| Author | Message | ||
     Jules |
I've read a couple of threads on cold start issues and my 09 "R" definately has some issues. The bike has a grand total of 45 miles on the clocks (only bought her last week) and is a royal pain in the arse to start when cold. It's just above freezing here and my commute to work is quite short (only 5 miles) so i know it's far from ideal conditions but this is rediculous. I needed a jump start to get home tonight, really embaressing! I am really careful not to touch the throttle when starting the bike but it's definately flooding, in fact I found tonight that if i switched the ignition off and then turned it back on there was a "detonation" noise even before I pressed the starter (definately too much unburnt fuell in there). Unfortunately I am off on a camping trip this weekend and taking the bike with me, but have little/no confidence that she'll start now :-( I have the other "warning light" issues too but can live with that, but the lack of starting is not something I can live with. I know I need to take it to the dealership but wondered if there was anything i should try in the meantime. I keep the bike in a garage overnight and on a battery tender.. | ||
| Grav3l |
As far as I can tell the battery is very weak in these bikes. I went to get the flash updated and that killed the battery. Dealer jumped bike, drove home 30 miles, went out this morning to ride to work and bike wouldn't crank over, temp was mid to low 40's. | ||
| Ratbuell |
batterytenderbatterytenderbatterytenderbatterytend er. 5 miles is too short, you don't recharge from starting in that short a distance. And they do NOT charge at idle. I plug mine in every night, and I'm about 15 miles each way to/from work. Rule of thumb - if you start it, ride it for 30 minutes. When I can do that, I don't worry about the tender as much. Another issue you may run into is condensation in the oil from the short rides - you're not burning off water that condenses in there, and you're gonna get milky white oil when you change fluids. Longer rides keep the oil hot enough long enough to burn out the water. | ||
| Jules |
Cheers for the responses - I was planning on changing the oil much more frequently as i know there'll be a lot of condensation after runs of that distance. The battery had a reasonable amount of life in it - but the bike was flooded, I guess i should just have waited 15 mins to see if it cured itself but I was impatient and tried again (a few times!) Well, I'll try the optimate every night and see if that helps... And I know I need to take it out for a longer ride - can't wait for better weather... | ||
| Ccryder |
Jules: Especially in your scenario: battery tender,battery tender, battery tender, battery tender. Make sure your battery cables are all tight including the one to the starter relay under the seat on the LH side. | ||
| Chevycummins |
I also think you have a discharged battery or weak battery. See if you can get it to charge up all the way, should be close to 12.8 volts after off the charger for a few hours. Mine is usually at 12.6 to 12.8V when not on a tender. Even with a good charged battery the volts are pulled down low when cranking, the ecm on this bike seems to be very sensitive to low voltage and will cause hard starting, false codes and flooding when the voltage is too low. If it does flood, hold the throttle all the way open and then switch on the ignition, this will put it in deflood mode where it will fire the plugs rapidly without cranking to dry them out. | ||
| Jules |
If it does flood, hold the throttle all the way open and then switch on the ignition, this will put it in deflood mode where it will fire the plugs rapidly without cranking to dry them out. Ohhhh - that might explain the "detonation" I get when turning the ignition on with the throttle open Thanks for that, very useful info | ||
| Hildstrom |
What oil are you running? The normal 20W-50 is not good for starting when it is "just above freezing". You should think about changing it to 10W-40 or 5W-40 for starting near or below freezing. Check the water/acid level in your battery. A few weeks ago I went to the car port to start the 1125 and the FZR when it was about 42 degrees out. The 1125 cranked very slow, but eventually started. The FZR cranked slow for a few seconds and then quit. I pulled the battery to charge it in the garage and I noticed that it had no detectable water/acid left in it. I topped off all of the cells with distilled water, it read 12.4 volts, and it started the bike without charging. | ||
| Jules |
