I think aluminum work hardens and will get stiffer and crack. Thats one thing the look for on planes. | ||
| Oddball |
Aluminum doesn't have an infinite fatigue life. | ||
| Tom_b |
"Millions of miles,yes.Many years, No" Actually most of the b-52 bombers have been flying for over 50 years, Kc-135 tankers have been flying for over 40years with the original airframes and aren't slated for retirement anytime soon. Most of the mods have been avionics, engine and payload mods. not airframe. Most of the A-10 warthogs have been in service since the early 80's and aren't projected for retirement any time soon The f-14 tomcat was in service over 30 years before it was retired. The f-15 is still in service and has been since the late70's and is projected to be in service till 2020.. what is a relatively short time for aircraft ?? (Message edited by tom_b on February 06, 2010) | ||
| Dragonwing |
Not that I want to argue with you, or anybody, about aircraft...since we were talking about aluminum, but I could just as well say that the Ford Mustang has got to be one of the greatest cars around, since it's been on the road since 1964. Now we all know that's nonsense, as not every Mustang has been driven for the past 46 years, just as B52 airframe #1 isn't still in the air. As a matter of fact, go and Google Map: Davis-Monthan Air Base, and check out the satellite view, where you'll see a photo of no fewer than 4000 military aircraft sitting in the desert sun, awaiting either the cutter, the crusher, sales to some third-world boobs, or service as a target drone for more modern aircraft. Included are many of your vaunted B52s.It's an interesting photo. But, again, I'm just reporting what one land-based vehicle manufacturer discovered with their use of aluminum. Don't really care about aircraft, nor do I see how they relate to motorcycles. DW | ||
| Tom_b |
Actually DW YOU brought it up. there are only 39 b-52's there. they are being used for spare parts as those airframes are fatigued. b-52's are currently in service and were used in afghanistan, iraq as weapons platforms. As are all the other planes listed above except the f-14. Your comparison with a mustang is nonsense as is your alledged indifference but your willingness to make a snide counterpoint. | ||
| Dragonwing |
Now that we've come full circle, thanks for confirming what the Porsche engineers concluded. Like that of their land-based cousins, the aluminum airframes are fatigued, and while they might still appear to be structurally intact, they are no longer suitable for their intended use...and I expect that they are increasingly difficult to fly, mushy even. However, I'm bored with this whole thing, so I'm done. And yeah, I like the look of the tube frame bike better, as well. DW | ||
| Maru |
This is a very interesting thread even if it is starting to turn into a cat fight. Aluminum is the choice of large scale manufacturers like the big Four, probably because it lends itself to volume production. Marketing has convinced us that it is light and pretty and can be very rigid if utilized correctly. It seems to be more challenging to make an aluminum frame than some think. The early MX frames did not seem to work as well as the steel ones they replaced allegedly because they were too stiff in some areas. The top mx teams are rumored to replace frames almost weekly. The steel stuff seems to have a longer service life. I think the steel frame of the Duc is one of the reasons for their success, but it is probably pretty far down the list. | ||
| Blake |
Steel fatigues too. In fact it was the inexplicable (at that time) failures of rail car steel axles that kicked off the whole science of metal fatigue. Thank you Dr. Packman. | ||
| Dragonwing |
It might be one of the big reasons for the Duc's success, in fact. Seems that the lessons taught by Maserati during its glory years of 1959-1961 were not lost on Ducati and Buell. This was the LeMans era of the Type 60,61,63,and 151 "Birdcage" Masers, with frames constructed out of a series of small steel tubes--arguably the first use of space-frame tech in a racing vehicle. The concept was innovative and beautiful back then...and it's still beautiful now, in my humble opinion. DW | ||
| Rickie_d |
Barister (DW) – Your wig must be slightly askew! As a past advisor and consultant to a major corporate in-house legal team, I have seen stronger arguments from junior research paralegals. If you are going to compare four wheels on parallel planes fighting each other with yaw, pitch, and exaggerated torsional twist of having four wiggly points carrying 2tons (static) in sheer with the tetra firma…with two wheels, operating on the same plane, bridged with aluminum, and rolling on a longitude axis then why not throw a plane in too? When Tom brings in aeronautical applications with all the stresses applied at even more axis’s points, flex cycles, while operating inverted to boot, and an in-service time you somehow think he made your point and you came full circle???? Sorry he just made you look silly…or should I say that you did!!! As I stated earlier, how do cars relate to motorcycles? Be sure to hire a Metallurgist (or meteorologist) to explain the AL2 grades used in the three applications, why, and differing manufacturing processes employed before getting back on the stand!!! At least you might consider the grade of aluminum used in the three applications; remember you can’t make a cardboard box out of wrapping paper, but cardboard and wrapping paper are both made out of the same material. I don’t think I could justify using you to defend a single vehicle accident between a bicycle and a curb. (Message edited by Rickie_d on February 07, 2010) | ||
| Tom_b |
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| Rickie_d |
Tom - You have to love or loath an attorney that can’t tell the difference from a mashed potato & french fry!!!!!! I am so relieved that I do not have to work with that political ineptitude any longer!  | ||
| Buell_bert |
Heck my frame is not made out of steel or aluminum and it is definately not as strong or ridgid or supple as it was 30 years ago. But the mind is is is is is is just as sharp. | ||
| Dragonwing |
Oooooh, I think I've just been tag-team punked by Abbott and Costello. I'm so ashamed.........Not! DW | ||
| Rickie_d |
Do some homework DimWit...I am a solo act...and you just punked yourself! Guess you never thought there would be engineers out here on the internet, or even just free thinkers with a little common sense. Get back to work...  | ||
| Tom_b |
(Message edited by tom_b on February 08, 2010) | ||
| Dragonwing |
Now, RickyDee, let me ask you this: While you didn't have a job and were whoring yourself out to a "major corporate in-house legal team" did you charge them extra to be a douche bag, or was that all part of the package deal? What a dope! DW | ||
| Kmbuell |
DeeDoubayou, Gotta love when the only way you can defend your position is to call some one names. Is it double teamed when everyone else thinks you're wrong? Looks like you're out on this one. Next time gather real facts and when you are wrong, admit fault and back away. Carefully, so you don't step in the BS traps you've laid out, very carefully. Kevin | ||
| Dragonwing |
Ya know, in hindsight, I apologize to the members of this forum for my bad behavior. The fact is, I'm not advocating any position here, and I don't really give a rat's azz less if a bike is made of aluminum, steel, papier mache, or deviled ham. If it's ridable, that's all I care about. | ||
| Rickie_d |
DW - No need to apologize on my account…I don’t really give a rats ass either. When I am bored and someone sticks their ass out the window, I whack it with a stick on my way by just for shits and giggles. In that advisory gig, you are right; it was not much of a job!!! It was the biggest bureaucratic circle jerk I was ever involved in. They held me hostage for the knowledge I possessed just to keep it quiet. I made them look silly everyday for the 4 years I was there until they were so pissed they let me move on. Now I am actually productive | ||
| Tom_b |
There are nine basic groups of aluminum withover 17,000 different grades within these basic nine. Comparing whatever type of aluminum used in application to another without knowing exactly what grade is pretty useless. Steel is divided into 3 basic grades, low, middle and high carbon steel. The european standards have 6 basic groups. regrdless, steel has more than 22,000 different grades within the basic grades. So it is even more futile to compare steel to aluminum without knowing what exactly your comparing. I personally will never push any m/c i own hard enough to tell a difference. But i sure do think a tube ladder style frame is sexy as carmen electra in a swimsuit.. I just like to post when thing start getting weird (Message edited by tom_b on February 08, 2010) | ||
| Court |
I do a lot of litigation support . . . and I ALWAYS charge extra for being a douchebag. If the attorneys knew as much about the subject matter as I do they could tell me to go screw myself and pocket the money. When my attorney started charging $740/hr . . .I thanked her for letting me know what the "going rate" was. It's fabulous getting paid to do lit support work in Manhattan without the hassle of having to sit through another Civil Procedure Class. Between "playing an attorney and working as a Professor at Columb1a" I keep thinking about quiting my day job. There are a number of us on BadWeb who are total and complete douche bags and I, on behalf of all of them, thank you for the compliment. One of the things we have all learned is to be quite careful who you call names on BadWeb. The funniest story . . . well, two of them, were the fellow who challenged Blake on frame construction not knowing Blake's role in the structural design of the B2 bomber and the guy who I asked "what the hell are you, a rocket scientist?" who replies "yes sit, I work for NASA". He did, was smart as a whip and was quickly moved to East Troy and assimilated at Buell as an Elf. Funny world. | ||
| Hugie03flhr |
While you guys are arguing I have a question about the alum. frames. I remember Kaw. saying their frames were "pre stressed". To my understanding that means the frame is forced into position and then welded. This is why these frames cannot be fixed when damaged. I would think the fatigue on an alum. frame over time it would lose the "prestressed" rigidity. Am I off base with this thought? | ||
| Rickie_d |
Hugie - We like to call these debates as opposed to arguments! Here is an explanation„³http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prestressed_structure | ||
| Tom_b |
I understand pre stressed in architecture, but not in m/c frames. this is an interesting point that the link posted doesn't really explain as to the automotive and m/c applications. GOOD point hugie. Lets hear some INTELLIGENT discussion.. Blake?? (Message edited by tom_b on February 08, 2010) |