Bearing in mind I have had the bike for just a week and it's got under 50 miles on it I am running whatever oil it left the dealership with... Sorry but I don't know what they put in it, I'll give them a call tomorrow and mention the faults and ask them though.. I'll check the electrolyte on the weekend, but the battery feels strong enough - it only went flat after I'd cranked it for a few minutes which is about all I could expect from a bike battery. Hopefully it'll be OK in the morning after a night on the battery tender  | ||
| Sparky |
I'd consider extending a 5 mile commute to at least 10 miles just for the benefit of fully warming up the engine. Just zig zagging across town would probably do it. If you can get some heat into the garage, that would help cranking the motor over. Even a small electric radiant heater on a timer turned on an hour before you start the bike would likely help. | ||
| Syonyk |
It's a Buell. Apparently, nobody in engineering though that someone might ride it below about 40F. Mine starts like crap in the cold - it takes several presses of the starter for it to light off, cranking significantly slower each time. So far, it's never left me stranded... Also, apparently, how you turn it off massively affects battery drain - use the kill switch, then turn the key off, or it drains your battery in a hurry. I'd suggest taking it into the dealership to have them look at it, but they'll probably tell you the same thing they told me - "Battery & charging system is normal..." - so I can only assume "kills the battery in under a week and a half" is a design feature. You SHOULD NOT HAVE TO PLUG A BIKE IN AT NIGHT unless it's an electric motorcycle. That's absolutely absurd for a 2008 or later model year vehicle. Leave it for 4-5 months without riding? Yeah, a battery tender is fine. Leave it for a week? If it can't do that without being plugged in, something is not right. | ||
| Ccryder |
Julian and others please read below. 1) All Buell Batteries are AGM (no water is needed, much less can be added) 2) Especially on the 1125 you need to keep the rpm's around 5,000 to keep the battery charged. 3) A short commute like you are riding will not make up the charge loss due to starting, especially in cold weather. 4) If the battery never was charged to 100%, with the short commutes, it never will be 100%. (We have seen that in many instances) 5) In colder weather batteries discharge faster/ do not have as much charge compared to warm weather. 6) Make sure all your battery connections are tight. 7) Use the correct weight oil. 8) The 1125 engines are very tight until broken in. This can greatly add to the cranking load. Russell do some research and you will understand a lot and not look so foolish in your post (IMHO and experience). After 34,000 miles on my 1125rt, these are some of the things I have learned. You choose to listen or not it's your choice but, it has worked for me and many others. Later Neil S. | ||
| Froggy |
None of my Buell's have issues starting down to 20°F. Below that is when it starts to complain, but it still starts are runs great. As for the tender, I use the security feature even in my garage, so I rotate who is getting charged every once in a while, but even the bikes that haven't been tendered in a while fire no complaints. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
LOL. sounds like you had a something against Buell before you bought the bike...guess a 50% off sale was too much to ignore, huh? | ||
| Mikezx9r |
It's a Buell. Apparently, nobody in engineering though that someone might ride it below about 40F. Mine starts like crap in the cold - it takes several presses of the starter for it to light off, cranking significantly slower each time. So far, it's never left me stranded... Also, apparently, how you turn it off massively affects battery drain - use the kill switch, then turn the key off, or it drains your battery in a hurry. I'd suggest taking it into the dealership to have them look at it, but they'll probably tell you the same thing they told me - "Battery & charging system is normal..." - so I can only assume "kills the battery in under a week and a half" is a design feature. You SHOULD NOT HAVE TO PLUG A BIKE IN AT NIGHT unless it's an electric motorcycle. That's absolutely absurd for a 2008 or later model year vehicle. Leave it for 4-5 months without riding? Yeah, a battery tender is fine. Leave it for a week? If it can't do that without being plugged in, something is not right. LOL. sounds like you had a something against Buell before you bought the bike...guess a 50% off sale was too much to ignore, huh? It seems like what happens a lot here is that people would rather figure a way around an issue than to actually admit there is an issue with the bike(s). I agree that the battery shouldnt discharge that fast, especially a new battery. Around here, if someone has a complaint, there is an assumption made that they have something against Buells and they should sell their bike. I bought my bike because of how cheap they became. personally, I would be furious if I paid full price for my bike. These bikes are not worth the $12k MSRP they had. Im keeping mine for a while to give it a chance. It hasnt left me stranded yet, but I will admit I cross my fingers every time I start it. Thats not something I should have to do on a brand new bike. Im not saying I regret buying my bike yet. It was cheap and different. If I end up selling it and lose a thousand or two dollars, Ill just chalk it up to a lesson learned and stay away from Buell. If I come to feel I can live with its "quirks" (issues), then I will keep it for a while.} | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Around here, if someone has a complaint, there is an assumption made that they have something against Buells and they should sell their bike. My comment is directed to the snide "It's a Buell" comment. Here's a hint for the quick discharging issue....some of the old '08 clusters caused a drain on the battery--it has nothing to do with how you turn the bike off. Trust me, it was a huge issue when the bike came out in late '07.... Instead of bitching and moaning or snotty comments, try the search function. | ||
| Mhpalin |
mikezx9r just my 2 cents worth my 09 cr is worth ever cent of the 14500cdn I paid for it runs great never let me down 12000 fun kms can't wait till spring. what kind of problems have you had? | ||
| Syonyk |
I have researched the cluster discharge issue. I'm aware of it, and feel it's likely part of the problem. A 2+ year old battery when I got the bike is probably another part of it, as a friend with the same bike, same age, who had the battery replaced by the dealership before he rode off with it hasn't had the same problems with cold cranking, but it still doesn't like to start in the cold. Also, I've taken it into the local Harley dealership with the specific complaint of "It drains the battery in just over a week of sitting; I believe there's a service bulletin about a cluster issue." Two hours later, I got it back with the report, "Battery and charging system are fine, shouldn't be any problems" - based on the cluster not resetting the trip mileage, they never even put an ammeter inline to see what it was drawing amperage-wise when shut off. I'm not really sure what else to do except accept that if I don't ride it regularly, I'd better have it on a charger. For a 2008 model year bike. I don't have the HD computer systems or access to do this work myself, so I have to take it into a dealership, and I get the strong impression that they really don't care. This is when I'm not getting weird looks from the other people there for having reflective gear & a helmet. As for cold starting, yes, the 40 degree comment was snarky, but I've had it down below 20F, where I'm still happy to ride, and cold soaked to 15-18F, it was not pleased about being asked to start. This is not an issue I expected with a modern, fuel injected bike - it's no improvement over a '79 Honda CX500 I rode for several years. I'm fairly certain the fuel injected bikes of other manufacturers will start easily in the cold - I know multiple people who commute in the single digit temperatures and below. I commute 35+ miles/day on my bike, and usually average between 50 and 70 miles per day, mostly highway. I shouldn't be having ANY battery capacity issues, but that doesn't stop the low battery light from coming on - I've had it come on in traffic before, have complained about it, and was told everything was normal. I really, really enjoy riding the bike. It's great fun to commute on, and it's a blast to ride on the weekends. Living with it is a bit more challenging. The bike feels like a mix of brilliant engineering and "Eh, that's good enough, go work on something else." The front brake is great, but has a ton of lever slack before it engages, unlike most other modern bikes. The fuel system boiling fuel, puking it overboard, and generally stinking up a garage is completely absurd. They fixed it on the CA bikes, and never thought that anyone in the rest of the world might care about puddles of gas in their garage. The battery drain and cold start issues are, again, absurd for a modern motorcycle to have problems with. I agree with Mikezx9r that this does not feel like a $12k bike. It's simply not nearly as refined as other bikes in the same price range. And, yes, I know "Buell isn't about refined" - but that still doesn't mean it should be puking fuel out in my garage. That's just bad engineering. The bike is a good bike with a few rough edges. This would be a lot less irritating if it came with tolerable service, but my experience with service has been horrible. I specifically asked about recalls and ECU flashes before I took delivery of the bike, as I was aware of the multiple ECU flashes. I was told that all the recalls & flashes were done. A week later, the turn signals were replaced, and when I took it in (to a different dealership) for the 620 mile service, the kickstand spring recall and ECU flash were done. This second dealership is the one who looked at a battery draining issue & told me that it was perfectly normal. I'll move this into another thread to avoid cluttering up this one. | ||
| Jules |
Instead of bitching and moaning or snotty comments, try the search function. I don't think I am "bitching & moaning" so hopefully that comment wasn't aimed my way. I did use the search function and found some useful info on this but as a few people have now had the bike for over a year I wondered if there was any new info. I know the commute is really short but every other bike I have had has managed it, including my old X1 so I am a bit disappointed - not to the extent that I think this is a "bad" bike and hopefully as the engine loosens things will start to get better. I'll mention the cluster issues and starting issues to the dealer today and when it's in for the 620 mile service they can have a look... Hopefully that won't be long now LOL Thanks again for the helpful suggestions, I'll try using the kill switch to turn it off and try the WOT when turning it on (if flooded) and see what happens. Jules | ||
| Jules |
I have a confession to make....... Although the bike is brand new I have done a couple of mods, one is the K&N filter (which should not cause this) but the other is an exhaust mod.... I have drilled a couple of holes straight through the outlet pipes and through the first "bend" inside the exhaust. Obviously they were only designed to make a bit more nose (which they do). I then fitted some turnouts on to the end to stop the rear wheel from getting covered.. I am concerned now that I have reduced the backpressure and that might account for the flooding (?) I must admit I didn't expect that (otherwise I would not have done it) but I am worried now that I f*cked up... Dealer is picking the bike up later... Don't think I'll fess up to them though I'll wait and see what they say.. Bugger - I am annoyed at myself now! | ||
| Ccryder |
Julian, I doubt if your mods have influenced your issues. Russell, IIRC the I/C drain issue was an 08' issue and it only showed up at random times. You may have a point with your 2yo battery if it was drained over the past 2 years and there were a few that could have been marginal. WHat will it hurt to us a good quality battery tender on your battery for a few days to see if that helps? Try getting it fully charged a few times after your ride. Time4Breakfast Neil S. BTW, you need to have a little thicker skin here on the net and life in general it tends to give you a better perspective (IMHO) | ||
| Jules |
Julian, I doubt if your mods have influenced your issues. How I hope that's true I must admit I don't think it is the root cause either, I have done similar things on lots of my other bikes and never had this issue but I've started to doubt myself now... Really must learn to be more patient. | ||
| Sportster_mann |
Jules, where in the UK are you ? Just being nosey as a fellow Brit ! As to the battery issue - it's possible that the battery has discharged whilst standing in the showroom - get it fully charged and see how it goes. As others have said, starting does drain the battery somewhat ( as a consequence of it being a large V-twin ) so it does take a bit of mileage to recharge it. I have a 2008 R that I ride most days - normally put it on a battery tender every couple of months just to be on the safe side. But it had been standing in my garage for 5 weeks over December/January and started with no problem - even though it hadn't been on a charger. | ||
| Kaotikevo |
Mine (09) sat from thanksgiving day to january 15th without the tender, temperatures varied from 40-0 degrees, leaning toward the colder temps, and she wouldn't start in the garage on a 20 degree day. She tried like hell, but just couldn't do it. As I look at the situation I have to look art these conditions; questionable battery from h.d.dealership break in oil too heavy Colder than a witch's tit tight-pre-breakin-engine after taking all this into account, I have to say that, although somewhat frustrating, this experience should not be considered odd at all. If I need to get a new battery, so be it, if I have to plug it in at night, who cares?!? I bought this bike because it's an american superbike, and if it suffers from some of the same conditions as my coworkers, then so it shall be, but until she lets me down where it counts,I'm happy as hell with my buell. | ||
| Zac4mac |
I had issues with flooding/starting when Loretta was new. If it's near 10 dF she has a little trouble starting but otherwise, no issues. I plug the tender in occasionally. IF you are riding below 40 dF ambient, dump the 20w-50 and use 10w-40... big difference. 23.6k miles, running Red Line 10w-40 until May or June. Zack | ||
| Jules |
Sportster_mann - I am in Gloucester but regularly commute into London (the company I work for was recently "acquired" by a French Energy Company) I really appreciate the hints & tips everyone. I'm not really concerned about the issue as such, it's not really impacting on my enjoyment of owning a Buell, I have long been a fan of the marque and this isn't putting me off at all. The dealership collected the bike an hour ago and as is typical when I went to demonstrate the problem she fired up first press of the button and idled beautifully "D'Oh!" Something I did do differently was to stop the bike using the kill switch rather than the key as i normally would and then to do the "deflood procedure" before parking her up. 3 Hours later when the Dealer arrived I turned the key, hit the button and off she went. I was tempted to tell him to leave her here but as he's promised I'll have her back for Friday's camping trip I figured it was better to let them have a look.. Thanks again for the help everyone.} | ||
| Ratbuell |
I just don't get it. I have 5 Buells in the garage, from a 95 S2 to an 09 CR. The only one with an issue is the '01 M2L that we bought last summer - it had no battery tender lead on it, and the battery is now dead. I chalk that up to lack of battery maintenance by the PO; the battery has no date buttons removed from the sticker so I have no idea how old it is/isn't. Come spring, it'll get a new battery and a tender lead. No biggie. My CR - which is NOT broken in yet, only has about 400 miles on it at the moment - starts every time, regardless of how cold it is. I ride in cold, but I try to keep the CR and its nice, currently clean black bodywork, off the salted roads - hence the reason for the low miles. I may have to crank it a couple times to get it to start, but I have yet to have a battery-dead issue with it (and it has the Buell heated grip kit on it - I installed them the night I got the bike home). And I never touch the kill switch. Key turns it on; key turns it off. I also have yet to have a fuel-puke (or even a fuel smell) issue, and I've even shortened my breather/overflow hose (because I removed the passenger pegs and mounts). I fill to the lower 'ring' in the filler neck, every time. I work 15 miles from home. I ride right to work because I'm not a morning person and never get up in time for a longer ride, and weather permitting take the "long way" home. My bikes idle for at least 30 seconds before shutdown, every time (comes from having turbocharged cars and trucks - idling cuts oil coking in the turbo). Currently the CR lives on a tender in the garage...but I'll try leaving it unplugged for a bit and see how it does. My '06 Uly? Still has the factory battery in it...and we all know how many "major problems" those had. I find it hard to believe it's "A Buell Thing". I've got five of the damned things, and they just DON'T act up. At least not for me - and I know I'm not that good (or lucky). Matter of fact, the only warranty repair I've had is for one of my Uly saddlebag latches. Do your research. Find out what RPMs the bike charges in, and ride it there. It is NOT an I4, nor does it have an I4 charging system. The bikes are fine. Learn how to care for them and how to ride them properly and they will reward you in spades. Just ask my 15 year old S2, which is still going strong. | ||
| Hildstrom |
"It's a Buell. Apparently, nobody in engineering thought that someone might ride it below about 40F." Really? The Recommended Engine Oils table in the owner's manual specifically recommends 10W-40 for below 40 degrees. But maybe you're right and somebody in accounting shoved that row in there as a prank. https://www.buell.com/om/99480-08Y_en/file-6.asp#t able-hdtopic007160-1 | ||
| Kaotikevo |
"It's a Buell. Apparently, nobody in engineering thought that someone might ride it below about 40F." Really? The Recommended Engine Oils table in the owner's manual specifically recommends 10W-40 for below 40 degrees. But maybe you're right and somebody in accounting shoved that row in there as a prank. LOL, i just "puked fuel" all over my monitor!! that's too funny | ||
| Syonyk |
Sorry, should have used 20F as my cutoff, since that's where it goes from reliably starting to "Maybe I'll start." Just apply the regex 's/40F/20F/g' to the page. |
